A Question For American Voters

mammasan

onelongsong wrote:

what about drivers licenses for illegals? where do you stand on that issue?

I think it should be put up for a vote in the state it applies to.

Kel Varnsen

onelongsong wrote:

however; if they had drivers licenses and gave an honest address; it would be easier to round them up. when i was in politics; illegals gave false addresses and false names. it's quite easy so i won't post it but if you're interested; i'll pm it to you. we now require anyone wanting ANYTHING from the state to prove they are in the us legally. we call it authorized presense.

I am just curious of something because, as a Canadian I really don't fully understand the issue of illegal immigrants coming across the Mexican Border. But in reality why not just make it easier for people to legally enter the United States? Wouldn’t that make the whole thing simpler since if these people are entering the country anyways why not make it so all they have to do is show up at the border fill out an application (even proving they are emigrating for work purposes) and then they are good to go, and then that way at least you have their information on file. Like I said I am just trying to find out what the argument against this is since I don’t know a lot about this issue.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

onelongsong wrote:

what about drivers licenses for illegals? where do you stand on that issue?

if they have licences they can vote. Isn't their something inherently wrong with allowing Mexicans to vote in a US election?

mammasan

Kel Varnsen wrote:

I am just curious of something because, as a Canadian I really don't fully understand the issue of illegal immigrants coming across the Mexican Border. But in reality why not just make it easier for people to legally enter the United States? Wouldn’t that make the whole thing simpler since if these people are entering the country anyways why not make it so all they have to do is show up at the border fill out an application (even proving they are emigrating for work purposes) and then they are good to go, and then that way at least you have their information on file. Like I said I am just trying to find out what the argument against this is since I don’t know a lot about this issue.

The issue is that corporations enjoy the cheap labor. If we made it easier for Central/South Americans to obtain legal entry then many businesses would have to pay these people a fare wage. With their illegal status many businesses can greatly reduce their overhead by highering illegals and lower wages.

blackredyellow

MrSmith wrote:

if they have licences they can vote. Isn't their something inherently wrong with allowing Mexicans to vote in a US election?

that's the problem with this debate... you are 100% wrong, having a drivers license doesn't mean that you can vote, but you hear that all of the time in these arguments.

SilverSeed

Kel Varnsen wrote:

I am just curious of something because, as a Canadian I really don't fully understand the issue of illegal immigrants coming across the Mexican Border. But in reality why not just make it easier for people to legally enter the United States? Wouldn’t that make the whole thing simpler since if these people are entering the country anyways why not make it so all they have to do is show up at the border fill out an application (even proving they are emigrating for work purposes) and then they are good to go, and then that way at least you have their information on file. Like I said I am just trying to find out what the argument against this is since I don’t know a lot about this issue.

Yeah it would. We had it before, it was called the braceros program. I think it ended in the 30's... Farmers would go to the border and get as many laborers as they needed. The details escape me, but in all it was pretty good. A lot of the labor relationships between America and Mexico today were built then.

Kel Varnsen

mammasan wrote:

The issue is that corporations enjoy the cheap labor. If we made it easier for Central/South Americans to obtain legal entry then many businesses would have to pay these people a fare wage. With their illegal status many businesses can greatly reduce their overhead by highering illegals and lower wages.

Wow that sucks. Why is it then that all the blame seems to be directed at the individuals sneaking across the border rather than the people taking advantage of them? It would seem to me if you went after the people providing the low paying jobs and eliminating some of those jobs would do a lot more to keep people out than trying to build a giant fence across the border (since really who is an unguarded chain link fence going to stop? it is not like they don't have wire cutters or ladders in Mexico.)

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

blackredyellow wrote:

that's the problem with this debate... you are 100% wrong, having a drivers license doesn't mean that you can vote, but you hear that all of the time in these arguments.

