Anyone else sick of all the bullshit...

Heineken Helen

we're fed on a daily basis by governments ALL over the world? Be it George, or Tony, or Tom, or Bertie or whatever the fuck your president/prime minister is called... they're ALL full of shit. NONE of them have 'the peoples' best interests in mind... so get over it. We can argue all day every day about whether or not the US president is worse than the Iranian one... they're all fucking liars and all as bad as eachother. I don't care which lie YOU find to be the best but I don't want any of them.

So... Iranian waters? Iraqi waters? Who knows? Who to believe? Which lie SOUNDED the most genuine?

We, like the US, have elections coming up and I personally find all the lies we're being fed right now hilarious. Of COURSE if we vote them in for a third term they WILL do sooooooooo much for the good of this country... but hang on, what the fuck was wrong with the first TWO terms? Is it third time lucky or something?

Don't mind me... I'm really tired... but sometimes I wonder why you all argue over WHICH world leader we should believe and WHEN! My advice? None of them. Even in Northern Ireland... a 'country' with probably THE most fucked up 'government' of the lot... they manage to sit together every so often and agree to give themselves a payrise :rolleyes: . Ya rarely hear them fighting over THAT.

Kann

In the words of a famous thinker : "adults don't believe in Santa Claus, they vote".
I think we are all aware politicians are generally full of shit, and the ones who aren't cannot get to important enough functions to matter. But what can we do? I know I have to believe in the coming elections that my vote will actually change something or I might as well lose all hope.
I guess there are two ways to deal with this, try and believe that the next one or the next time it will be different. Or just leave your country behind and go actually do something for your fellow humans somewhere else, where your acts will actually matter and/or improve someone else's life.

Heineken Helen

Kann wrote:

In the words of a famous thinker : "adults don't believe in Santa Claus, they vote".
I think we are all aware politicians are generally full of shit, and the ones who aren't cannot get to important enough functions to matter. But what can we do? I know I have to believe in the coming elections that my vote will actually change something or I might as well lose all hope.
I guess there are two ways to deal with this, try and believe that the next one or the next time it will be different. Or just leave your country behind and go actually do something for your fellow humans somewhere else, where your acts will actually matter and/or improve someone else's life.

Ha I like that quote. Ok well I guess votes DO matter in that you're voting for your local TD and some of THEM actually ARE in it to make a difference... but regarding the higher up people in government, I really believe that it's the most experienced liar who people will put their faith in and vote for :rolleyes: . It's a shame. What happened to the days when we were delighted just to HAVE our own government?

Anyway, I don't stay in my country because of the government and I won't leave it because of them... but it's just fucking annoying. How stupid do they think we are?

Jeanie

I agree with you Helen. I'm completely over our politicians here.

And even though it's possible we may have a change of government at the next election I really don't have a lot of confidence in them either.

They all seem to be sprouting much of a muchness to me.

And you're right, they do seem such great mates when discussing pay increases and government superannuation!

I guess all that I can do it make sure I vote well, and always register my opinion at the things that they do. So I support other organizations financially and also protest or write letters or participate in my world wherever possible. I can only hope that by doing that and joining others who share my view that eventually they will have to go with public opinion.

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

I agree with you Helen. I'm completely over our politicians here.

And even though it's possible we may have a change of government at the next election I really don't have a lot of confidence in them either.

They all seem to be sprouting much of a muchness to me.

And you're right, they do seem such great mates when discussing pay increases and government superannuation!

I guess all that I can do it make sure I vote well, and always register my opinion at the things that they do. So I support other organizations financially and also protest or write letters or participate in my world wherever possible. I can only hope that by doing that and joining others who share my view that eventually they will have to go with public opinion.

It's a nice thought but governments prove all over the world that public opinion means absolutely nothing to them... they have the final say and that's it. Yes, opposition parties may come up with some good shit throughout the term but that's so you think they'll actually be capable of implementing some of these policies if/when you vote them in. All they have going for them really is that they go against every single policy of the party that's IN government - ALL of them :rolleyes:

desandrews

You've got a point. That's why I prefer a method of government that limits their powers to the utmost degree and places the majority of power (responsibility) on the individual. Then the local government should have the most power and the federal/national government should only take care of national security and a few other things.

Heineken Helen

desandrews wrote:

You've got a point. That's why I prefer a method of government that limits their powers to the utmost degree and places the majority of power (responsibility) on the individual. Then the local government should have the most power and the federal/national government should only take care of national security and a few other things.

