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Wm3

yield2meyield2me Posts: 1,291
edited January 2007 in A Moving Train
What are your thoughts on this case? I just recently learned of it and watched the HBO documentaries. I've started to do some reading on it as well. Anyway I'm just curious about what your thoughts are....discuss
“May you live to be 100 and may the last voice you hear be mine.” - Frank Sinatra
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  • miller8966miller8966 Posts: 1,450
    Guilty
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    I think guilty as well.

    I'm pretty sure there were some flaws with their trial and the police handling of the case, but I still think they are guilty.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    know1 wrote:
    I think guilty as well.

    I'm pretty sure there were some flaws with their trial and the police handling of the case, but I still think they are guilty.

    Which is why the case should be re-tried.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    mammasan wrote:
    Which is why the case should be re-tried.

    I could agree with that.

    What I can't agree with is people who call for them to be freed.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    know1 wrote:
    I could agree with that.

    What I can't agree with is people who call for them to be freed.

    I would say freed from the original sentence. The court could still decide to hold them without bail untill the next trial.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • yield2meyield2me Posts: 1,291
    know1 wrote:
    I think guilty as well.

    I'm pretty sure there were some flaws with their trial and the police handling of the case, but I still think they are guilty.


    what makes you think they're guilty? I just don't see it in the evidence...I don't think they did it
    “May you live to be 100 and may the last voice you hear be mine.” - Frank Sinatra
  • JonnyPistachioJonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    An extremely poor job by most officials surrounding the case. The justice system failed miserably on this one, but as for if they are guilty or not, I feel we will never know.
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    I must have missed it, damn not having cable.

    WTF is Wm3?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I must have missed it, damn not having cable.

    WTF is Wm3?

    West Memphis Three - go here for info: http://www.wm3.org/
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Reasonable Doubt - Not Guilty

    There is sufficient doubt that these 3 men commited the crimes.

    Here is an example of one of many flawed whitness testimonies.
    Carson testified that he said "Just between me and you, did you do it? I won’t say a word. He said yes and he went into detail about it. It was just me and Jason [Baldwin]. He told me he dismembered the kids, or I don’t know exactly how many kids. He just said he dismembered them. He sucked the blood from the penis and scrotum and put the balls in his mouth."

    Judge Burnett ruled that the defense could not tell the jury that Michael Carson was a medically-diagnosed LSD addict because substance abuse was not sufficient grounds to argue the probativeness of a witness’s truthfulness.

    Seriously, apparently taking psychoactive drugs doesn't impact the truthfulness of experience. That's fucking bullshit, but at least the whitness was thrown out of the trial for other reasons.

    http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/memphis/question_8.html
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Whoa, dudes. There is literally no evidence against these guys.

    Of course it went to trial, and jurys are usually blood-thirsty murderers too.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Post-sentence(New) Evidence
    The conclusions which Turvey draws from the evidence available were that:

    The site where the bodies were found was a dump-site only and not the primary crime scene, it is more likely that there were actually four scenes involved in this crime: the abduction site, the attack site, a vehicle used to transport the boys and their bikes, then finally the dump-site in the woods.
    The extent of the injuries to the victims, especially the emasculation of Christopher Byers, would have meant a great deal of blood would have been at the scene. In this situation there was virtually no blood.
    There were search parties moving through the area which would not have given the assailant(s) the time needed to carry out the attack without being disturbed.
    The nature of the injuries to Christopher Byers would have caused him to scream. No screaming was heard by searchers or local residents near the site.
    There were no mosquito bites on any of the bodies which would be expected if they had been in the woods for the period of time that would have been required to carry out the attack.
    James Moore had an unexplained directional pattern abrasion just below the right anterior shoulder area. This abrasion was created by forceful directional contact with something that was not found at the scene.
    The nature of the attack required light, time and uninterrupted privacy. It was dark in the woods. The crime scene would more likely be a secluded structure or residence away from the immediate area of attention.
    The assailant was someone known and trusted by the victims. The physical evidence, crime scene and victimology in this case are most consistent with the classification of a Battered Child or Child-Custodial Homicide.
    The fact that there were three children together suggests that it would have been difficult for the offender to take all three children unless he was able to gain their trust.
    The children would have been taken to another location before the attack began which implies a level of trust, also that intimidation and fear would have been factors in gaining control, suggesting that the assailant was much larger and stronger than the victims.
    The violence and level of force in this attack was punitive in nature, indicating that the offender was punishing the boys for some real or perceived wrong.
    The difference in the nature of injuries in the three boys indicates that the assailant had a different relationship with each of the boys. James Moore is described by Turvey as a "collateral victim" who was probably only attacked because he was with the other two. The severity of the blows to his head and the lack of damage from the ligatures on his ankles and wrists suggest that he was unconscious throughout the attack. The anger of the assailant , manifested in victim damage and sexual mutilation, is directed primarily at Steven and Christopher, indicating a strong personal association with them.
    That all of the related physical evidence was disposed of at the dump site suggests that the assailant believed he may be investigated because of his relationship to the victims and so had to dispose of any evidence.
    The dump site being so close to the point of abduction suggests that the assailant knew the area well and lived close by, to enable a quick return to an area of safety. He would also have to have been to the site recently to know that there would be water there at the time.
    The type of bite marks are most often seen in Battered Child Homicide.
    The presence of healed injuries on Christopher Byers’s body, Melissa Byers’s concern that Christopher was being sexually abused which she expressed to a school counselor before his death, medical records, reported behavioral problems and Chris’s diagnosis with ADD and other behavioral disorders, are all strong indicators that Christopher Byers had been physically, if not sexually, abused prior to this attack.
    Steven Branch had lacerations on his penis which were probably self-inflicted indicating a sexualized child, usually associated with sexual abuse.
    There were probably two assailants. The primary assailant would have been a man whose focus was directed toward Christopher Byers. His accomplice may have been male or female.
    Three victims would have been easier to control if there were two attackers.
    The nature and range of injuries to Steven and Christopher indicate two separate assailants with very different ways of expressing their rage.
    The Battered Child nature of the bite marks on Steven Branch is more often associated with a female offender.
    The attack on Steven Branch was more punitive in nature than sexual.
    The "suck mark" type bite marks on Christopher Byers are more sexually oriented. The attack on his genitals suggests an offender who is ashamed of his own sexuality, possibly confused and angered by his own sexual impulses towards males. The offender was punishing Christopher for his sexuality and to establish, or re-establish, sexual ownership of him.
    The primary offender in these murders is described by Brent Turvey as possibly having the following characteristics:

    Showing violent and selfish sexual behaviors.
    A very selfish and explosive individual with a potentially violent temper.
    Wants to be perceived as not caring how others view him.
    Would be described as hostile, angry and as someone who carries grudges.
    Would project a macho, heterosexual, in-control image.
    An egocentric individual who cannot tolerate the criticism or shortcomings of others.
    Requires instant gratification for his impulses and can react violently when those impulses are not satisfied.
    He may be glib and superficial and extremely manipulative.
    Dominant in all relationships with women.
    Very possessive and irrationally jealous in his sexual relationships, possibly manifesting in violent behavior acted out towards the females in his life.
    Would have a level of knowledge and sophistication in criminal activity through repeated offences, exposure to law enforcement training and techniques or previous arrests for similar crimes. May have spent some time in prison or commits petty crimes to support himself. Probably will have past arrests for drugs, violent behavior and assault.
    Very likely to have been married more than once. A misogynistic attitude toward women, and past relationships would have involved a great deal of physical and/or emotional abuse.
    If married at the time of the offence, the marriage would have been in crisis. His wife may have been the compliant partner in this crime.
    It is very likely that the offender would have been involved in the search for the boys, possibly dumping the bodies with the intent of being the one to find them in order to shift blame.
    Offender will probably have a collection of knives, and will possibly have a similar interest in firearms and guns.
    Will probably have a drinking problem or a drug habit supported by criminal activity.
    He is probably unemployed, unable to hold down a full-time job for a number of behavioral reasons.
    He most probably used his own vehicle in this attack which would most likely be masculine, like a truck.
    http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/memphis/evidence_11.html
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Gee, Ahnimus, though I'm agreeable to your conclusions, you went from 0 (no knowledge of the WM3) to 60 (your conclusion) in less than 13 minutes.
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    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    Gee, Ahnimus, though I'm agreeable to your conclusions, you went from 0 (no knowledge of the WM3) to 60 (your conclusion) in less than 13 minutes.

