Why?

NCfan

thankyougrandma wrote:

Beirut is very far from the buffer zone...

Like I said, I don't agree with all their tactics.... I just think it is logical that they have an opportunity to defend themselves.

RockinInCanada

NCfan wrote:

I hope you weren't refering to me about the manner in which I post, but whatever floats your boat.

I have problems with Israel too, but I understand that their is an end to their means. They are trying to kill of Hizbollah once and for all, or at the very least create a buffer zone of protection from them. I think Israel has every right to do this.

I think that is innocents get killed in Lebanon, then their blood is on the hands of Hizbollah. If they would leave Israel alone, their would be no reason for a response.

How can you believe that...before I get to that....one question first

Do you think that Israeli' actions will prevent future militant attacks or will their effort create a new generation of "terrorists" for the Israel citizens to be ultimately punished by?

The logic of their blood is on Hezbollah's hands is ridiculous...its the same as me saying that since one trigger happy IDF soldier shot a 13 year old girl that the citizens of Israel should be reprimanded by Hezbollah as the blood is on the IDF hands...

The token of your logic to me then justifies the 9/11 attacks from the radicals point of view...they blamed America for suppression, through Israel, so they viewed American citizen life as fair compensation....for the problems that American/Israel policy created for them....which is utterly ridicoulous....you are simply trying to justify innocent lives being wasted....that logic can be applied 10 fold for justification for an Iraqi whose family was shot down by an American soldier to blow up a mall somewhere....such backward barbaric logic.....and that is essentially is what you are trying to tell me...since innocent Israeli life was taken by Hezbollah then like-wise can be done by the IDF on the Lebonese citizens...all it does is complete a murderous cycle...where BOTH sides are guilty....and you are supporting one half of that cycle...

I am supporting an end to this cycle and that is where the majority here who get labelled slanderous terms stand....

jsand

thankyougrandma wrote:

Don't make me laugh more, self defense? Again, if a terrorist is my neighbour, does that give the USA govt. the RIGHT to kill me? NO, they have the responsability to protect me first if they want to attack the terrorist house, clearly Israel haven't take care of their responsabilities so far and their intervention have already been labelled as war crimes, spare me the self defense bullshit. If you want to justify all these kills by self defense, it means that every rockets launch into Israel is justify by self defense from the Hezbollah, it's a sick way of thinking isn't it? They must stop (all groups involved) to bomb and kill civillians and they must stop to aim at civil infrastructure. A delivery truck is not a fucking exclusivity to terrorist, yet it seem to be, in the eye of the Israel army, yet the same can be said for Hezbollah, if they want to defend themselves, target the military objective, spare the civillians...

This is the sort of pitiful moral equivalence that spurred me to start this thread in the first place. I'm not sure if its pure bias or just complete ignorance, but Israel is at WAR - their first responsibility is to protect their OWN citizens. They have repeatedly warned the Lebanese citizenry to evacuate the areas they are bombing to minimize civilian casualties. The civilian infrastructure was bombed because it is used to transport more rockets into Lebanon via Syria. You seemingly cannot comprehend the difference between the deliberate targeting of civilians and a nation trying to defend itself against unprovoked terror.

In addition, your analogy "if a terrorist is my neighbor" is not applicable here, because Hezbollah is storing its rockets in civilian homes and deliberately blending in with civilians. Why are they doing this? Because than gullible people such as yourself can buy into the lie that Israel is intentionally killing civilians.

thankyougrandma

jsand wrote:

This is the sort of pitiful moral equivalence that spurred me to start this thread in the first place. I'm not sure if its pure bias or just complete ignorance, but Israel is at WAR - their first responsibility is to protect their OWN citizens. They have repeatedly warned the Lebanese citizenry to evacuate the areas they are bombing to minimize civilian casualties. The civilian infrastructure was bombed because it is used to transport more rockets into Lebanon via Syria. You seemingly cannot comprehend the difference between the deliberate targeting of civilians and a nation trying to defend itself against unprovoked terror.

In addition, your analogy "if a terrorist is my neighbor" is not applicable here, because Hezbollah is storing its rockets in civilian homes and deliberately blending in with civilians. Why are they doing this? Because than gullible people such as yourself can buy into the lie that Israel is intentionally killing civilians.