Can you give me an example of a government that gives the majority of the power/responsibility to the individual?

desandrews

Heineken Helen wrote:

Can you give me an example of a government that gives the majority of the power/responsibility to the individual?

One in use today? Well hell, I was speaking philosophically. I certainly don't know of one. I'm no history buff but it seems like this is how the "Framers" designed the US to work, as a Republic, but it's obvious that hasn't been the case for quite some time. Certainly not in my lifetime and it doesn't seem like even in my parents or grandparents lifetime.

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

It's a nice thought but governments prove all over the world that public opinion means absolutely nothing to them... they have the final say and that's it. Yes, opposition parties may come up with some good shit throughout the term but that's so you think they'll actually be capable of implementing some of these policies if/when you vote them in. All they have going for them really is that they go against every single policy of the party that's IN government - ALL of them :rolleyes:

Boy you really are over them!!

But I know what you are saying Helen, I guess I can't quite give up my idealism. I just figure that we can go about our lives pretty much ignoring what they do and say, but occassionally we need to unite to keep them from the wrong path. And I think that does happen from time to time. Not nearly enough, but eventually, sometimes it does happen.

chopitdown

"If you're sick and tired of the politics of cynicism and polls and principles, come and join this campaign."
George W Bush

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

Boy you really are over them!!

But I know what you are saying Helen, I guess I can't quite give up my idealism. I just figure that we can go about our lives pretty much ignoring what they do and say, but occassionally we need to unite to keep them from the wrong path. And I think that does happen from time to time. Not nearly enough, but eventually, sometimes it does happen.

See you have a few choices:

- Let it get to you - you'll end up miserable ultimately
- Try and fight it - you'll fail miserably
- Run for politics yourself - you'll just end up as miserable as if you chose either of the other choices
- Vote for somebody else - you'll end up miserable cos they'll just fuck up the economy, the health care, the education system, EVERYTHING
- Ignore it and pretend it's not happening - seems to be the best choice for me... but if you ignore it, it continues to happen, fight it, it continues to happen... what the fuck are you supposed to do about it? :eek:

Is:
- Overthrow the government

not an option anymore?

Heineken Helen

desandrews wrote:

One in use today? Well hell, I was speaking philosophically. I certainly don't know of one. I'm no history buff but it seems like this is how the "Framers" designed the US to work, as a Republic, but it's obvious that hasn't been the case for quite some time. Certainly not in my lifetime and it doesn't seem like even in my parents or grandparents lifetime.

I know... I mean look at most of the main dictators. They started off with the very best of intentions. Then they get into power, the people who are against them try to kill them, they get paranoid thinking everyone who is against them is trying to kill them, they start killing everyone who is against them, they start killing everyone who is WITH them in case they're actually against them . I can see how it can happen BUT there must be a perfect... ok, even a GOOD... government SOMEWHERE in the world? Surely?

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

See you have a few choices:

- Let it get to you - you'll end up miserable ultimately
- Try and fight it - you'll fail miserably
- Run for politics yourself - you'll just end up as miserable as if you chose either of the other choices
- Vote for somebody else - you'll end up miserable cos they'll just fuck up the economy, the health care, the education system, EVERYTHING
- Ignore it and pretend it's not happening - seems to be the best choice for me... but if you ignore it, it continues to happen, fight it, it continues to happen... what the fuck are you supposed to do about it? :eek:

Is:
- Overthrow the government

not an option anymore?

Apparently if you live in Fiji it is!!!
I'm quite sure it happens in other parts of the world too, I'm just not as informed as I probably should be.
I reckon Helen, we all get busy with our lives and the fuckers will keep on governing as they please anyway. Some issues will appeal to you and you will stand up and find ways to stop them having all the power and some issues will appeal to me in the same way and I will stand up. And some issues will appeal to us both and we will stand up together. Some we may win and force them to take on what we stand for and some we will lose and have to live with. And sometimes we'll just be hanging out at the pub ignoring the pricks. It's an ever changing canvas. Overall though I suspect we have to listen to a whole bunch of lies, rhetoric and bullshit so that they can do what they really want behind that facade.

baraka

Heineken Helen wrote:

I know... I mean look at most of the main dictators. They started off with the very best of intentions. Then they get into power, the people who are against them try to kill them, they get paranoid thinking everyone who is against them is trying to kill them, they start killing everyone who is against them, they start killing everyone who is WITH them in case they're actually against them . I can see how it can happen BUT there must be a perfect... ok, even a GOOD... government SOMEWHERE in the world? Surely?