Voting in most places is ridiculously low security. In a lot of places you can walk into a precinct, give the name of a registered voter and vote. The registered voter doesnt even have to be alive. A license will make it easier.

onelongsong

Kel Varnsen wrote:

I am just curious of something because, as a Canadian I really don't fully understand the issue of illegal immigrants coming across the Mexican Border. But in reality why not just make it easier for people to legally enter the United States? Wouldn’t that make the whole thing simpler since if these people are entering the country anyways why not make it so all they have to do is show up at the border fill out an application (even proving they are emigrating for work purposes) and then they are good to go, and then that way at least you have their information on file. Like I said I am just trying to find out what the argument against this is since I don’t know a lot about this issue.

i heard something on the news that the illegals are now going straight to canada. not all of course but the attraction of free medical care and easier immigration laws; is quite attractive to opressed people. i suspect you will be seeing the effects of illegal immigration soon.

at this point in time; we don't have enough jobs for the americans we have here already. a trip to any city's slums will prove this. another problem is those who sneek over the border to birth an american citizen. they now get social services such as welfare and food stamps and also medicaid. we don't have enough money to help the poor we already have here. as far as making it easier to immigrate here; there's a list of people trying to immigrate legally and the list has a wait of many years.
if 12 million people were added to the social services sector of canadian government; how much would your taxes increase?
another aspect is that most of these people send a good portion of the money they make back to mexico. this cripples the economy by taking american money out of the country. the money eventually ends up in the hands of el presidente which is why the mexican government won't help.
i hope that helps. if not; ask away. i'd enjoy an intelligent conversation.

SilverSeed

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Wow that sucks. Why is it then that all the blame seems to be directed at the individuals sneaking across the border rather than the people taking advantage of them? It would seem to me if you went after the people providing the low paying jobs and eliminating some of those jobs would do a lot more to keep people out than trying to build a giant fence across the border (since really who is an unguarded chain link fence going to stop? it is not like they don't have wire cutters or ladders in Mexico.)

Yeah you're using entirely too much logic here. Here in America we need to convolute every argument to the point that nothing gets done.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Wow that sucks. Why is it then that all the blame seems to be directed at the individuals sneaking across the border rather than the people taking advantage of them? It would seem to me if you went after the people providing the low paying jobs and eliminating some of those jobs would do a lot more to keep people out than trying to build a giant fence across the border (since really who is an unguarded chain link fence going to stop? it is not like they don't have wire cutters or ladders in Mexico.)

Some states are doing that now. At least on the surface.

onelongsong

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Wow that sucks. Why is it then that all the blame seems to be directed at the individuals sneaking across the border rather than the people taking advantage of them? It would seem to me if you went after the people providing the low paying jobs and eliminating some of those jobs would do a lot more to keep people out than trying to build a giant fence across the border (since really who is an unguarded chain link fence going to stop? it is not like they don't have wire cutters or ladders in Mexico.)

thank you. here in arizona we have a law against hiring illegals. the first time a business is caught; they get a big fine. next; their business license is taken away for 3 years.

the fence is mainly for those coming in to committ crimes. mostly the smuggling of guns and drugs.

SilverSeed

onelongsong wrote:

i heard something on the news that the illegals are now going straight to canada. not all of course but the attraction of free medical care and easier immigration laws; is quite attractive to opressed people. i suspect you will be seeing the effects of illegal immigration soon.

at this point in time; we don't have enough jobs for the americans we have here already. a trip to any city's slums will prove this. another problem is those who sneek over the border to birth an american citizen. they now get social services such as welfare and food stamps and also medicaid. we don't have enough money to help the poor we already have here. as far as making it easier to immigrate here; there's a list of people trying to immigrate legally and the list has a wait of many years.
if 12 million people were added to the social services sector of canadian government; how much would your taxes increase?
another aspect is that most of these people send a good portion of the money they make back to mexico. this cripples the economy by taking american money out of the country. the money eventually ends up in the hands of el presidente which is why the mexican government won't help.
i hope that helps. if not; ask away. i'd enjoy an intelligent conversation.

Of course we have enough jobs, as pointed out earlier they come over and take low wage jobs most Americans won't do. And where do you get that we don't have enough money to support our poor? If we can wage this war and spend billions certainly we can feed our own. It's a question of priorities and they're screwed up here. Finally, though they certainly send a portion of their wages home, they generate vast sums of revenue dollars (if you live here you consume here...).

