Anyone else sick of all the bullshit...

Heineken Helen

we're fed on a daily basis by governments ALL over the world? Be it George, or Tony, or Tom, or Bertie or whatever the fuck your president/prime minister is called... they're ALL full of shit. NONE of them have 'the peoples' best interests in mind... so get over it. We can argue all day every day about whether or not the US president is worse than the Iranian one... they're all fucking liars and all as bad as eachother. I don't care which lie YOU find to be the best but I don't want any of them.

So... Iranian waters? Iraqi waters? Who knows? Who to believe? Which lie SOUNDED the most genuine?

We, like the US, have elections coming up and I personally find all the lies we're being fed right now hilarious. Of COURSE if we vote them in for a third term they WILL do sooooooooo much for the good of this country... but hang on, what the fuck was wrong with the first TWO terms? Is it third time lucky or something?

Don't mind me... I'm really tired... but sometimes I wonder why you all argue over WHICH world leader we should believe and WHEN! My advice? None of them. Even in Northern Ireland... a 'country' with probably THE most fucked up 'government' of the lot... they manage to sit together every so often and agree to give themselves a payrise :rolleyes: . Ya rarely hear them fighting over THAT.

Kann

In the words of a famous thinker : "adults don't believe in Santa Claus, they vote".
I think we are all aware politicians are generally full of shit, and the ones who aren't cannot get to important enough functions to matter. But what can we do? I know I have to believe in the coming elections that my vote will actually change something or I might as well lose all hope.
I guess there are two ways to deal with this, try and believe that the next one or the next time it will be different. Or just leave your country behind and go actually do something for your fellow humans somewhere else, where your acts will actually matter and/or improve someone else's life.

Heineken Helen

Kann wrote:

In the words of a famous thinker : "adults don't believe in Santa Claus, they vote".
I think we are all aware politicians are generally full of shit, and the ones who aren't cannot get to important enough functions to matter. But what can we do? I know I have to believe in the coming elections that my vote will actually change something or I might as well lose all hope.
I guess there are two ways to deal with this, try and believe that the next one or the next time it will be different. Or just leave your country behind and go actually do something for your fellow humans somewhere else, where your acts will actually matter and/or improve someone else's life.

Ha I like that quote. Ok well I guess votes DO matter in that you're voting for your local TD and some of THEM actually ARE in it to make a difference... but regarding the higher up people in government, I really believe that it's the most experienced liar who people will put their faith in and vote for :rolleyes: . It's a shame. What happened to the days when we were delighted just to HAVE our own government?

Anyway, I don't stay in my country because of the government and I won't leave it because of them... but it's just fucking annoying. How stupid do they think we are?

Jeanie

I agree with you Helen. I'm completely over our politicians here.

And even though it's possible we may have a change of government at the next election I really don't have a lot of confidence in them either.

They all seem to be sprouting much of a muchness to me.

And you're right, they do seem such great mates when discussing pay increases and government superannuation!

I guess all that I can do it make sure I vote well, and always register my opinion at the things that they do. So I support other organizations financially and also protest or write letters or participate in my world wherever possible. I can only hope that by doing that and joining others who share my view that eventually they will have to go with public opinion.

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

I agree with you Helen. I'm completely over our politicians here.

And even though it's possible we may have a change of government at the next election I really don't have a lot of confidence in them either.

They all seem to be sprouting much of a muchness to me.

And you're right, they do seem such great mates when discussing pay increases and government superannuation!

I guess all that I can do it make sure I vote well, and always register my opinion at the things that they do. So I support other organizations financially and also protest or write letters or participate in my world wherever possible. I can only hope that by doing that and joining others who share my view that eventually they will have to go with public opinion.

It's a nice thought but governments prove all over the world that public opinion means absolutely nothing to them... they have the final say and that's it. Yes, opposition parties may come up with some good shit throughout the term but that's so you think they'll actually be capable of implementing some of these policies if/when you vote them in. All they have going for them really is that they go against every single policy of the party that's IN government - ALL of them :rolleyes:

desandrews

You've got a point. That's why I prefer a method of government that limits their powers to the utmost degree and places the majority of power (responsibility) on the individual. Then the local government should have the most power and the federal/national government should only take care of national security and a few other things.

Heineken Helen

desandrews wrote:

You've got a point. That's why I prefer a method of government that limits their powers to the utmost degree and places the majority of power (responsibility) on the individual. Then the local government should have the most power and the federal/national government should only take care of national security and a few other things.

Can you give me an example of a government that gives the majority of the power/responsibility to the individual?

desandrews

Heineken Helen wrote:

Can you give me an example of a government that gives the majority of the power/responsibility to the individual?

One in use today? Well hell, I was speaking philosophically. I certainly don't know of one. I'm no history buff but it seems like this is how the "Framers" designed the US to work, as a Republic, but it's obvious that hasn't been the case for quite some time. Certainly not in my lifetime and it doesn't seem like even in my parents or grandparents lifetime.

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

It's a nice thought but governments prove all over the world that public opinion means absolutely nothing to them... they have the final say and that's it. Yes, opposition parties may come up with some good shit throughout the term but that's so you think they'll actually be capable of implementing some of these policies if/when you vote them in. All they have going for them really is that they go against every single policy of the party that's IN government - ALL of them :rolleyes:

Boy you really are over them!!

But I know what you are saying Helen, I guess I can't quite give up my idealism. I just figure that we can go about our lives pretty much ignoring what they do and say, but occassionally we need to unite to keep them from the wrong path. And I think that does happen from time to time. Not nearly enough, but eventually, sometimes it does happen.

chopitdown

"If you're sick and tired of the politics of cynicism and polls and principles, come and join this campaign."
George W Bush

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

Boy you really are over them!!

But I know what you are saying Helen, I guess I can't quite give up my idealism. I just figure that we can go about our lives pretty much ignoring what they do and say, but occassionally we need to unite to keep them from the wrong path. And I think that does happen from time to time. Not nearly enough, but eventually, sometimes it does happen.

See you have a few choices:

- Let it get to you - you'll end up miserable ultimately
- Try and fight it - you'll fail miserably
- Run for politics yourself - you'll just end up as miserable as if you chose either of the other choices
- Vote for somebody else - you'll end up miserable cos they'll just fuck up the economy, the health care, the education system, EVERYTHING
- Ignore it and pretend it's not happening - seems to be the best choice for me... but if you ignore it, it continues to happen, fight it, it continues to happen... what the fuck are you supposed to do about it? :eek:

Is:
- Overthrow the government

not an option anymore?

Heineken Helen

desandrews wrote:

One in use today? Well hell, I was speaking philosophically. I certainly don't know of one. I'm no history buff but it seems like this is how the "Framers" designed the US to work, as a Republic, but it's obvious that hasn't been the case for quite some time. Certainly not in my lifetime and it doesn't seem like even in my parents or grandparents lifetime.

I know... I mean look at most of the main dictators. They started off with the very best of intentions. Then they get into power, the people who are against them try to kill them, they get paranoid thinking everyone who is against them is trying to kill them, they start killing everyone who is against them, they start killing everyone who is WITH them in case they're actually against them . I can see how it can happen BUT there must be a perfect... ok, even a GOOD... government SOMEWHERE in the world? Surely?

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

See you have a few choices:

- Let it get to you - you'll end up miserable ultimately
- Try and fight it - you'll fail miserably
- Run for politics yourself - you'll just end up as miserable as if you chose either of the other choices
- Vote for somebody else - you'll end up miserable cos they'll just fuck up the economy, the health care, the education system, EVERYTHING
- Ignore it and pretend it's not happening - seems to be the best choice for me... but if you ignore it, it continues to happen, fight it, it continues to happen... what the fuck are you supposed to do about it? :eek:

Is:
- Overthrow the government

not an option anymore?

Apparently if you live in Fiji it is!!!
I'm quite sure it happens in other parts of the world too, I'm just not as informed as I probably should be.
I reckon Helen, we all get busy with our lives and the fuckers will keep on governing as they please anyway. Some issues will appeal to you and you will stand up and find ways to stop them having all the power and some issues will appeal to me in the same way and I will stand up. And some issues will appeal to us both and we will stand up together. Some we may win and force them to take on what we stand for and some we will lose and have to live with. And sometimes we'll just be hanging out at the pub ignoring the pricks. It's an ever changing canvas. Overall though I suspect we have to listen to a whole bunch of lies, rhetoric and bullshit so that they can do what they really want behind that facade.

baraka

Heineken Helen wrote:

I know... I mean look at most of the main dictators. They started off with the very best of intentions. Then they get into power, the people who are against them try to kill them, they get paranoid thinking everyone who is against them is trying to kill them, they start killing everyone who is against them, they start killing everyone who is WITH them in case they're actually against them . I can see how it can happen BUT there must be a perfect... ok, even a GOOD... government SOMEWHERE in the world? Surely?

What is the saying? 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely' I wonder if it is humanly possible to avoid the corruption that comes with power. Ah, now I'm being pessimistic!

