Universal Health Care

soulsinging

farfromglorified wrote:

Not at all. The fact that you have to force this wonderful benefit upon people shows how silly the point is.



Shame on you for "letting this man die", huh?

hey, i did my part with my taxes and didnt bitch all the way to the bank about it. when i graduate, i will make plenty of money. if you hear me bitching about the taxes i pay then, you're free to call me out on it. but i would pay those taxes happily AND advocate for some sort of national health care plan. it doesn't have to be forced on people, people have to be convinced, just as we had to convince people slavery was wrong. it's a social movement and it's gaining traction. if you'd like, you can move to africa. i hear they're pretty lax about governmental oversight of any part of your life. few taxes, little power to force you to pay them. it's working great for them isn't it?

farfromglorified

soulsinging wrote:

hey, i did my part with my taxes

How? Universal Health Care doesn't exist in this country. Not a cent you've given has gone to his cancer. Does this "obligation" you speak of only actually exist when we pass UHC?

miller8966

Not having medical insurance is a good way to make people get jobs and not just leach off the system

soulsinging

farfromglorified wrote:

How? Universal Health Care doesn't exist in this country. Not a cent you've given has gone to his cancer. Does this "obligation" you speak of only actually exist when we pass UHC?

medicaid will help pay for the remainder of his treatment once he sells the shirt of his back so he can retire with his wife. like i said, we do what we can. at the moment, there's little i can do becos i live on loans not income. in the future, when i have income, i will do as much as i can. in the meantime, i hope others will pick up the slack. in the future, i will pick up their slack. becos nobody can plan for all eventualities and we all need help sometimes.

miller8966

soulsinging wrote:

medicaid will help pay for the remainder of his treatment once he sells the shirt of his back so he can retire with his wife. like i said, we do what we can. at the moment, there's little i can do becos i live on loans not income. in the future, when i have income, i will do as much as i can. in the meantime, i hope others will pick up the slack. in the future, i will pick up their slack. becos nobody can plan for all eventualities and we all need help sometimes.

What kind of loans do you live on?

soulsinging

miller8966 wrote:

What kind of loans do you live on?

federal stafford and perkins loans. ive also got a very sizable scholarship that halved my loan debt.

jeffbr

soulsinging wrote:

it doesn't have to be forced on people, people have to be convinced, just as we had to convince people slavery was wrong. it's a social movement and it's gaining traction.

Do you seriously believe this? Do you think that the government will be able to make this voluntary, and have sufficient compliance?

soulsinging wrote:

if you'd like, you can move to africa. i hear they're pretty lax about governmental oversight of any part of your life. few taxes, little power to force you to pay them. it's working great for them isn't it?

Africa is a continent. Which country are you thinking about there? Most of the countries I'm familiar with are anything but liassez faire. Most seem to be very authoritarian and oppressive.

farfromglorified

soulsinging wrote:

im in favor of a flat tax, but that's still a tax.

Are you in favor of a true flat tax, meaning that you take the total budget, divide it by the total population, and start sending out bills?

Either way, yes, it's still a tax. That is until you simply give people the option to not buy your products.

your business is not running the country. you live in a democracy.

My business isn't running the country. But you didn't say anything about "running the country" here:

"the only way to secure funding for necessary social institutions is to force people to distribute that cost evenly"

we hired the government to manage certain collective resources for us.

"We"??? I didn't hire anyone to manage any "collective resources".

we did not hire your business to do shit for us.

Yep. Notice how I didn't send you a bill.

you agreed to the hiring by living here.

HOW???? Seriously, answer me this question and quit avoiding it. How did I "agree" to something simply by existing?

if it's so unjust living here, you're free to get the fuck out, like i said.

I am free to "get the fuck out". So is your government, and so are you. I'd never ask either one of you to "get the fuck out". Why do you feel the need to ask me?

i dont know, why do we have to force you to add money for police and road construction?

You have to force me to pay for police because the possible practical losses I face are less than the price you're charging me.

