Bush reading our mail ?!?

flywallyflyflywallyfly Posts: 1,453
edited January 2007 in A Moving Train
WASHINGTON - President Bush has quietly claimed sweeping new powers to open Americans' mail without a judge's warrant, the Daily News has learned.
The President asserted his new authority when he signed a postal reform bill into law on Dec. 20. Bush then issued a "signing statement" that declared his right to open people's mail under emergency conditions.

That claim is contrary to existing law and contradicted the bill he had just signed, say experts who have reviewed it.

Bush's move came during the winter congressional recess and a year after his secret domestic electronic eavesdropping program was first revealed. It caught Capitol Hill by surprise.

"Despite the President's statement that he may be able to circumvent a basic privacy protection, the new postal law continues to prohibit the government from snooping into people's mail without a warrant," said Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Calif.), the incoming House Government Reform Committee chairman, who co-sponsored the bill.

Experts said the new powers could be easily abused and used to vacuum up large amounts of mail.

"The [Bush] signing statement claims authority to open domestic mail without a warrant, and that would be new and quite alarming," said Kate Martin, director of the Center for National Security Studies in Washington.

"The danger is they're reading Americans' mail," she said.

"You have to be concerned," agreed a career senior U.S. official who reviewed the legal underpinnings of Bush's claim. "It takes Executive Branch authority beyond anything we've ever known."

A top Senate Intelligence Committee aide promised, "It's something we're going to look into."

Most of the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act deals with mundane reform measures. But it also explicitly reinforced protections of first-class mail from searches without a court's approval.

Yet in his statement Bush said he will "construe" an exception, "which provides for opening of an item of a class of mail otherwise sealed against inspection in a manner consistent ... with the need to conduct searches in exigent circumstances."

Bush cited as examples the need to "protect human life and safety against hazardous materials and the need for physical searches specifically authorized by law for foreign intelligence collection."

White House spokeswoman Emily Lawrimore denied Bush was claiming any new authority.

"In certain circumstances - such as with the proverbial 'ticking bomb' - the Constitution does not require warrants for reasonable searches," she said.

Bush, however, cited "exigent circumstances" which could refer to an imminent danger or a longstanding state of emergency.

Critics point out the administration could quickly get a warrant from a criminal court or a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court judge to search targeted mail, and the Postal Service could block delivery in the meantime.

But the Bush White House appears to be taking no chances on a judge saying no while a terror attack is looming, national security experts agreed.

Martin said that Bush is "using the same legal reasoning to justify warrantless opening of domestic mail" as he did with warrantless eavesdropping.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/485561p-408789c.html
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Comments

  • qtegirlqtegirl Posts: 321
    WASHINGTON - President Bush has quietly claimed sweeping new powers to open Americans' mail without a judge's warrant, the Daily News has learned.
    [/url]
    I didn't know he COULD read. :)
  • flywallyflyflywallyfly Posts: 1,453
    qtegirl wrote:
    I didn't know he COULD read. :)


    Hehehe! Cheney reads it to him during storytime! Little Georgie climbs up into Uncle Dick's lap, sticks his thumb in his mouth, and starts giggling.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    future generations will someday look back at us and shake their heads in disbelief what we allowed to happen. the consolidation of power within the executive branch under this administration is extremely dangerous, and downright appaling. we only have ourselves to blame.
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    my2hands wrote:
    future generations will someday look back at us and shake their heads in disbelief what we allowed to happen. the consolidation of power within the executive branch under this administration is extremely dangerous, and downright appaling. we only have ourselves to blame.

    Agreed. This, alone, doesn't seem like a huge deal for most people. They get bills, statements, subscription and credit card offers, catalogs and other assorted junk mail. Why should they care if the gov't wants to look through it? But this is just a further erosion of our privacy and liberty. It has happened inch by inch and all in the name of security. People should be appalled. I'm afraid they'll just be apathetic.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    jeffbr wrote:
    I'm afraid they'll just be apathetic.

    too late
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    my2hands wrote:
    too late
    Well, probably too late for this president, but I don't think it is too late for us in general. I think we saw some backlash this past election which showed change can happen.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • qtegirlqtegirl Posts: 321
    This goes back to the whole signing statement issues and the fact that Bush has signed about, what?, 800 of them during his tenure?