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

SilverSeed wrote:

Of course we have enough jobs, as pointed out earlier they come over and take low wage jobs most Americans won't do.

I hear this all the time. Americans would be happy to do the job for honest pay. Americans won't and can't compete with illegals doing the same work at a fraction of the wage. If illegals were run out, then the businesses would have to pay employees what they should. Poor americans can't even legally work for the same pay as an illegal even if they wanted to.

True, American government wastes a lot of money, but You don't help America's poor by giving them money and handouts, you help by giving them jobs.

Its the huge corporations that hire illegals that should "give back" to the poor (by hiring them and paying them MORE!), not the government. They have the money. THis is part of the reason why the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer.

SilverSeed

I hear this all the time. Americans would be happy to do the job for honest pay. Americans won't and can't compete with illegals doing the same work at a fraction of the wage. If illegals were run out, then the businesses would have to pay employees what they should. Poor americans can't even legally work for the same pay as an illegal even if they wanted to.

True, American government wastes a lot of money, but You don't help America's poor by giving them money, you help them by giving them jobs.[/quote]

Then it goes back to what KV said, that we need to go after the businesses who create the situation we're seeing. What I said holds: Americans won't do those jobs. Be it because of the type of work or the pay, the current social climate dictates we use "illegal" labor.

mammasan

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Wow that sucks. Why is it then that all the blame seems to be directed at the individuals sneaking across the border rather than the people taking advantage of them? It would seem to me if you went after the people providing the low paying jobs and eliminating some of those jobs would do a lot more to keep people out than trying to build a giant fence across the border (since really who is an unguarded chain link fence going to stop? it is not like they don't have wire cutters or ladders in Mexico.)

As some have already mentioned, some states are starting to punish businesses who knowingly hire illegals. Also your arguement of punishing the businesses is completely logical and makes perfect sense, but of course there are large industries, with strong lobby groups, who make a lot of money because of illegal employees.

onelongsong

mammasan wrote:

I think it should be put up for a vote in the state it applies to.

great idea. but my point here is why are candidates using this in their platform? this is a STATE issue and the feds can't interfere with state issues. unless of course the federal government wants to take care of all drivers licenses for the entire country. since they can't tell the states what to do with thier own state matters; they'd have to make the issuing of drivers licenses a federal responsability. and; you can't have federal drivers license facilities stationed in a state.

Kel Varnsen

SilverSeed wrote:

Then it goes back to what KV said, that we need to go after the businesses who create the situation we're seeing. What I said holds: Americans won't do those jobs. Be it because of the type of work or the pay, the current social climate dictates we use "illegal" labor.

I saw an interesting news show on CBC a few years ago that this post made me think of. This company in Canada built like the worlds biggest slaughterhouse somewhere in northern Alberta. The people who ran it were getting their workers, legally, from some of the worst places in the world (as far as living conditions, places like Sudan and Bosnia when it was a war zone). People were coming like crazy to work in this slaughter house, even though it was extremely back breaking and dangerous labour (due to the nature of the work not because of how the place was being run). But new people were still being brought in all the time. The crazy thing was even though a lot of the people from the town didn't want to work those jobs; they were still pissed off about all the new immigrants coming to their town.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

SilverSeed wrote:

Then it goes back to what KV said, that we need to go after the businesses who create the situation we're seeing. What I said holds: Americans won't do those jobs. Be it because of the type of work or the pay, the current social climate dictates we use "illegal" labor.

oh yeah. definately. Its just part of a bigger problem.

mammasan

onelongsong wrote:

great idea. but my point here is why are candidates using this in their platform? this is a STATE issue and the feds can't interfere with state issues. unless of course the federal government wants to take care of all drivers licenses for the entire country. since they can't tell the states what to do with thier own state matters; they'd have to make the issuing of drivers licenses a federal responsability. and; you can't have federal drivers license facilities stationed in a state.

The federal government has intervened in state's rights many times before. In fact state's rights have all but disappeared. Just look at seatbelt laws and No Child Left Behind, I know I'm going to catch heat on this one but Roe v. Wade as well. All the feredal government has to do is tie this to federal money for roads, like they did with the seatbelt laws, and the states will have no choice but to adopt it.