Anyone else sick of all the bullshit...

baraka

Heineken Helen wrote:

I genuinely don't think it IS possible

We can take things like this in our day to day lives... you tell yourself that if you got a raise of 100 per week... you could save 5,200 a year... but that's soooo not true. Most people, if they get an extra 100 per week, they live to their means and find something that they MUST spend that extra money on. So we tell ourselves if we won the lottery, all the great things we do with all that money - BOLLOX!!!!!!! Then we tell ourselves if we were in power, there are so many great things we could do for our people and our country - MORE bollox.

Human nature, I suppose. I have to believe there are those that can rise above it, not many, but an enlightened few. maybe? hopefully?

baraka

chopitdown wrote:

in politics I'd have to say it would be almost impossible to avoid corruption, no matter how noble the cause. The simple reason being that politics attracts people who want power on some level and there is going to be some person who is willing to do almost anything. Look at the presidents who have served 2 terms since nixon. I believe all of them had some sort of scandal in their 2nd term. It seems that if you stay around long enough the dirty laundry / corruption will surface.

Do you feel there is no way around this for anyone? I realize the stats are grim.

Jeanie

baraka wrote:

Yes it does Jeanie! Need to stay positive.............:D

Cool!! I'm on a roll here!! Helped you with the pessimism and made a positive lunch suggestion on the I'm Hungry thread!!

Feel I'm getting my Pollyanna back!!

tybird

If you're sick of the bullshit, quit walking through the pasture.

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

Yeah, I agree with that Helen, but I also think that people are united when they need to be. Ultimately I learned a lot from my Grandmother who is in her 80's and has lived through practically everything! She said they can do what they will, it hasn't really affected her living her life in that she has loved and been loved and has just got on with it. And she's made sure that she's voted whenever the opportunity has arisen. And she has protested whenever she felt she had to. And she's happy with how her life has gone so far.

I'm just so grateful to live in a democracy that allows me to speak when I feel the need to. I often think about how hideous my life might have been had I not been born into this lucky set of circumstances.

And I turn off the bastards whenever they pop up on the tele or radio.
Find it makes things a whole lot happier.

It's annoying I can't remember who made that quote, think I might have to google it!

Your grandmother sounds great . Don't get me wrong, I ALWAYS vote.. and I always wonder what the bloody point is

And I'm always grateful for the men and women who came before me to GIVE me the right to vote and to give us the great country we COULD have... I'm not so sure they'd be overly impressed with the state of politics here these days though

Heineken Helen

tybird wrote:

If you're sick of the bullshit, quit walking through the pasture.

I've got nothing

chopitdown

baraka wrote:

Do you feel there is no way around this for anyone? I realize the stats are grim.

Put term limits on everyone...very short term limits. And once you have served your term you can only serve in another branch for one term. Or decrease the pay / benefits so that if you want to be a career politician you really will be there to serve the people not your own pocketbook

Get people of good character to run. I think if you have the majority of people in the gov't that have good character (whatever party or belief system they are) then you'll have good govt.

TheVoiceInside

Here is a sample of a decaying democracy.

Single-chamber claim reaches the Capitol
Posted: Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 03:39 PM
By LAURA N. PEREZ SANCHEZ

SAN JUAN (AP) – Leaded by more than 20 trucks from the Teamsters union, thousands marched toward the Capitol with a single claim: the legislators must respect democracy and validate the people’s will expressed in the referendum which favored unicameralism.

The leaders of the organizations that had publicly supported the single-chamber system –businessman Adolfo Krans, Julio Muriente and several Popular Democratic Party (PDP) and Puerto Rican Independence Party politicians- were carrying a red, blue and green banner which reads “The vote must be respected”, slogan which was repeated on the banners that the demonstrators were carrying.

Movimiento Independentista Nacional Hostosiano Co-President Héctor Pesquera and one of the event’s organizers, said he was satisfied with the people’s support.

The pro-independence leader said this is only the beginning of many events ahead to make the Legislature respect the results of the 2005 referendum in which 83.8% of the voters chose to turn the Legislature into a single-chamber system.



These are some very depressing times here in PR. when 83% vote to change the legislative branch from a bicameral system to a unicameral one and that very legislature just tosses the votting results aside and wont do as the people have told them to do. I begin to question the validity of my democracy.

Heineken Helen

chopitdown wrote:

Put term limits on everyone...very short term limits. And once you have served your term you can only serve in another branch for one term. Or decrease the pay / benefits so that if you want to be a career politician you really will be there to serve the people not your own pocketbook

Get people of good character to run. I think if you have the majority of people in the gov't that have good character (whatever party or belief system they are) then you'll have good govt.

Ok well one thing we HAVE done well here is that anybody in government cannot have shares or any financial interest in any companies... of course there are always brown envelopes, and it they're caught it's very very strict. We have tribunals that go on for decades and end only when the accused dies of natural causes :rolleyes:

tybird

Heineken Helen wrote:

I've got nothing

Oh, yes you do Helen, you're a winner in our book. Yes, it all seems like shit sometimes...but if you let hope die, then it is all shit.