    So far, no one has challenged him on any of them (that I know of). Until that happens, he will keep signing away.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    jeffbr wrote:
    Well, probably too late for this president, but I don't think it is too late for us in general. I think we saw some backlash this past election which showed change can happen.

    the only change that will happen is the R is replaced with the D, they are both sold to the highest bidder.
  • qtegirlqtegirl Posts: 321
    my2hands wrote:
    the only change that will happen is the R is replaced with the D, they are both sold to the highest bidder.
    I don't think the challenge would ever come from congress. I mean, those signing-statements are a nice little gadget. Since a lot of congresspeople see themselves as possible presidents, why would you put a stop to such a neat thing?

    Hillary, McCain, Obama, whoever, are probably thinking to themselves: man, I can't wait til I can do that!

    The only challenge will come from the citizenry and then through the courts. Which, should show their independence from the other branches of government and declare all signing statements unconstitutional.
  • normnorm Posts: 31,146
    Amendment IV

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
  • yield2meyield2me Posts: 1,291
    jeffbr wrote:
    Agreed. This, alone, doesn't seem like a huge deal for most people. They get bills, statements, subscription and credit card offers, catalogs and other assorted junk mail. Why should they care if the gov't wants to look through it? But this is just a further erosion of our privacy and liberty. It has happened inch by inch and all in the name of security. People should be appalled. I'm afraid they'll just be apathetic.


    If it keeps terrorists fucks from attacking us then the govt can read my mail, listen to my phone calls, come take a blood samples, photograph my dog etc. I'm willing to sacrifice some privacy to keep our people safe.
    “May you live to be 100 and may the last voice you hear be mine.” - Frank Sinatra
  • JaneNYJaneNY Posts: 4,438
    jeffbr wrote:
    Agreed. This, alone, doesn't seem like a huge deal for most people. They get bills, statements, subscription and credit card offers, catalogs and other assorted junk mail. Why should they care if the gov't wants to look through it? But this is just a further erosion of our privacy and liberty. It has happened inch by inch and all in the name of security. People should be appalled. I'm afraid they'll just be apathetic.

    Well I care. Even if they just see the bills I don't WANT them to see how much I spent on the Pearl Jam 2006 tour! On a slightly more serious note I do care. I'm not sure what else to do though, except vote for people who wouldn't support this.
    R.i.p. Rigoberto Alpizar.
    R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
    R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
  • inmytreeinmytree Posts: 4,741
    yield2me wrote:
    If it keeps terrorists fucks from attacking us then the govt can read my mail, listen to my phone calls, come take a blood samples, photograph my dog etc. I'm willing to sacrifice some privacy to keep our people safe.

    sweet fanny moses...are you really that afraid....?
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    yield2me wrote:
    If it keeps terrorists fucks from attacking us then the govt can read my mail, listen to my phone calls, come take a blood samples, photograph my dog etc. I'm willing to sacrifice some privacy to keep our people safe.
    YOU are exactly what is wrong with this country. It's people like you who not only allow but encourage the abuses of this administration.

    It must suck to be that scared.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • yield2meyield2me Posts: 1,291
    inmytree wrote:
    sweet fanny moses...are you really that afraid....?


    these people want us dead, they want our country wiped off the earth. I'd say we do what we have to do in order to keep our citizens safe. Yes it sucks to give up some of our privacy but I still say that it is worth it if we can prevent another 9/11 from happening.
    “May you live to be 100 and may the last voice you hear be mine.” - Frank Sinatra
  • inmytreeinmytree Posts: 4,741
    yield2me wrote:
    these people want us dead, they want our country wiped off the earth. I'd say we do what we have to do in order to keep our citizens safe. Yes it sucks to give up some of our privacy but I still say that it is worth it if we can prevent another 9/11 from happening.

    wow...do you even leave your house...?

    by the way, what's your real name, address, and email address (with password)...since you don't mind random people looking through your mail, you should have no problem sharing...right...
  • yield2meyield2me Posts: 1,291
    inmytree wrote:
    wow...do you even leave your house...?

    by the way, what's your real name, address, and email address (with password)...since you don't mind random people looking through your mail, you should have no problem sharing...right...


    Yes I leave my house and honestly I'm not afraid of really anyone or anything. I believe that when its your time its your time, but the point i'm making and the one you're not seeming to grasp is that if we can keep people from being killed by these idiots by letting the govt read through peoples mail that they suspect to be terrorists, then so be it.