    I speed read ;)
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    If only it were possible to have an expert jury. A jury that doesn't take social prejudice to heart, a jury that can detatch it's self from the crimes and the victims and look at the case objectively.

    It never happens, which is why almost every serious case that goes to trial is found in favor of social opinion. O.J. Trial as an example.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • yield2meyield2me Posts: 1,291
    Ahnimus wrote:
    If only it were possible to have an expert jury. A jury that doesn't take social prejudice to heart, a jury that can detatch it's self from the crimes and the victims and look at the case objectively.

    It never happens, which is why almost every serious case that goes to trial is found in favor of social opinion. O.J. Trial as an example.


    I'm pretty sure that the social opinion of O.J. was that he was guilty as hell...so I don't see how that example relates here.
    “May you live to be 100 and may the last voice you hear be mine.” - Frank Sinatra
  • musicismylife78musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    its a tragedy when your musical tastes, book tastes and style and clothes taste is suggested as evidence for a murder.

    For all those who say the WM3 are guilty I propose this: suggest one piece of evidence presented in court that shows that they committed the crime.

    Far as I know, there is no DNA evidence linking them, no clothes evidence, no hair evidence, no eyewitness evidence. none.

    There is a reason ed supports this cause, and a reason why I support it.

    Imagine, if this crime had taken place in New York City. Black t shirt wearing, heav metal loving, stephen king reading teens are a dime a dozen there. In fact I am one of them. It doesnt make sense to suggest that someone committed a crime based on how they look, or what religion they may have.

    The West Memphis Three should be free
  • miller8966miller8966 Posts: 1,450
    Cheguevara6 wrote:
    its a tragedy when your musical tastes, book tastes and style and clothes taste is suggested as evidence for a murder.

    For all those who say the WM3 are guilty I propose this: suggest one piece of evidence presented in court that shows that they committed the crime.

    Far as I know, there is no DNA evidence linking them, no clothes evidence, no hair evidence, no eyewitness evidence. none.

    There is a reason ed supports this cause, and a reason why I support it.

    Imagine, if this crime had taken place in New York City. Black t shirt wearing, heav metal loving, stephen king reading teens are a dime a dozen there. In fact I am one of them. It doesnt make sense to suggest that someone committed a crime based on how they look, or what religion they may have.

    The West Memphis Three should be free

    http://www.nprsucks.com/opinion1.htm
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    miller8966 wrote:
    http://www.nprsucks.com/opinion1.htm

    Well, I got to page 3 and the article is so full of crap, I can't read any more.

    The first page or two is all about some film that was made, then he goes on to whine about having his thread deleted from a message board. It was probably deleted because of the content that was posted in response to his antagonism, not his post by it's self.

    There was very little evidence that these three men were convicted on. That evidence was clothing fibres that appeared microscopically similar to one of the boy's mother's bathrobe. And an imprint from a knife handle that matched a knife found near the scene, however, the knife owned by one of the boys had a compass in the handle and did not match the weapon recovered.

    During the trial it was presented as the murder weapon, the prosecution claimed that the knife was responsible for the "cut" marks on one of the victim's face. However, Turvey, a forensic investigator that wasn't available at the time of the trial, investigated and found the wounds to be "bite" marks and further investigation revealed that they did not match any of the three boys teeth. Turvey also suggests that this was not a cult killing, rather a result of prolonged child abuse. The damage to one of the boys genitels is believed to be caused by a person with sexual abnormality by criminal profilers.

