If you're a Muslim, it's your problem

NMyTree

binauralsounds wrote:

Where is the public outcry from the clerics around the world? SILENT!

True....so very true.

Their silence speaks louder than all the backpeddling, absurdly biased justifications, re-directing and selective reasoning done by the very few, that do speak up.

farfromglorified

NMyTree wrote:

True....so very true.

Their silence speaks louder than all the backpeddling, absurdly biased justifications, re-directing and selective reasoning done by the very few, that do speak up.

Are you of the opinion that their failures somehow negate the failures of others?

blackredyellow

blueandwhite wrote:

Why does there need to be a public outcry? If a Muslim American is law-obiding and honest, why does he or she need to actively campaign against the unlawful acts of others? I do agree that profiling the 78 year-old grandmother is a waste of time, but I don't think that nationalized Arabs owe a special duty of care to anybody. Why should they need to stand up and condemn their neighbours? Why is this their responsibility, anymore than it is ours?

Just askin.

I totally agree.

thankyougrandma

NMyTree wrote:

True....so very true.

.

that's not true at all, and anyway it's not their responsability, it's every humans responsability, as it was so very well put by farfromglorified and blueandwhite

NMyTree

sliverstain wrote:

How unconstructive. A waste of a post.

My post discredited the source of the original, disgraceful 'report'.

Please stay on topic. Sarcastic side swipes are really uncalled for given the current climate.

Thank you!!

"You are soooooooo good looking"

NCfan

farfromglorified wrote:

Islamic terrorism is not "their" problem. Islamic terrorism is a problem for anyone who loves life and freedom.

A random British muslim is no more responsible for Islamic terrorism than a random British christian. I won't go so far to call this article racist since it seems to stem from nothing more than stupidity and a lack of thought.

But in a way they are. Their Clerics should publicly decry terrorism, but they do not. The leaders of the Muslim faith are silent. Their religion has been hijacked and they are letting it happen.

NMyTree

thankyougrandma wrote:

that's not true at all, and anyway it's not their responsability, it's every humans responsability, as it was so very well put by farfromglorified and blueandwhite

I disagree. I find it extremely true.

...and it is their responsibility (as it is that of everyone else) to discourage and eliminate a radical, unreasonable and ultimately deadly variation of their beloved ideology. If in fact it is a misrepresenting, in a highly distorted, demented and unacceptable manner...their beloved "religion".

Why is it that, White Americans (and Christians) were held responsible and accountable for discouraging and eliminating the actions of a violent and murderous KKK, at the height of their violence and murder (and to some degree, are still scolded and denigrated for it ever happening); but Muslims are taken off the hook? Why?

hippiemom

sliverstain wrote:

How unconstructive. A waste of a post.

My post discredited the source of the original, disgraceful 'report'.

Please stay on topic. Sarcastic side swipes are really uncalled for given the current climate.

Thank you!!

I somehow missed the post from Kat and Sea where they announced that we have a new mod. Can any one point me in the right direction?

NMyTree

NCfan wrote:

But in a way they are. Their Clerics should publicly decry terrorism, but they do not. The leaders of the Muslim faith are silent. Their religion has been hijacked and they are letting it happen.

Is it possible that maybe, just maybe, there are elements or portions to their Islamic religion that does in fact preach such behavior; just as The Bible contains some absurdly violent and hateful passages?

farfromglorified

NCfan wrote:

But in a way they are. Their Clerics should publicly decry terrorism, but they do not. The leaders of the Muslim faith are silent.

That's simply untrue. Many clerics publicly decry terrorism throughout this world, including the Middle East. Many also do not. You cannot impugn an entire population based on the actions of a sub-set of that population.

Their religion has been hijacked and they are letting it happen.

Religion doesn't belong to one man. Did David Koresh "hijack" Christianity? Is your local priest or bishop somehow partly responsible?

Look, a religion is not an airplane. It does not have a pilot. It is a set of ideas and concepts that any number of people can use for good or for evil. And when religious ideas are used the accountability lies with the men and women who are doing the using.

farfromglorified

NMyTree wrote:

Why is it that, White Americans (and Christians) were held responsible and accountable for discouraging and eliminating the actions of a violent and murderous KKK, at the height of their violence and murder (and to some degree, are still scolded and denigrated for it ever happening); but Muslims are taken off the hook? Why?

When astutely highlighting a hypocrisy, it is good practice not to adopt it:

NMyTree wrote:

...and it is their responsibility (as it is that of everyone else) to discourage and eliminate a radical, unreasonable and ultimately deadly variation of their beloved ideology. If in fact it is a misrepresenting, in a highly distorted, demented and unacceptable manner...their beloved "religion".

thankyougrandma

NMyTree wrote:

I disagree. I find it extremely true.

...and it is their responsibility (as it is that of everyone else) to discourage and eliminate a radical, unreasonable and ultimately deadly variation of their beloved ideology. if in fact it is a misrepresenting, in a highly distorted, demented and unacceptable manner...their beloved "religion".