    To answer your question about my name, address etc. If the govt wants to look through my stuff then they're welcome. They are elected by us and represent us, you don't!
    “May you live to be 100 and may the last voice you hear be mine.” - Frank Sinatra
  • normnorm Posts: 31,146
    yield2me wrote:
    Yes I leave my house and honestly I'm not afraid of really anyone or anything. I believe that when its your time its your time, but the point i'm making and the one you're not seeming to grasp is that if we can keep people from being killed by these idiots by letting the govt read through peoples mail that they suspect to be terrorists, then so be it.

    To answer your question about my name, address etc. If the govt wants to look through my stuff then they're welcome. They are elected by us and represent us, you don't!

    Suddenly the terrorists don't scare me anymore. You do.
  • inmytreeinmytree Posts: 4,741
    yield2me wrote:
    Yes I leave my house and honestly I'm not afraid of really anyone or anything. I believe that when its your time its your time, but the point i'm making and the one you're not seeming to grasp is that if we can keep people from being killed by these idiots by letting the govt read through peoples mail that they suspect to be terrorists, then so be it.

    To answer your question about my name, address etc. If the govt wants to look through my stuff then they're welcome. They are elected by us and represent us, you don't!

    so you trust everyone who works for the gov't...? good luck with that...

    then again, perhaps you're right...I'm sure bin laden sends holiday and birthday cards in the mail...with treasure maps and secret codes that can only be deciphered with a ovaltine decoder ring....

    yeah, we are soo much safer today....
  • yield2meyield2me Posts: 1,291
    inmytree wrote:
    so you trust everyone who works for the gov't...? good luck with that...

    then again, perhaps you're right...I'm sure bin laden sends holiday and birthday cards in the mail...with treasure maps and secret codes that can only be deciphered with a ovaltine decoder ring....

    yeah, we are soo much safer today....


    No, I don't trust everyone who works for the govt, but I also don't give a fuck if they read my mail...put yourself in their shoes. How do you prevent terrorists attacks when you have terrorists living in the country they want to attack?

    You're entitled to think what you want and I won't attack your beliefs, but I do think we are safer today.
    “May you live to be 100 and may the last voice you hear be mine.” - Frank Sinatra
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    yield2me wrote:
    No, I don't trust everyone who works for the govt, but I also don't give a fuck if they read my mail...put yourself in their shoes. How do you prevent terrorists attacks when you have terrorists living in the country they want to attack?

    You're entitled to think what you want and I won't attack your beliefs, but I do think we are safer today.
    Has there been a breakdown in the system? Is there a band of rogue judges out there denying warrants to investigate suspected terrorists? What the hell is the problem with getting a warrant?
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • yield2me wrote:
    No, I don't trust everyone who works for the govt, but I also don't give a fuck if they read my mail...put yourself in their shoes. How do you prevent terrorists attacks when you have terrorists living in the country they want to attack?

    You're entitled to think what you want and I won't attack your beliefs, but I do think we are safer today.

    Really?

    IMHO anti-American sentiment is at an all time high....or at the very least appears to be....honestly a terrorist has to be an idiot to send anything noteworthy through the mail....just gives me another reason to laugh at this hopeless administration....clueless
  • What I can't comprehend is that people who support these types of actions and this administration are more than likely republicans. Since when have republicans been for big brother and a government coming into people's homes?
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • inmytreeinmytree Posts: 4,741
    yield2me wrote:
    No, I don't trust everyone who works for the govt, but I also don't give a fuck if they read my mail...put yourself in their shoes. How do you prevent terrorists attacks when you have terrorists living in the country they want to attack?

    You're entitled to think what you want and I won't attack your beliefs, but I do think we are safer today.

    that's cool...

    I have to ask, do you really, honestly think that bin laden is sending this in the mail to evil-doers in the US...?

    I'm pretty sure one of the many great and wonderful things about this country is the right to privacy...do you want to change that..?
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    yield2me wrote:
    If it keeps terrorists fucks from attacking us then the govt can read my mail, listen to my phone calls, come take a blood samples, photograph my dog etc. I'm willing to sacrifice some privacy to keep our people safe.

    They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • yield2meyield2me Posts: 1,291
    inmytree wrote:
    that's cool...

    I have to ask, do you really, honestly think that bin laden is sending this in the mail to evil-doers in the US...?

    I'm pretty sure one of the many great and wonderful things about this country is the right to privacy...do you want to change that..?


    If Bin Laden is communicating to any would be terrorists in this country how do you think he is doing it? I mean if they are going to carry out some massive attack they would have to communicate with them somehow right? I don't know the answer to this, maybe you do?

