Worry About the West - Not Israel
jsand
Posts: 646
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/08/worry_about_the_west_not_israe.html
"Still, when this is all over, we should not worry about the survival of Israel. For weeks, pundits have been lecturing how canny and adept Hezbollah has proved -- and how a clumsy Israel could only respond by destroying Lebanon's infrastructure. Yet, when the dust settles, the world will learn that Lebanon outside Hezbollah's domain is not destroyed. And, one hopes, those who have suffered in the Hezbollah-controlled south will reexamine their support for a terrorist organization that has brought them -- and itself -- to near ruin.
Instead far more worrisome is the moral crisis in the West itself. If so many of its politicians, intellectuals and media will not or cannot fathom moral differences in this war, they will hardly be able to see them anywhere else."
That last paragraph is so apt - especially here in this lunatic asylum of a forum.
"Still, when this is all over, we should not worry about the survival of Israel. For weeks, pundits have been lecturing how canny and adept Hezbollah has proved -- and how a clumsy Israel could only respond by destroying Lebanon's infrastructure. Yet, when the dust settles, the world will learn that Lebanon outside Hezbollah's domain is not destroyed. And, one hopes, those who have suffered in the Hezbollah-controlled south will reexamine their support for a terrorist organization that has brought them -- and itself -- to near ruin.
Instead far more worrisome is the moral crisis in the West itself. If so many of its politicians, intellectuals and media will not or cannot fathom moral differences in this war, they will hardly be able to see them anywhere else."
That last paragraph is so apt - especially here in this lunatic asylum of a forum.
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Actually found this whilst searching your previous posts. Interesting...
The land and people of Palestine were transformed during the thirty years of British rule. The systematic colonization undertaken by the Zionist movement enabled the Jewish community to establish separate and virtually autonomous political, economic, social, cultural, and military institutions. A state within a state was in place by the time the movement launched its drive for independence. The legal underpinnings for the autonomous Jewish community were provided by the British Mandate. The establishment of a Jewish state was first proposed by the British Royal Commission in July 1937 and then endorsed by the UNITED NATIONS in November 1947.
That drive for statehood IGNORED the presence of a Palestinian majority with its own national aspirations. The right to create a Jewish state—and the overwhelming need for such a state—were perceived as overriding Palestinian counterclaims. Few members of the yishuv supported the idea of binationalism. Rather, territorial partition was seen by most Zionist leaders as the way to gain statehood while according certain national rights to the Palestinians. TRANSFER of Palestinians to neighboring Arab states was also envisaged as a means to ensure the formation of a homogeneous Jewish territory. The implementation of those approaches led to the formation of independent Israel, at the cost of dismembering the Palestinian community and fostering long-term hostility with the Arab world.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/an...azisupport.cfm
Nazi Support of Zionism
Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, recognized that anti-Semitism would further his cause, the creation of a separate state for Jews. To solve the Jewish Question, he maintained “we must, above all, make it an international political issue.”[1]Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome “final solution of the Jewish question.”[2]In his “Diaries”, page 19, Herzl stated “Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.”
51 Documents:
Zionist Collaboration
with the NazisZionism was supported by the German SS and Gestapo.[3] [4] [5] [6] Hitler himself personally supported Zionism.[7] [8] During the 1930’s, in cooperation with the German authorities, Zionist groups organized a network of some 40 camps throughout Germany where prospective settlers were trained for their new lives in Palestine. As late as 1942 Zionists operated at least one of these officially authorized “Kibbutz” training camps[9] over which flew the blue and white banner which would one day be adopted as the national flag of “Israel”.[10]
The Transfer Agreement (which promoted the emigration of German Jews to Palestine) implemented in 1933 and abandoned at the beginning of WWII is an important example of the cooperation between Hitler’s Germany and international Zionism. [11] Through this agreement, Hitler’s Third Reich did more than any other government during the 1930’s to support Jewish development in Palestine and further the Zionist goals.
Hitler and the Zionists had a common goal: to create a world Jewish Ghetto as a solution to the Jewish Question.
The Transfer AgreementThe Zionist so-called “World Jewish Congress” declared war on the country of Germany,[12] [13] knowing that it would affect their Jewish brothers residing in that country who would be left without protection. When others tried to help them escape to other countries, the Zionist movement took actions which caused those countries to lock their doors to Jewish immigration (read more in the books, “Perfidy” and “Min Hametzer”). As a result of the Zionist influence five ships of Jewish refugees from Germany arriving in the United States were turned back to the gas chambers.
The fundamental aim of the Zionist movement has been not to save Jewish lives but to create a “Jewish state” in Palestine.
On December 7, 1938, Ben Gurion, the first head of the Zionist ‘state of Israel’ declared “If I knew it was possible to save all the children in Germany by taking them to England, and only half of the children by taking them to Eretz Israel, I would choose the second solution. For we must take into account not only the lives of these children but also the history of the people of Israel.”[14]
On August 31, 1949, Ben Gurion stated: “Although we have realized our dream of creating a Jewish State, we are only at the beginning. There are still only 900,000 Jews in Israel, whereas the majority of the Jewish people still remains abroad. Our future task is to bring all the Jews to Israel.”
Of the two and a half million Jews seeking refuge from the Nazis between 1935 and 1943, less than 9% went to settle in Palestine. The vast majority, 75%, went to the Soviet Union. In the mid-70’s, more people emigrated out of ‘Israel’ than came in. The only surges of immigration to the Zionist state have occurred during anti-Semitic threats and persecution in foreign countries.[15]
It follows that for the Zionist state to achieve its goal of a Jewish world ghetto anti-Semitism must be promoted and encouraged, and as we have seen, by acts of violence if necessary.
“To attain its practical objectives, Zionism hopes it will be able to collaborate with a government that is fundamentally hostile to the Jews”.[16]
The use of anti-Semitism as a tool to coerce immigration to the Zionist state continues to the present day:
Prime Minister Sharon has stated that anti-Semitism is on the rise and that the only hope for the safety of Jews is to move to Israel under the protection of the Zionist state. “The best solution to anti-Semitism is immigration to Israel. It is the only place on Earth where Jews can live as Jews," he said.[17]
Those who continue to call the so-called “state of Israel” the “Jewish State” are not only promoting Zionism which is contrary to the beliefs of true Judaism, but also endorsing the promotion of worldwide anti-Semitism. In doing so they are endangering the lives of traditional Jews and denying their civil liberties and human rights.
When the British foreign secretary, Arthur Balfour (sponsor of the 1905 Aliens Act to restrict Jewish immigration to the UK), wanted the British government to commit itself to a Jewish homeland in Palestine, his declaration was delayed - not by anti-Semites but by leading figures in the British Jewish community. They included a Jewish member of the cabinet who called Balfour's pro-Zionism "anti-Semitic in result". In contrast, a great statesman like Secretary of State Colin Powell, a supporter of traditional Judaism, has the courage to separate Judaism from Zionism and to acknowledge that speaking out against the actions of the Zionist state is not “anti-Semitism”.
We call upon our leaders in Washington to disassociate the actions of the Zionist state from traditional Judaism by no longer referring to “Israel” as the “Jewish State” but as “the Zionist State” and to speak out against the Zionist actions which promote anti-Semitism.
Bibliography:
“Zionism and the Third Reich”, Author: Mark Weber, The Journal for Historical Review
(http://www.ihr.org), July/August 1993, Volume 13, Number 4, page 29.
Hitlers Zweites Buch – ein Dokument aus dem Jahr 1928, Stuttgart, 1961. English translation: Hitler’s Secret Book, New York, 1961, pp 212-215.
Berlin Encyclopaedia Judaica (New York and Jerusalem: 1971), Vol. 5, p.648.
See also, J.-C. Horak, “Zionist Film Propaganda in Nazi Germany,” Historical Journal of Film, Radio and Television, Vol. 4, No. 1, 1984, pp 49-58.
Perfidy, Author: Ben Hecht, Milah Press, Incorporated; April 1, 1997
Min Hameitzer, Author:Rabbi Weissmandl; The book Unheeded Cry by Abraham Fuchs, is a partial translation.
Holocaust Encyclopedia, “Escape from German Occupied Europe”, http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.ph...eId=100 05470
“Immigration Policies”, Jewish Virtual Library, http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...st/grobim.html
“The Tragedy of the S.S. St. Louis”, Jewish Virtual Library, http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...t/stlouis.html
[1] Quoted in: Ingrid Wecker, Feuerzeichen: Die “Reichskristallnacht” (Tubingen: Grabert, 1981), p. 212. See also: Th. Herzl, The Jewish State (New York: Herzl Press, 1970), pp 33, 35, 36, and Edwin Black, The Transfer Agreement (New York: Macmillan, 1984), p.73
[2] Th. Herzl, “Der Kongress, “ Welt, June 4, 1897. Reprinted in: Theodore Herzls zionistische Schriften (Leon Kellner, ed.), ester Teil, Berlin: Judischer Verlag, 1920, p. 190 (and p.139)
[3] Francis R. Nicosia, The Third Reich and the Palestine Question (1985), pp. 54-55.; Karl A. Schleunes, The Twisted Road to Auschwitz (Urbana: Univ. of Illinois, 1970, 1990) pp. 178-181
[4] Jacob Boas, “A Nazi Travels to Palestine,” History Today (London), January, 1980, pp. 33-38.
[5] Facsimile reprint of front page of Das Schwarze Korp, May 15, 1935, in: Janusz Piekalkiewicz, Israels Langer Arm (Frankfurt: Goverts, 1975), pp. 66-67.