As for "power to the people" and "overthrow the government," we have seen how well that worked in Russia/Soviet Union/Russia and many of the post-colonial African nations.

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

Your grandmother sounds great . Don't get me wrong, I ALWAYS vote.. and I always wonder what the bloody point is

And I'm always grateful for the men and women who came before me to GIVE me the right to vote and to give us the great country we COULD have... I'm not so sure they'd be overly impressed with the state of politics here these days though

It's interesting that you say that Helen, because my family are only here in Australia because the politics where so bad in Ireland back a 100 years ago that my family immigrated because they wanted a better life.

And I guess because of that we have always, as a family, watched the political climate in Ireland with interest. I really thought that things were getting much better there. But then I'm sure that it's as you say, and your pollies are as bad as ours are here. And across the globe so it would seem.
We really can't rely on the media anymore for accurate information about what the world's politicians are up to. Or the corporations either for that matter.

I vote and wonder why I bother too. But I'll keep doing it, even though it only encourages the bastards!!

My Granny rocks!! She's as sharp as a tack! And I reckon there's so many good things about her that I can forgive her making me suffer through Val Doonigan and The Irish Rovers for most of my life!!

onelongsong

Heineken Helen wrote:

we're fed on a daily basis by governments ALL over the world? Be it George, or Tony, or Tom, or Bertie or whatever the fuck your president/prime minister is called... they're ALL full of shit. NONE of them have 'the peoples' best interests in mind... so get over it. We can argue all day every day about whether or not the US president is worse than the Iranian one... they're all fucking liars and all as bad as eachother. I don't care which lie YOU find to be the best but I don't want any of them.

So... Iranian waters? Iraqi waters? Who knows? Who to believe? Which lie SOUNDED the most genuine?

We, like the US, have elections coming up and I personally find all the lies we're being fed right now hilarious. Of COURSE if we vote them in for a third term they WILL do sooooooooo much for the good of this country... but hang on, what the fuck was wrong with the first TWO terms? Is it third time lucky or something?

Don't mind me... I'm really tired... but sometimes I wonder why you all argue over WHICH world leader we should believe and WHEN! My advice? None of them. Even in Northern Ireland... a 'country' with probably THE most fucked up 'government' of the lot... they manage to sit together every so often and agree to give themselves a payrise :rolleyes: . Ya rarely hear them fighting over THAT.

those who know the least usually complain the most. what have you done to change things?

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

See, I think it's mainly working class countries that are capable of overthrowing governments... we used to be pretty good at it here too but then we got rich and once we have a government that puts economy before all else, we get complacent. Ok, I really don't think the problems here are THAT bad compared to a lot of countries obviously but things can always be better. They're quick enough to build headquarters for multinationals while our kids are attending schools in prefabs and general shit like that.

Ah! Sorry Helen, just noticed this one. I must have missed it before.

But yes I agree, it seems as soon as the economy takes off people become less willing to fight for their rights. It's sad.

Sounds like the multinationals have taken over there as well.

They're like a plague.

We have the same problems here. The government has sold out every asset from under us and pretty much all is now privately owned by offshore companies with profits going overseas. And service standards dropping everyday. It's too sad when I think about the ramifications of that long term.

But yes our kids and health care and other community services are suffering because of it. It must be a world wide phenamonen (?).
Be all those World Economic Forum freaks and their meetings me thinks.

Binaural

Heineken Helen wrote:

Even in Northern Ireland... a 'country' with probably THE most fucked up 'government' of the lot... they manage to sit together every so often and agree to give themselves a payrise :rolleyes: . Ya rarely hear them fighting over THAT.

The reason we don't have a government is because of those biggoted fuckers in the DUP. So help me if I ever met Ian Paisley I'd hurt him :mad:

Heineken Helen

tybird wrote:

Oh, yes you do Helen, you're a winner in our book. Yes, it all seems like shit sometimes...but if you let hope die, then it is all shit.

As for "power to the people" and "overthrow the government," we have seen how well that worked in Russia/Soviet Union/Russia and many of the post-colonial African nations.

Oh just cos I've no hope in politics doesn't mean I've let 'hope' in general die. Politicians have always been the most corrupt and greedy kinda people and it seems like, as mentioned here, that the best of people with the best of intentions, change when given all that power... so I certainly wouldn't want any of it.

Somebody asked me what have I done about it? I think this thread is asking what CAN be done about it?????????????????? Unless I get the entire population of my country wiling to actually stage some kinda coup, there really is not very much I can do. Yes, I can vote, I can vote for the same fuckers under a different name, or I can vote for the good people (I'm sure there's one or two) effectively making my vote ineffective... sounds like the best option to me.

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

It's interesting that you say that Helen, because my family are only here in Australia because the politics where so bad in Ireland back a 100 years ago that my family immigrated because they wanted a better life.