    I don't want to change our right to privacy, but like i've said, if it keeps people from being killed then the govt can look and see how much i owe to visa or whatever floats their boat.
    “May you live to be 100 and may the last voice you hear be mine.” - Frank Sinatra
  • 1970RR1970RR Posts: 281
    yield2me wrote:
    If Bin Laden is communicating to any would be terrorists in this country how do you think he is doing it? I mean if they are going to carry out some massive attack they would have to communicate with them somehow right? I don't know the answer to this, maybe you do?

    I don't want to change our right to privacy, but like i've said, if it keeps people from being killed then the govt can look and see how much i owe to visa or whatever floats their boat.
    So you think its OK for fighting terrorism. What if they open up a package and a pound of weed spills out? Do they prosecute? How about if its cash from your under-the-table job? Prosecution?
    Is it acceptable to open mail for any reason, as long as there is a criminal offense involved or do you draw the line at terrorism?

    Should the government be able to show up at your door and start searching, you know, just to be sure you arent a terrorist?
  • qtegirlqtegirl Posts: 321
    yield2me wrote:
    If Bin Laden is communicating to any would be terrorists in this country how do you think he is doing it? I mean if they are going to carry out some massive attack they would have to communicate with them somehow right? I don't know the answer to this, maybe you do?

    I don't want to change our right to privacy, but like i've said, if it keeps people from being killed then the govt can look and see how much i owe to visa or whatever floats their boat.
    Here's the deal too:

    If the government suspects that Bin Laden is sending so-and-so person a christmas card, all they need to do is go to a FISA court and get a warrant. This process is secret, therefore niether so-and-so nor bin Laden know about it.

    Please explain to me why this won't work? Please explain to me why, to find one terrorist (you know, one at the time), do they need to go through each person's Visa bill? Now, I don't personally believe that they're going to read your mail or my mail, because I have no links to terrorrism. So, whose letters are they going to open without a warrant? The ones that they have reasons to suspect, right? I that case... why don't they just GET a warrant?
  • inmytreeinmytree Posts: 4,741
    yield2me wrote:
    If Bin Laden is communicating to any would be terrorists in this country how do you think he is doing it? I mean if they are going to carry out some massive attack they would have to communicate with them somehow right? I don't know the answer to this, maybe you do?

    smoke signals and two soup cans with string....
    yield2me wrote:
    I don't want to change our right to privacy, but like i've said, if it keeps people from being killed then the govt can look and see how much i owe to visa or whatever floats their boat.

    sounds good, after a warrent is obtained, that is...while I'm a fan a privacy, I'm also a fan of checks and balances...
  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    This post made me immediately think of the Pat Robertson post, not the God part, but the # of people and the fact that he referenced major cities. I'm no longer concerned about terrorists, my government is starting to worry me.

    This Bill exposes us to a very dangerous situation.

    Was it the government sending anthrax through the mail? No, but it was removed from a secured facility and look how much mail was contaminated by one letter. Sickness and death did occur. I hope the people on Capitol Hill remember what happen to them. It should remind them how easy it was to target a specific person and place.

    Procedures for suspicious packages and mail are already in place across the U.S. Additional, safety checks were put in place in all Post Offices to prevent another anthrax event, Bush's Bill takes that safety net away and the justification of terrorists is not enough for me.

    If tampered mail comes to us, are we to automatically assume it was the government that opened it. Anyone can now place a tampered envelop in your box with deadly consequences because your now in a mindset that - hey the government must have opened my mail. I bet the Unabomber is sitting in jail pissed at this missed opportunity.

    This is not a support Bush issue, or a Democratic vs Republican issue, it's not about who reads your mail issue. It's about exposing the public to a greater risk than that which you are charged to protect us from.

    I'm not into scare tactics and I don't lay awake thinking about what terrorists are plotting that's our government's responsibility. We have provided this Administration with the tools to protect us. When a tool (this Bill) has the potential to place the public at unnecessary risk, its a tool that should be taken away.

    The lessons learned from the anthrax scare, showed the danger of playing with bio-agents and how they can take on a whole new face once that jeannie is out of the bottle. Frankly, I don't want some pissed off politician playing footsie with my life to prove a, -see, see, I told you so - point.

    The thing about Democracy that people have forgotten is that - no ONE person is absolute - regardless of their title. Laws can be repelled and Congress needs to step up to the plate and rein this one in.
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
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