    It's obvious that the depth of investigation and the evidence presented at the time of trial was insufficient to prove the West Memphis 3 guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • miller8966miller8966 Posts: 1,450
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Well, I got to page 3 and the article is so full of crap, I can't read any more.

    The first page or two is all about some film that was made, then he goes on to whine about having his thread deleted from a message board. It was probably deleted because of the content that was posted in response to his antagonism, not his post by it's self.

    There was very little evidence that these three men were convicted on. That evidence was clothing fibres that appeared microscopically similar to one of the boy's mother's bathrobe. And an imprint from a knife handle that matched a knife found near the scene, however, the knife owned by one of the boys had a compass in the handle and did not match the weapon recovered.

    During the trial it was presented as the murder weapon, the prosecution claimed that the knife was responsible for the "cut" marks on one of the victim's face. However, Turvey, a forensic investigator that wasn't available at the time of the trial, investigated and found the wounds to be "bite" marks and further investigation revealed that they did not match any of the three boys teeth. Turvey also suggests that this was not a cult killing, rather a result of prolonged child abuse. The damage to one of the boys genitels is believed to be caused by a person with sexual abnormality by criminal profilers.

    It's obvious that the depth of investigation and the evidence presented at the time of trial was insufficient to prove the West Memphis 3 guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

    With all the money raised for these 3 why hasnt there been a retrial?

    Probaly cause theirs no need too.
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    miller8966 wrote:
    With all the money raised for these 3 why hasnt there been a retrial?

    Probaly cause theirs no need too.

    Because the justice system is anything but just.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • miller8966miller8966 Posts: 1,450
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Because the justice system is anything but just.

    Dude their guilty.....All your info comes from wm3.org page.
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    miller8966 wrote:
    Dude their guilty.....All your info comes from wm3.org page.

    Dude no it doesn't, if you had fucking read the thread before posting your stupid garbage you would realize that my information came from a very thorough case study.

    http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/memphis/index_1.html
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • miller8966miller8966 Posts: 1,450
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Dude no it doesn't, if you had fucking read the thread before posting your stupid garbage you would realize that my information came from a very thorough case study.

    http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/memphis/index_1.html

    very slanted
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    miller8966 wrote:
    very slanted

    WTF are you talking about? The crime scene was compromised, there was very little evidence left behind, except a couple of fibres from a bathrobe.

    Crimlibrary.com documents all the murder cases in history with very complete information and updates on the cases.

    Your source, is the spewing of horseshit by some stupid fuck!
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • miller8966miller8966 Posts: 1,450
    Ahnimus wrote:
    WTF are you talking about? The crime scene was compromised, there was very little evidence left behind, except a couple of fibres from a bathrobe.

    Crimlibrary.com documents all the murder cases in history with very complete information and updates on the cases.

    Your source, is the spewing of horseshit by some stupid fuck!

    Yea but their still in jail...so i win
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    miller8966 wrote:
    Yea but their still in jail...so i win

    How do you win anything from that?

    You lose buddy, we all lose!
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    yield2me wrote:
    I'm pretty sure that the social opinion of O.J. was that he was guilty as hell...so I don't see how that example relates here.

    Depends on which sub-culture you asked at the time.

    Sure, probably everyone thought he was guilty. But the black sub-culture was still rooting for Johnny Cochrane.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • yield2meyield2me Posts: 1,291
    miller8966 wrote:
    Yea but their still in jail...so i win


    nice 5 year old come back dude
    “May you live to be 100 and may the last voice you hear be mine.” - Frank Sinatra
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    This little byte describes the justice system quite nicely...

    Once the arrests were made the adversarial legal system, which sets two opposing sides against each other in a quest to win rather than reveal the truth, worked to reinforce the view of the crime as perceived by the police in the first instance. It was the defense team’s job to refute their case and cast doubt in the minds of the jury. Whichever side could tell the best story would win.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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