And I guess because of that we have always, as a family, watched the political climate in Ireland with interest. I really thought that things were getting much better there. But then I'm sure that it's as you say, and your pollies are as bad as ours are here. And across the globe so it would seem.
We really can't rely on the media anymore for accurate information about what the world's politicians are up to. Or the corporations either for that matter.

I vote and wonder why I bother too. But I'll keep doing it, even though it only encourages the bastards!!

My Granny rocks!! She's as sharp as a tack! And I reckon there's so many good things about her that I can forgive her making me suffer through Val Doonigan and The Irish Rovers for most of my life!!

Oh things ARE good here, they're really good for the middle class, pretty good for the working class, EXCELLENT for the already wealthy and probably pretty crap for the poor. I know it could be a whole lot worse but I really don't understand why, in this unstable global economy of today, we make ourselves so reliant on American companies... if America pulled all their companies out of Ireland tomorrow, we'd be back to where we were in the 80s. So why, when we have all this money at our disposal right now, aren't we using it to make our country more self reliant? It makes absolutely NO sense to me. It's very hard to go into a supermarket and fill a BASKET with solely Irish goods... even Guinness and Jameson are owned by Diageo (which sounds creepily like diablo) for fuck sake. Next thing you'll have Americans able to buy shares in the Cliffs of Moher... or they probably already can.

It's like the whole Sellafield crap... every couple of years our government WILL bring the British government to some European court demanding that they shut it down. The European court will say no, our government tell us 'well we tried' and that's the end of it til people start acting up again :rolleyes: . American troops will stopover at Shannon, people will complain and they'll say 'but the American's are our friends, we must let them use our airport', but we're a fucking 'NEUTRAL' country we don't have to let them militarily do anything. Argh, I dunno... but I've just realised that I'm much more political in the morning than any other time of the day Interesting.

Heineken Helen

Binaural wrote:

The reason we don't have a government is because of those biggoted fuckers in the DUP. So help me if I ever met Ian Paisley I'd hurt him :mad:

What do you think of all the stuff happening now? Seriously, if I lived in the north I'd be fairly fucking pissed off... Each sides have their own agendas and they'll probably sit down for a week and manage to be civil for maybe an hour and then the guns will come out again. I dunno why they don't just have a big shake up of the major politicians in the north. Bertie and Tony must often feel like they're trying to separate two kids fighting over who got the biggest piece of pie :rolleyes:

evenkat

Heineken Helen wrote:

Oh just cos I've no hope in politics doesn't mean I've let 'hope' in general die. Politicians have always been the most corrupt and greedy kinda people and it seems like, as mentioned here, that the best of people with the best of intentions, change when given all that power... so I certainly wouldn't want any of it.

Somebody asked me what have I done about it? I think this thread is asking what CAN be done about it?????????????????? Unless I get the entire population of my country wiling to actually stage some kinda coup, there really is not very much I can do. Yes, I can vote, I can vote for the same fuckers under a different name, or I can vote for the good people (I'm sure there's one or two) effectively making my vote ineffective... sounds like the best option to me.

You have to at least try. Politicians are people so they are going to make mistakes and a lot of them. Vote for the ones you think represents your views the most and hopefully they're honest. If not then replace them at the next election. If you don't vote you're really just making it to easy for them to get away with screwing things up because they'll think you really don't care about important issues.

Binaural

Heineken Helen wrote:

What do you think of all the stuff happening now? Seriously, if I lived in the north I'd be fairly fucking pissed off... Each sides have their own agendas and they'll probably sit down for a week and manage to be civil for maybe an hour and then the guns will come out again. I dunno why they don't just have a big shake up of the major politicians in the north. Bertie and Tony must often feel like they're trying to separate two kids fighting over who got the biggest piece of pie :rolleyes:

Bertie Ahern and Tony Blair have raped this situation for their own political ends for a long time. The fact of the matter is this: NO country has the right to rule over another, the British occupation of 'Northern Ireland' was and is illegal. I know that sounds militant but I don't care, it's the truth. Sinn Fein have supported an IRA that blew up civialians so I have no allegience to them. The DUP are a group of racist, biggoted, sectarian, homophobic leeches. The other parties are nothing but clown shoes. Seriously the whole situation is depressing.
What fucks me off the most though is the descrepancy in treatment of the paramilitaries, for years all the media attention has been devoted to a ceceasment of activity by the IRA. The have disbanded. So where are the same strength of calls for the Loyalist paramilitaries? I don't hear unionists campaigning for THAT too heavily :mad:

Heineken Helen

evenkat wrote:

You have to at least try. Politicians are people so they are going to make mistakes and a lot of them. Vote for the ones you think represents your views the most and hopefully they're honest. If not then replace them at the next election. If you don't vote you're really just making it to easy for them to get away with screwing things up because they'll think you really don't care about important issues.

Oh I know this... I always did and I always will vote but sometimes I just wonder why I bother? :rolleyes: