Worry About the West - Not Israel

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Comments

  • jsand
    jsand Posts: 646
    dayan wrote:
    You just don't think before you open your mouth do you? Actually you probably don't think at all.

    That's really not fair, dayan. It's not like he chooses not to think; he's just incapable of thinking.
  • dayan
    dayan Posts: 475
    Oh, speaking of WWII, do you know how many French Civilians the allies killed accidentally as part of the bombing of the French railroad system before D-Day. 10,000. Does that make the liberation of Europe immoral on the allies part. I suppose that they should have just left Europe to the Nazis because liberating it meant killing civilians. Oh well, I guess we'll just have to live with having done the wrong thing. Too bad really. Living under Nazi rule would have been nice. Oh man, you guys crack me up (or you would if you weren't so aggravating).
  • sliverstain
    sliverstain Posts: 340
    jsand wrote:
    That's really not fair, dayan. It's not like he chooses not to think; he's just incapable of thinking.


    Personal attack, unconstructive, atypical response from the 'in' crowd.
    The world's greatest empires progress through this sequence:From bondage to spiritual faith; spiritual faith to great courage; courage to liberty;liberty to abundance;abundance to selfishness; selfishness to complacency;complacency to apathy;apathy to dependence;dependency back again into bondage
  • sliverstain
    sliverstain Posts: 340
    dayan wrote:
    Oh, speaking of WWII, do you know how many French Civilians the allies killed accidentally as part of the bombing of the French railroad system before D-Day. 10,000. Does that make the liberation of Europe immoral on the allies part. I suppose that they should have just left Europe to the Nazis because liberating it meant killing civilians. Oh well, I guess we'll just have to live with having done the wrong thing. Too bad really. Living under Nazi rule would have been nice. Oh man, you guys crack me up (or you would if you weren't so aggravating).


    SOOOOOO...Israel can bomb civilians just because of something completely unrelated that happened 60 years ago....

    Straws, grasping, hands, reaching, almost there, must...make...sense.
    The world's greatest empires progress through this sequence:From bondage to spiritual faith; spiritual faith to great courage; courage to liberty;liberty to abundance;abundance to selfishness; selfishness to complacency;complacency to apathy;apathy to dependence;dependency back again into bondage
  • monkey spanker
    monkey spanker Posts: 283
    dayan wrote:
    Oh, speaking of WWII, do you know how many French Civilians the allies killed accidentally as part of the bombing of the French railroad system before D-Day. 10,000. Does that make the liberation of Europe immoral on the allies part. I suppose that they should have just left Europe to the Nazis because liberating it meant killing civilians. Oh well, I guess we'll just have to live with having done the wrong thing. Too bad really. Living under Nazi rule would have been nice. Oh man, you guys crack me up (or you would if you weren't so aggravating).

    good point but actually, if these people were around thren in the numbers that they are today..we would never have been able to win that war. we would have been forced to meet with hitler, figure out why he FEELS the way he does, try to understand him.....LOL

    the left was wrong in the past, they are wrong now, they will be wrong in the future..deep down inside they know this....its why their always angry and putting bumper stickers on everything....."i'm angry, listen to me"
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    dayan wrote:
    You have said on this thread that people are avoiding engagement with your posts. I believe I answered one of your questions on a different thread. I explained that Israel is responding to far far more than just the kidnapping of 2 of its soldiers. You never responded to me on that thread, and now here you are restating the same assumption that the last provocation by Hezbollah was the only reason for Israel's response.

    Frankly, it was directed at jsand, who always shies away whenever I try to talk sense and emphasize the points that the civilians in between are the victims and that both sides' leaderships are fucked up. I remember a time before when we were heartedly arguing until i started to ask him flat out if he felt palestinian innocents were less worth than Israeli. He first dodged, and then said nothing.

    As for what Israel is responding to, then of course it's not the kidnapping of the soldiers per se, but it was the excuse to launch the long-planned operation that is now unfolding under that pretext. I'm not saying that's the reason, but it's the only reason actually given. Kinda the lack of WMDs in Iraq. The real reasons are too realpolitical, selfish and unnoble for them to say them. As usual with big politics.

    As for me not always responding, if I dont feel I can add any to the debate going on, I dont. If it is the thread i think it was, it was kinda beside the topic anyway, and I only made one short statement. Besides, my points were being covered by others. When someone engages me directly in debate though, I do respond. (as any search through my lengthy posts in the past will show.) You feel I shy away from responding, pm me, and I will do so. (edit) well it wasn't the thread I thought it was. Enlighten me on that account if you please.
    Oh, speaking of WWII, do you know how many French Civilians the allies killed accidentally as part of the bombing of the French railroad system before D-Day. 10,000. Does that make the liberation of Europe immoral on the allies part. I suppose that they should have just left Europe to the Nazis because liberating it meant killing civilians. Oh well, I guess we'll just have to live with having done the wrong thing. Too bad really. Living under Nazi rule would have been nice. Oh man, you guys crack me up (or you would if you weren't so aggravating).
    And it was also monstrous and morally disgusting to do so. One side's wrongs do not justify another side's wrongs. And it is apples and oranges compared to the current situation, really. Few wars are close to comparable to WW2, especially not the bickering in the middle east.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • dayan
    dayan Posts: 475
    sliverstain wrote:
    SOOOOOO...Israel can bomb civilians just because of something completely unrelated that happened 60 years ago....

    Straws, grasping, hands, reaching, almost there, must...make...sense.

    Oh my, how you miss the point again. No, Israel cannot justify what it does today because of WWII, but you were saying that Israel is wrong because they've killed more people then Hezbollah has. I was using a historical example to show that your logic is shoddy. I wonder, if Hezbollah had killed more people than Israel would you be saying that Israel was in the right? (by the way this would still be ridiculous logic. don't think that I accept bad logic even if it does work in my favor)
  • dayan
    dayan Posts: 475
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    As for what Israel is responding to, then of course it's not the kidnapping of the soldiers per se, but it was the excuse to launch the long-planned operation that is now unfolding under that pretext. I'm not saying that's the reason, but it's the only reason actually given. Kinda the lack of WMDs in Iraq. The real reasons are too realpolitical, selfish and unnoble that they won't say them. As usual with big politics.

    And it was also monstrous and morally disgusting to do so. One side's wrongs do not justify another side's wrongs. And it is apples and oranges compared to the current situation, really. Few wars are close to comparable to WW2, especially not the bickering in the middle east.

    Peace
    Dan

    Israel is not hiding it's motivations for action. They simply haven't been very good at getting their message out. They are acting because Hezbollah has never really stopped their war on Israel. They have maintained a low-intensity conflict in the Shebaa Farms region ever since Israel pulled out of ALL of Lebanon in 2000. They also kidnapped three Israeli soldiers from Israel just months after the Israeli withdrawl. They have been arming themselves ever since Israel pulled out and have been turning themselves into a threat that Israel simply can no longer live with. They are an operational arm of Iran, whose president speaks of wiping Israel off the map while his government seeks to build nuclear weapons. Israel is fighting to eliminate a very real threat to itself and to weaken Iran's hold on Lebanon.
  • monkey spanker
    monkey spanker Posts: 283
    dayan wrote:
    Israel is not hiding it's motivations for action. They simply haven't been very good at getting their message out. They are acting because Hezbollah has never really stopped their war on Israel. They have maintained a low-intensity conflict in the Shebaa Farms region ever since Israel pulled out of ALL of Lebanon in 2000. They also kidnapped three Israeli soldiers from Israel just months after the Israeli withdrawl. They have been arming themselves ever since Israel pulled out and have been turning themselves into a threat that Israel simply can no longer live with. They are an operational arm of Iran, whose president speaks of wiping Israel off the map while his government seeks to build nuclear weapons. Israel is fighting to eliminate a very real threat to itself and to weaken Iran's hold on Lebanon.

    no daylan. israel should not fight back. they should extend their arms and embrace the terrorists. its the only way the conflict can be solved. don't you learn anything from these libs?
  • RockinInCanada
    RockinInCanada Posts: 2,016
    monkey spanker wrote:
    no daylan. israel should not fight back. they should extend their arms and embrace the terrorists. its the only way the conflict can be solved. don't you learn anything from these libs?

    lol....keep blowing them up and keep trying to tell yourself civilian deaths are okay in this war on terror.....right violence brings peace....does it not...
  • monkey spanker
    monkey spanker Posts: 283
    Rockin'InCanada wrote:
    violence brings peace....does it not...

    it did after WW2. its the only hope we got. i really can not figure out what is so hard to understand...hezbollah wants to destroy israel, there is no room for negotiations with a group that only cares about your ultimate destruction.
  • Open
    Open Posts: 792
    jsand wrote:
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/08/worry_about_the_west_not_israe.html

    "Still, when this is all over, we should not worry about the survival of Israel. For weeks, pundits have been lecturing how canny and adept Hezbollah has proved -- and how a clumsy Israel could only respond by destroying Lebanon's infrastructure. Yet, when the dust settles, the world will learn that Lebanon outside Hezbollah's domain is not destroyed. And, one hopes, those who have suffered in the Hezbollah-controlled south will reexamine their support for a terrorist organization that has brought them -- and itself -- to near ruin.

    Instead far more worrisome is the moral crisis in the West itself. If so many of its politicians, intellectuals and media will not or cannot fathom moral differences in this war, they will hardly be able to see them anywhere else."


    That last paragraph is so apt - especially here in this lunatic asylum of a forum.

    Coming from you; who doesnt have an ounce of neutrality. Keep pointing fingers, one of these days, if you keep pointing long enough, you'll learn to point at yourself. Only then wiill you see things in a new perspective.
  • RockinInCanada
    RockinInCanada Posts: 2,016
    monkey spanker wrote:
    it did after WW2. its the only hope we got. i really can not figure out what is so hard to understand...hezbollah wants to destroy israel, there is no room for negotiations with a group that only cares about your ultimate destruction.

    Funny as I see WW2 and this current experiment in peace bringing two very different things...so in your eyes is this to prevent WW3?

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