Why is it that, White Americans (and Christians) were held responsible and accountable for discouraging and eliminating the actions of a violent and murderous KKK, at the height of their violence and murder (and to some degree, are still scolded and denigrated for it ever happening); but Muslims are taken off the hook? Why?

As far as i know, it's the Pakistan who helped to solve those last terrorist plot, are they known as christians? So no, it's not true, muslims are not silent about this, and you can't held them responsible for others act more than me and you. When they can, they do something, but peoples are paid to solve these problems, clerics have spoke out against radical islam, you probably just haven't heard about them.

Are you responsible for the KKK? I don't feel responsible at all for them, if generalizations lead you to believe that, it's sad...

NMyTree

farfromglorified wrote:

That's simply untrue. Many clerics publicly decry terrorism throughout this world, including the Middle East. Many also do not. You cannot impugn an entire population based on the actions of a sub-set of that population.



Religion doesn't belong to one man. Did David Koresh "hijack" Christianity? Is your local priest or bishop somehow partly responsible?

Look, a religion is not an airplane. It does not have a pilot. It is a set of ideas and concepts that any number of people can use for good or for evil. And when religious ideas are used the accountability lies with the men and women who are doing the using.

Comparing an isolated David Koresh and his followers (who by the way never broke any federal laws), to a raging and sweeping worldwide rampage of physical violence and political/social manipulation by extremist Muslims; seems hardly a valid comparison.

NMyTree

farfromglorified wrote:

When astutely highlighting a hypocrisy, it is good practice not to adopt it:

That's the point.

Are we not, the citizens ( "The Westerners" ) not to blame and responsible for all the ills and problems of the Muslim global community; thus the reason they are killing innocent people all the time- here in the US, Britian and in many other places?

They kill people based on a religious and social generalization and they expect us to do something about what our government does. "We allow it" to happen, according to them. So we are all just as guilty. Many non-violent (in practice ) Muslims believe that.

So why is it different when the crap lands in their back yard?

FinsburyParkCarrots

Here's something a bit more interesting to read than Stevens's spew, but it's relative to the theme of the thread anyway:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4791847.stm

farfromglorified

NMyTree wrote:

Comparing an isolated David Koresh and his followers (who by the way never broke any federal laws), to a raging and sweeping worldwide rampage of physical violence and political/social manipulation by extremist Muslims; seems hardly a valid comparison.

Your entire argument hinges on a view that a religion is a single coherent body with a set of drivers who all hold responsibility for the direction of that vehicle. Therefore, scale is completely irrelevant. However, you may apply my question to the Crusades, the Inquisition, the corrupt acts of countless missionary systems and numerous other nefarious actions with a Western religion as an underlying motive.

Islamic terrorism is an affront to anyone who values life and freedom and rejects violent aggression. If you meet that standard, the problem belongs to you just as much as it belongs to a Muslim who also meets that standard. In the event that a Muslim fails in a defense, his failure cannot negate your own.

NMyTree

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Here's something a bit more interesting to read than Stevens's spew, but it's relative to the theme of the thread anyway:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4791847.stm

Many good points in that article including the last few paragraphs on foreign policy and this quote:


" The first thing that we need to do as a community is admit there is a problem - It is like being an alcoholic - we need to stand up and say these things and have an open and honest debate

Haras Rafiq, Sufi Muslim Council "

thankyougrandma

NMyTree wrote:

Many good points in that article including the last few paragraphs on foreign policy and this quote:


" The first thing that we need to do as a community is admit there is a problem - It is like being an alcoholic - we need to stand up and say these things and have an open and honest debate

Haras Rafiq, Sufi Muslim Council "

oh, a muslim who spoke out... interesting...

NMyTree

farfromglorified wrote:

Your entire argument hinges on a view that a religion is a single coherent body with a set of drivers who all hold responsibility for the direction of that vehicle. .

No, my argument doesn't hinge on it. They're argument has always hinged on it. I'm simply giving examples and illustrations of it. And that, is my point.

It is the hypocrisy I speak of.

farfromglorified

NMyTree wrote:

That's the point.

You reject the argument that white Christians are responsible for the KKK, right? Why accept the corollary that all arab Muslims are responsible for terrorism?

Are we not, the citizens ( "The Westerners" ) not to blame and responsible for all the ills and problems of the Muslim global community;

Of course not.

thus the reason they are killing innocent people all the time- here in the US, Britian and in many other places?

That "thus" is faulty and you know it is.

They kill people based on a religious and social generalization and they expect us to do something about what our government does. "We allow it" to happen, according to them. So we are all just as guilty. Many non-violent (in practice ) Muslims believe that.

We are partly guilty. Guilt is not always an either/or proposition. In an event of violent aggression, the aggressor is always the primary guilt holder. But a prenouncement of guilt requires a standard of justice. And in the context of Islamic terrorism vs people who desire peace and security, there are many different standards of justice that carry complex systems of guilt.

So why is it different when the crap lands in their back yard?

It isn't different at all.