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

Apparently if you live in Fiji it is!!!
I'm quite sure it happens in other parts of the world too, I'm just not as informed as I probably should be.
I reckon Helen, we all get busy with our lives and the fuckers will keep on governing as they please anyway. Some issues will appeal to you and you will stand up and find ways to stop them having all the power and some issues will appeal to me in the same way and I will stand up. And some issues will appeal to us both and we will stand up together. Some we may win and force them to take on what we stand for and some we will lose and have to live with. And sometimes we'll just be hanging out at the pub ignoring the pricks. It's an ever changing canvas. Overall though I suspect we have to listen to a whole bunch of lies, rhetoric and bullshit so that they can do what they really want behind that facade.

See, I think it's mainly working class countries that are capable of overthrowing governments... we used to be pretty good at it here too but then we got rich and once we have a government that puts economy before all else, we get complacent. Ok, I really don't think the problems here are THAT bad compared to a lot of countries obviously but things can always be better. They're quick enough to build headquarters for multinationals while our kids are attending schools in prefabs and general shit like that.

Jeanie

baraka wrote:

What is the saying? 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely' I wonder if it is humanly possible to avoid the corruption that comes with power. Ah, now I'm being pessimistic!

What's that other saying? And I'm sure I've got it not quite right, but the general gist of it is : "The only thing that evil needs to flourish is for good men and women to stay silent."

I think that when it becomes obvious that there is corruption good men and women are no longer silent.

That help with the pessimism?

Heineken Helen

baraka wrote:

What is the saying? 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely' I wonder if it is humanly possible to avoid the corruption that comes with power. Ah, now I'm being pessimistic!

I genuinely don't think it IS possible

We can take things like this in our day to day lives... you tell yourself that if you got a raise of 100 per week... you could save 5,200 a year... but that's soooo not true. Most people, if they get an extra 100 per week, they live to their means and find something that they MUST spend that extra money on. So we tell ourselves if we won the lottery, all the great things we do with all that money - BOLLOX!!!!!!! Then we tell ourselves if we were in power, there are so many great things we could do for our people and our country - MORE bollox.

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

What's that other saying? And I'm sure I've got it not quite right, but the general gist of it is : "The only thing that evil needs to flourish is for good men and women to stay silent."

I think that when it becomes obvious that there is corruption good men and women are no longer silent.

That help with the pessimism?

Nope! :( cos money rules everything and I think those good men and women are too busy struggling to get by and make a life and future for them and their family... to have time to change things.

Damn I can't remember who said that myself

chopitdown

baraka wrote:

What is the saying? 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely' I wonder if it is humanly possible to avoid the corruption that comes with power. Ah, now I'm being pessimistic!

in politics I'd have to say it would be almost impossible to avoid corruption, no matter how noble the cause. The simple reason being that politics attracts people who want power on some level and there is going to be some person who is willing to do almost anything. Look at the presidents who have served 2 terms since nixon. I believe all of them had some sort of scandal in their 2nd term. It seems that if you stay around long enough the dirty laundry / corruption will surface.

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

Nope! :( cos money rules everything and I think those good men and women are too busy struggling to get by and make a life and future for them and their family... to have time to change things.

Damn I can't remember who said that myself

Yeah, I agree with that Helen, but I also think that people are united when they need to be. Ultimately I learned a lot from my Grandmother who is in her 80's and has lived through practically everything! She said they can do what they will, it hasn't really affected her living her life in that she has loved and been loved and has just got on with it. And she's made sure that she's voted whenever the opportunity has arisen. And she has protested whenever she felt she had to. And she's happy with how her life has gone so far.

I'm just so grateful to live in a democracy that allows me to speak when I feel the need to. I often think about how hideous my life might have been had I not been born into this lucky set of circumstances.

And I turn off the bastards whenever they pop up on the tele or radio.
Find it makes things a whole lot happier.

It's annoying I can't remember who made that quote, think I might have to google it!

baraka

Jeanie wrote:

What's that other saying? And I'm sure I've got it not quite right, but the general gist of it is : "The only thing that evil needs to flourish is for good men and women to stay silent."

I think that when it becomes obvious that there is corruption good men and women are no longer silent.

That help with the pessimism?

Yes it does Jeanie! Need to stay positive.............:D

baraka

Heineken Helen wrote:

I genuinely don't think it IS possible

We can take things like this in our day to day lives... you tell yourself that if you got a raise of 100 per week... you could save 5,200 a year... but that's soooo not true. Most people, if they get an extra 100 per week, they live to their means and find something that they MUST spend that extra money on. So we tell ourselves if we won the lottery, all the great things we do with all that money - BOLLOX!!!!!!! Then we tell ourselves if we were in power, there are so many great things we could do for our people and our country - MORE bollox.