What is the saying? 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely' I wonder if it is humanly possible to avoid the corruption that comes with power. Ah, now I'm being pessimistic!

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

Apparently if you live in Fiji it is!!!
I'm quite sure it happens in other parts of the world too, I'm just not as informed as I probably should be.
I reckon Helen, we all get busy with our lives and the fuckers will keep on governing as they please anyway. Some issues will appeal to you and you will stand up and find ways to stop them having all the power and some issues will appeal to me in the same way and I will stand up. And some issues will appeal to us both and we will stand up together. Some we may win and force them to take on what we stand for and some we will lose and have to live with. And sometimes we'll just be hanging out at the pub ignoring the pricks. It's an ever changing canvas. Overall though I suspect we have to listen to a whole bunch of lies, rhetoric and bullshit so that they can do what they really want behind that facade.

See, I think it's mainly working class countries that are capable of overthrowing governments... we used to be pretty good at it here too but then we got rich and once we have a government that puts economy before all else, we get complacent. Ok, I really don't think the problems here are THAT bad compared to a lot of countries obviously but things can always be better. They're quick enough to build headquarters for multinationals while our kids are attending schools in prefabs and general shit like that.

Jeanie

baraka wrote:

What is the saying? 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely' I wonder if it is humanly possible to avoid the corruption that comes with power. Ah, now I'm being pessimistic!

What's that other saying? And I'm sure I've got it not quite right, but the general gist of it is : "The only thing that evil needs to flourish is for good men and women to stay silent."

I think that when it becomes obvious that there is corruption good men and women are no longer silent.

That help with the pessimism?

Heineken Helen

baraka wrote:

What is the saying? 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely' I wonder if it is humanly possible to avoid the corruption that comes with power. Ah, now I'm being pessimistic!

I genuinely don't think it IS possible

We can take things like this in our day to day lives... you tell yourself that if you got a raise of 100 per week... you could save 5,200 a year... but that's soooo not true. Most people, if they get an extra 100 per week, they live to their means and find something that they MUST spend that extra money on. So we tell ourselves if we won the lottery, all the great things we do with all that money - BOLLOX!!!!!!! Then we tell ourselves if we were in power, there are so many great things we could do for our people and our country - MORE bollox.

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

What's that other saying? And I'm sure I've got it not quite right, but the general gist of it is : "The only thing that evil needs to flourish is for good men and women to stay silent."

I think that when it becomes obvious that there is corruption good men and women are no longer silent.

That help with the pessimism?

Nope! :( cos money rules everything and I think those good men and women are too busy struggling to get by and make a life and future for them and their family... to have time to change things.

Damn I can't remember who said that myself

chopitdown

baraka wrote:

What is the saying? 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely' I wonder if it is humanly possible to avoid the corruption that comes with power. Ah, now I'm being pessimistic!

in politics I'd have to say it would be almost impossible to avoid corruption, no matter how noble the cause. The simple reason being that politics attracts people who want power on some level and there is going to be some person who is willing to do almost anything. Look at the presidents who have served 2 terms since nixon. I believe all of them had some sort of scandal in their 2nd term. It seems that if you stay around long enough the dirty laundry / corruption will surface.

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

Nope! :( cos money rules everything and I think those good men and women are too busy struggling to get by and make a life and future for them and their family... to have time to change things.

Damn I can't remember who said that myself

Yeah, I agree with that Helen, but I also think that people are united when they need to be. Ultimately I learned a lot from my Grandmother who is in her 80's and has lived through practically everything! She said they can do what they will, it hasn't really affected her living her life in that she has loved and been loved and has just got on with it. And she's made sure that she's voted whenever the opportunity has arisen. And she has protested whenever she felt she had to. And she's happy with how her life has gone so far.

I'm just so grateful to live in a democracy that allows me to speak when I feel the need to. I often think about how hideous my life might have been had I not been born into this lucky set of circumstances.

And I turn off the bastards whenever they pop up on the tele or radio.
Find it makes things a whole lot happier.

It's annoying I can't remember who made that quote, think I might have to google it!

baraka

Jeanie wrote:

What's that other saying? And I'm sure I've got it not quite right, but the general gist of it is : "The only thing that evil needs to flourish is for good men and women to stay silent."

I think that when it becomes obvious that there is corruption good men and women are no longer silent.

That help with the pessimism?

Yes it does Jeanie! Need to stay positive.............:D