[6] Das Schwarze Korps, Sept. 26, 1935. Quoted in: F. Nicosia, The Third Reich and the Palestine Question (1985), pp. 56-57
[7] F. Nicosia, Third Reich (1985), pp. 141-144; On Hitler’s critical view of Zionism in Mein Kapf, see. Esp. Vol. 1, Chap. 11. Quoted in: Robert Wistrich, Hitler’s Apocalypse (London: 1985), p. 155.;
[8] W. Feilchenfeld, et al., Haavra-Transfer (1972). Entire text in: David Yisraeli, The Palestine Problem in German Politics 1889-1945 (Israel: 1974), pp. 132-136.
[9] Y. Arad, et al., eds., Documents On the Holocaust (1981), p. 155. (The training kibbutz was at Neuendorf, and may have functioned even after March 1942.)
[10] Lucy Dawidowicz, The War Against the Jews, 1933-1945 (New York: Bantam, pb., 1976), pp 253-254; Max Nussbaum, “Zionism Under Hitler,” Congress Weekly (New York: American Jewish Congress), Sept. 11, 1942.; F. Nicosia, The Third Reich (1985), pp 58-60, 217.; Edwin Black, The Transfer Agreement (1984), p. 175.
[11] E. Black, The Transfer Agreement (1984), pp. 328, 337.
[12] “Judea Declares War on Germany!” – London Daily Express headline, March 24th, 1933
[13] “The worldwide boycott against Germany in 1933 and the later all-out declaration of war against Germany initiated by the Zionist leaders and the World Jewish Congress enraged Hitler so that he threatened to destroy the Jews…” (Rabbi Schwartz, New York Times, Sept. 30, 1997)
[14] Yvon Gelbner, “Zionist policy and the fate of European Jewry”, in Yad Vashem studies (Jerusalem, vol. XII, p. 199).
[15] Institute for Jewish Affairs of New York, quoted by Christopher Sykes in “Crossroads to Isarl”, London 1965, and by Nathan Weinstock, “Le sionisme contre Israel,” p. 146.
[16] Lucy Dawidovitch, “A Holocaust Reader”, p. 155.
[17] “Sharon Urges Jews to go to Israel”, BBC News, 17 Nov. 2003, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3275979.stm
http://www.washington-report.org/html/focus.htm
you're free to go elsewhere if you don't like this place. Keep justifying war and killing all you want.
Lebanese won't be 100% saying " look what the Hezbollah did to our homes" You'll also hear some "look what Israel did to our homes", please don't take everyone for idiot with your polarized thoughts and biased views of this conflict.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
that is what is really scary. some people refuse to admit there is a difference between a society that values life, and a society that loves death.
Hezbollah = society? C'mon... or are you talking about Arabs being evil vs. Jews being good? mmm
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
on some posts here i don´t want to add something bec. it´s getting .....
No its scary seeing people trying to justify the killing of innocents as a by-product for a "greater" cause.....
And jsand, it is still possible not to "root" for any of the "teams" involved as those getting the heat are those inbetween each and every time. As for west moral blablabla, gimme a break. Death is death, killing is killing. People stay just as dead from Israeli airstrikes as they do from Hizbollah missiles. Though it can be said that far more is killed by the former than the latter. (And this is not a justification, defending or backing of any side, merely an observation.)
This conflict isn't even remotely black and white. There are no heroes and no villains, but a bit of both in everyone. Complicated as fuck. Which is why I find it meaningless to choose a side in this. I used to side with the palestinians, but has come to realize that their leaders are fuckheads too. I side with the innocent victims on either side, and curse their inept power-grubbing leaders.
And in this case of Lebanon, I feel that Israel has responded WAY out of ANY proportion if the pretext (or rather excuse as I think) is supposed to be the kidnapping of a few soldiers . If that is the real reason, Israel is clearly stating "fuck you towelheads, 3 of our soldiers is worth more to us than 400 of you and your homes". So in the current scenario, Israel is the overreacting bully, and does not even try not to look like it.
Bah, they all piss me off, but partisan siding with any side defending evrything "your side" do and demonizing everything "the other side" does is childish and simplistic. That goes to a lot of the Israel-criticizers on here too. I agree with the criticism, but that's not the only side or group deserving of criticism.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Anyway.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I do. Just keep following him and reposting your questions.
He'll get tired.
That truely is fucked up.
Imagine, concerning yourself with the innocent victims of two opposing violent murderers; rather than concerning yourself with choosing a side and determining whom of the two violent murderers, is the nicer guy:rolleyes: For shame....for shame.
yeah ... i noticed that certain posters did not engage in another thread that would talked about a starting point for peace ...
i don't know what you are referring to, but how can you have a starting point for peace..when one side does not want peace.