What makes me sick, is people who justify all these killings from the Israel army as if they were justified, accidental killings is illegal, whatever you say. Yes, my logic apply to this conflict, cause if the terrorist use these tactics, it means Israel needs to come up with another plan, but they have not, instead they choose to bomb an entire country out of the map, exactly what they are trying to stop, from their ennemy. They're both criminals. Hezbollah and Israel, and it's the civillians in Lebanon and Israel that are suffering the most out of these stupid groups who just want to erase each other from the face of this planet. Fuck.

Stop calling me an ignorant or biased cause if someone is biased in this thread, it's clearly you, now go on and say that Lebanon humanitary crisis is justified (oh you probably didn't know that, but Lebanon is currently facing a humanitarian crisis, just so you know) and go on saying that they have the RIGHT to kill civillian, just don't come around calling me an ignorant when you claim those things...

edit: civillians in Lebanon, Israel, and Palestine, always forget them, sorry...

surferdude

jsand wrote:

This is the sort of pitiful moral equivalence that spurred me to start this thread in the first place. I'm not sure if its pure bias or just complete ignorance, but Israel is at WAR - their first responsibility is to protect their OWN citizens. They have repeatedly warned the Lebanese citizenry to evacuate the areas they are bombing to minimize civilian casualties.

You do realize that many Jews were repeatedly told by Germany to leave.

inmytree

jsand wrote:

Why are so many Pearl Jam fans Israel-haters. Why has this message board been turned into an anti-Israel forum. Why are there so many deliberate lies being posted about Jews on this site?

why are so many so quick to label those who simply disagree with Israel's tactics and policies as a "Israel-hater"....?

RockinInCanada

inmytree wrote:

why are so many so quick to label those who simply disagree with Israel's tactics and policies as a "Israel-hater"....?

A war-mongering tactic to flame those that disagree.....its inability to provide an effective dialogue to those who think differently....or from frustration to have to deal with not only a PJ message board majority....but a global majority....

Woodstock69

jsand wrote:

Why are so many Pearl Jam fans Israel-haters. Why has this message board been turned into an anti-Israel forum. Why are there so many deliberate lies being posted about Jews on this site?

I am and I'll always be Anti Israelian , as long as its existance treads and menaces Palestnians rights ! And I'm Anti occupation wherever it may be !

NCfan

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

How can you believe that...before I get to that....one question first

Do you think that Israeli' actions will prevent future militant attacks or will their effort create a new generation of "terrorists" for the Israel citizens to be ultimately punished by?

The logic of their blood is on Hezbollah's hands is ridiculous...its the same as me saying that since one trigger happy IDF soldier shot a 13 year old girl that the citizens of Israel should be reprimanded by Hezbollah as the blood is on the IDF hands...

The token of your logic to me then justifies the 9/11 attacks from the radicals point of view...they blamed America for suppression, through Israel, so they viewed American citizen life as fair compensation....for the problems that American/Israel policy created for them....which is utterly ridicoulous....you are simply trying to justify innocent lives being wasted....that logic can be applied 10 fold for justification for an Iraqi whose family was shot down by an American soldier to blow up a mall somewhere....such backward barbaric logic.....and that is essentially is what you are trying to tell me...since innocent Israeli life was taken by Hezbollah then like-wise can be done by the IDF on the Lebonese citizens...all it does is complete a murderous cycle...where BOTH sides are guilty....and you are supporting one half of that cycle...

I am supporting an end to this cycle and that is where the majority here who get labelled slanderous terms stand....

I believe Israel's actions are a start. I think that if Lebanon can be sealed off and the government stregnthened, then maybe the economy will pick up. If the economy picks up, then groups that deal in hate will become less popular as the citizens become less religous and more focused on material wealth. Or they become more focused on living a happier life that doesn't contend with needless bloodshed over rocks.

One thing I do know is that this cycle of hate will never end until one group or the other is marginalized by the masses. All you guys are doing is giving creedence to Hizbollah. Everybody regrets the loss of life, but there is a purpose to it. The purpose is to weaken/destroy Hizbollah so they cannot instigate trouble in the future.