Human nature, I suppose. I have to believe there are those that can rise above it, not many, but an enlightened few. maybe? hopefully?

baraka

chopitdown wrote:

in politics I'd have to say it would be almost impossible to avoid corruption, no matter how noble the cause. The simple reason being that politics attracts people who want power on some level and there is going to be some person who is willing to do almost anything. Look at the presidents who have served 2 terms since nixon. I believe all of them had some sort of scandal in their 2nd term. It seems that if you stay around long enough the dirty laundry / corruption will surface.

Do you feel there is no way around this for anyone? I realize the stats are grim.

Jeanie

baraka wrote:

Yes it does Jeanie! Need to stay positive.............:D

Cool!! I'm on a roll here!! Helped you with the pessimism and made a positive lunch suggestion on the I'm Hungry thread!!

Feel I'm getting my Pollyanna back!!

tybird

If you're sick of the bullshit, quit walking through the pasture.

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

Yeah, I agree with that Helen, but I also think that people are united when they need to be. Ultimately I learned a lot from my Grandmother who is in her 80's and has lived through practically everything! She said they can do what they will, it hasn't really affected her living her life in that she has loved and been loved and has just got on with it. And she's made sure that she's voted whenever the opportunity has arisen. And she has protested whenever she felt she had to. And she's happy with how her life has gone so far.

I'm just so grateful to live in a democracy that allows me to speak when I feel the need to. I often think about how hideous my life might have been had I not been born into this lucky set of circumstances.

And I turn off the bastards whenever they pop up on the tele or radio.
Find it makes things a whole lot happier.

It's annoying I can't remember who made that quote, think I might have to google it!

Your grandmother sounds great . Don't get me wrong, I ALWAYS vote.. and I always wonder what the bloody point is

And I'm always grateful for the men and women who came before me to GIVE me the right to vote and to give us the great country we COULD have... I'm not so sure they'd be overly impressed with the state of politics here these days though

Heineken Helen

tybird wrote:

If you're sick of the bullshit, quit walking through the pasture.

I've got nothing

chopitdown

baraka wrote:

Do you feel there is no way around this for anyone? I realize the stats are grim.

Put term limits on everyone...very short term limits. And once you have served your term you can only serve in another branch for one term. Or decrease the pay / benefits so that if you want to be a career politician you really will be there to serve the people not your own pocketbook

Get people of good character to run. I think if you have the majority of people in the gov't that have good character (whatever party or belief system they are) then you'll have good govt.

TheVoiceInside

Here is a sample of a decaying democracy.

Single-chamber claim reaches the Capitol
Posted: Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 03:39 PM
By LAURA N. PEREZ SANCHEZ

SAN JUAN (AP) – Leaded by more than 20 trucks from the Teamsters union, thousands marched toward the Capitol with a single claim: the legislators must respect democracy and validate the people’s will expressed in the referendum which favored unicameralism.

The leaders of the organizations that had publicly supported the single-chamber system –businessman Adolfo Krans, Julio Muriente and several Popular Democratic Party (PDP) and Puerto Rican Independence Party politicians- were carrying a red, blue and green banner which reads “The vote must be respected”, slogan which was repeated on the banners that the demonstrators were carrying.

Movimiento Independentista Nacional Hostosiano Co-President Héctor Pesquera and one of the event’s organizers, said he was satisfied with the people’s support.

The pro-independence leader said this is only the beginning of many events ahead to make the Legislature respect the results of the 2005 referendum in which 83.8% of the voters chose to turn the Legislature into a single-chamber system.



These are some very depressing times here in PR. when 83% vote to change the legislative branch from a bicameral system to a unicameral one and that very legislature just tosses the votting results aside and wont do as the people have told them to do. I begin to question the validity of my democracy.

Heineken Helen

chopitdown wrote:

Put term limits on everyone...very short term limits. And once you have served your term you can only serve in another branch for one term. Or decrease the pay / benefits so that if you want to be a career politician you really will be there to serve the people not your own pocketbook

Get people of good character to run. I think if you have the majority of people in the gov't that have good character (whatever party or belief system they are) then you'll have good govt.

Ok well one thing we HAVE done well here is that anybody in government cannot have shares or any financial interest in any companies... of course there are always brown envelopes, and it they're caught it's very very strict. We have tribunals that go on for decades and end only when the accused dies of natural causes :rolleyes:

tybird

Heineken Helen wrote:

I've got nothing

Oh, yes you do Helen, you're a winner in our book. Yes, it all seems like shit sometimes...but if you let hope die, then it is all shit.

As for "power to the people" and "overthrow the government," we have seen how well that worked in Russia/Soviet Union/Russia and many of the post-colonial African nations.