Admit it, factions on both sides dont want peace until they can dictate it word by word to their own satisfaction. That's the problem right there.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
not with this attitude ... its been said before - we need to move beyond the rhetoric of destruction of this and wiping out of that ...
if one truly wants peace - there are definite starting points ...
You have said on this thread that people are avoiding engagement with your posts. I believe I answered one of your questions on a different thread. I explained that Israel is responding to far far more than just the kidnapping of 2 of its soldiers. You never responded to me on that thread, and now here you are restating the same assumption that the last provocation by Hezbollah was the only reason for Israel's response.
That kind of arrogance will never win you any sympathy.
I could care less about sympathy. I'm not trying to change minds, because many people here have such a distorted view of reality that trying to get them to see the light is just plain hopeless. I am merely confronting these distortions, if only to show that not everyone (and not all Pearl Jam fans) think in this way.
Maybe because one murders is a mass murderer acting out of imperialist aggression and the other is perhaps acting out of self defense and has killed a tiny percentage of the people the other murderer has...
2 wrongs don't make a right, but one massive wrong is not equal to one 'minor' (sic) one.
Imperialist aggression? Then why didn't Israel attack first? And why would they withdraw six years ago if their aim was to rule Lebanon? Why leave just to come back later? And are you really going to say that the absolute number of people killed by each side determines who's morally right? That is just illogical. That's like saying that because the Americans killed more Germans then the Germans killed Americans in WWII that America was wrong and Germany was right. You just don't think before you open your mouth do you? Actually you probably don't think at all.
That's really not fair, dayan. It's not like he chooses not to think; he's just incapable of thinking.
Personal attack, unconstructive, atypical response from the 'in' crowd.
SOOOOOO...Israel can bomb civilians just because of something completely unrelated that happened 60 years ago....
Straws, grasping, hands, reaching, almost there, must...make...sense.
good point but actually, if these people were around thren in the numbers that they are today..we would never have been able to win that war. we would have been forced to meet with hitler, figure out why he FEELS the way he does, try to understand him.....LOL
the left was wrong in the past, they are wrong now, they will be wrong in the future..deep down inside they know this....its why their always angry and putting bumper stickers on everything....."i'm angry, listen to me"
Frankly, it was directed at jsand, who always shies away whenever I try to talk sense and emphasize the points that the civilians in between are the victims and that both sides' leaderships are fucked up. I remember a time before when we were heartedly arguing until i started to ask him flat out if he felt palestinian innocents were less worth than Israeli. He first dodged, and then said nothing.
As for what Israel is responding to, then of course it's not the kidnapping of the soldiers per se, but it was the excuse to launch the long-planned operation that is now unfolding under that pretext. I'm not saying that's the reason, but it's the only reason actually given. Kinda the lack of WMDs in Iraq. The real reasons are too realpolitical, selfish and unnoble for them to say them. As usual with big politics.
As for me not always responding, if I dont feel I can add any to the debate going on, I dont. If it is the thread i think it was, it was kinda beside the topic anyway, and I only made one short statement. Besides, my points were being covered by others. When someone engages me directly in debate though, I do respond. (as any search through my lengthy posts in the past will show.) You feel I shy away from responding, pm me, and I will do so. (edit) well it wasn't the thread I thought it was. Enlighten me on that account if you please.
And it was also monstrous and morally disgusting to do so. One side's wrongs do not justify another side's wrongs. And it is apples and oranges compared to the current situation, really. Few wars are close to comparable to WW2, especially not the bickering in the middle east.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Oh my, how you miss the point again. No, Israel cannot justify what it does today because of WWII, but you were saying that Israel is wrong because they've killed more people then Hezbollah has. I was using a historical example to show that your logic is shoddy. I wonder, if Hezbollah had killed more people than Israel would you be saying that Israel was in the right? (by the way this would still be ridiculous logic. don't think that I accept bad logic even if it does work in my favor)
Israel is not hiding it's motivations for action. They simply haven't been very good at getting their message out. They are acting because Hezbollah has never really stopped their war on Israel. They have maintained a low-intensity conflict in the Shebaa Farms region ever since Israel pulled out of ALL of Lebanon in 2000. They also kidnapped three Israeli soldiers from Israel just months after the Israeli withdrawl. They have been arming themselves ever since Israel pulled out and have been turning themselves into a threat that Israel simply can no longer live with. They are an operational arm of Iran, whose president speaks of wiping Israel off the map while his government seeks to build nuclear weapons. Israel is fighting to eliminate a very real threat to itself and to weaken Iran's hold on Lebanon.
no daylan. israel should not fight back. they should extend their arms and embrace the terrorists. its the only way the conflict can be solved. don't you learn anything from these libs?
lol....keep blowing them up and keep trying to tell yourself civilian deaths are okay in this war on terror.....right violence brings peace....does it not...