You guys are just perpetuating the cycle. let Israel put an end to it. If somebody's innocent loved one gets killed, and so they join Hizbollah for vengance, then that will be their mistake and they will suffer the consequences too. Life isn't fair....

ilana

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

In this case both sides can now make a claim to self-defence...like I said before the evil actons of a few are causing death to the many who want to live normal lives....Israel RIGHT now is not innocent with their over-reactionary actions....just as Hezbollah isn't innocent for murdering innocents...but guess what...the IDF how many innocents have they killed lately...its sickening...both sides...

do you people have a problem with reading articals?
what are you fucking readerphobic
innocent lebonese peope are being killed becouse hezbolla is hiding behind its civilian population, if they moved to an isolated area the idf would follow them, killing innocent oeople is the other sides intention.

Ahnimus

ilana wrote:

do you people have a problem with reading articals?
what are you fucking readerphobic
innocent lebonese peope are being killed becouse hezbolla is hiding behind its civilian population, if they moved to an isolated area the idf would follow them, killing innocent oeople is the other sides intention.

I've read a lot of articles. Not getting much sleep lately actually. This conflict has become my life pretty well. There is a valuable question, who stands to gain?

Hezbollah captures a couple of Israeli soldiers over Lebonese prisoners, hoping to make a swap. What else could they gain? Support from more of the world as they are thrust into the spotlight as a "terrorist" group?

What about Israel? What does Israel have to gain from this invasion? 2 soldiers? at the cost of 50 others and countless civilians? Nobody goes to war over a couple of soldiers, not like this. This war on terrorism is way out of hand, it's not just the US anymore, it's all over. Are we going to have world war 3? Everyone has a war to start with someone else? Are we going to let ourselves react this way?

Maybe Israel has more to gain from this than a couple of soldiers. Those soldiers are being held somewhere and the more pressure put on hezbollah, the more likely they will be killed. This is not a feasable solution to the problem.

It seems like 9/11 truely was a changing point in our future. It gave Bush the go ahead to invade other countries chasing down minorities and invisible targets. Russia says that's a good idea and creates it's own terrorist task force. Then Israel goes balistic. It's about control. It's always about control. Bush says he wants a pro-american government in Iraq and he gets it. Pretty sick really, coup d'etat by military force. Fact is Saddam came to power by a CIA provoked coup d'etat. Then in the 80s and early 90s actually gave him chemical weapons. I mean, he's not even connected to 9/11, but that's what people think. You really have to wonder why any of this is happening? It's not about potential threats and pre-emptive strikes. It's about domination and control.

If you want to see the future just look at PNAC's website http://www.newamericancentury.org back on September 20, 2001 a bunch of rich dudes wrote president bush, in total support of the war on terrorism and mentioned the following groups. Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Hezbollah and the Palestinian Authority. We are right on queue with what they planned to happen.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/Bushletter.htm

Just a few examples of who wrote the letter.
William Kristol
Richard V. Allen
Gary Bauer
Jeffrey Bell

Crazy stuff, spend some time poking around that website and find out what happens next. Hezbollah and Hamas are going down now. They mentioned Syria and Iran, so it will probably go full scale.

Ahnimus

A lot of the people that wrote that letter work in the media or have lot's of money. They mentioned financial support in it. This is just one example of how people communicate somewhat secretly about the plans for our world. Israel and the US have been good pals through the "war on terrorism" scratches each others backs. Brittain is in there too, kicking some ass. For domination of the region, pro-western governments. It's too big.

rightondude

That's one twisted letter of copious ass kissing self-righteous agreement.

rightondude

I wonder if William Kristol wrote it and collected signatures?

http://www.newamericancentury.org/williamkristolbio.htm

Randy schuenenmann a project director of the site is also listed on the letter

http://www.newamericancentury.org/randyscheunemannbio.htm

They called it pretty good.

PaperPlates

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

I have spoke harshly about both sides....Jsand is a perfect example of a someone who posts blantant support for one side...which he has every right to... but the majority of the posters here have spoken negatively for both sides...its just that some people cannot fathom any negativity to be said about Israel...and thats when people like yourself (why you wanna stand beside Jsand I dont know) get irrate....it seems you cannot handle critisicm about Israel....and the way people like you (which I really dont think you belong in that select group of posters) try to argue is childish...you hate Israel wah wah wah.....come up with something meaningful instead of wasting forum space calling people out for being liars and anti-semites....its a pathetic and unintelligent way to argue/discuss.......

7 paragraphs of why Israel is wrong, followed by a tiny sentence like " oh and hezbollah is wrong too" isnt really speaking harshly about both sides. And ALOT of posters here do just that.