You don't have to force me to pay for roads. I'd happily pay for them.

you've got it backwards, ive got my way. i call YOUR bluff. let's end taxation and let government disappear. we'll see how long you feel free when you're holed up in an armored compound afraid to step outside your house.

Ok!! I'm not bluffing.

uh... where? this is the weakest point i've ever seen you make. i dont even know what morehouse college is.

It's an all-black school in Atlanta. Figured it would go well with the Klan thing. But if you have the right to sign me up for the government's deals, why don't I have the right to sign you up for the Klan's?

everyone in the united state lives by united states rules.

Oh. In that case, any rule is a good rule, so long as it comes from the United States?

not everyone in the united states lives by klan rules.

If the Klan had enough guns, we would.

why dont you quit your whining about the horrible oppression of taxation and deal with reality.

Hehe....those things go hand in hand. Anyway, I'm not curled up in the fetal position here, if that's what you're implying.

arguing with you is like arguing with a kindergartener...

Thank you. I've held many kindergarteners in high esteem.

you both live in your own happy little fantasy world that has nothing to do with how the real world operates. it's easy to bitch about taxes when you know you'll never actually get what you want and have to live without a government.

If that were the case, I'd be bitching about not being married to Alessandra Ambrosio.

surferdude

Actually the US does have universal medical coverage, called Medicaid.

It should be peoples last resort though as there is a means test to it. Which basically means that if you have the means or resources to pay for the treatment any other way then that is the first option.

So the least people can do on this board is ask for a revamoing of the current universal medical coverage where it loses it's means test. Of course premiums will go up significantly but that's a choice for people to make.

jlew24asu

jeffbr wrote:

Africa is a continent. Which country are you thinking about there? Most of the countries I'm familiar with are anything but liassez faire. Most seem to be very authoritarian and oppressive.

I thought I was crazy for a second there.

Kann

farfromglorified wrote:

Either way, yes, it's still a tax. That is until you simply give people the option to not buy your products.

I thought I understood your points, but I really don't.
What do you think a government is? What should be it's duty? What do you owe it and what does it owe you? And finally do you believe you vote to have someone represent your ideas?

edit :

Africa is a continent. Which country are you thinking about there? Most of the countries I'm familiar with are anything but liassez faire. Most seem to be very authoritarian and oppressive.

I think what he meant is many countries in Africa will let you have it your way with your money as long as you have enough money. And some actually do.

soulsinging

farfromglorified wrote:

HOW???? Seriously, answer me this question and quit avoiding it. How did I "agree" to something simply by existing?

are you or are you not a citizen of the united states? if you are, you have agreed to be part of their citizenship and thus to live by the rules the majority promulgates. if you do not sanction this government, like i said, you are free to leave and join a country that better reflects your anarchist ideals.

now i suggest you join the local militia. that there big scary government is a-fixin to deny you your rights. better be ready to defend them to the death.

is also advise you to be careful about saying you don't recognize the legitimacy of the us government. you could end up in gitmo the way things are these days.

farfromglorified

Some answers:

Kann wrote:

What do you think a government is?

A government is a monopoly on force, used to dictate rules and regulation upon a population. I say that completely without any negative connotations. Government, at its fundamental level, is not necessarily evil and can be, in fact, a good thing.

What should be it's duty?

To protect the rights of all its citizens. The fundamental human rights are quite simple:

Creation of mind and body
Freedom of mind and body
Ownership of mind and body

Those rights can be reasonably extended to "Life" itself and a more nuanced subset of Freedom called "Liberty". Furthermore, in some cases, those rights may also be reasonably extended to property rights, the individual ownership of things not directly part of the mind or the body but rather products of them.

What do you owe it and what does it owe you?

Government "owes" me a protection of my rights. However, it only "owes" me that so long as I recognize that those rights exist in my fellow men. That is my base payment, a requirement for the same recognition of my rights. If I forfeit that payment, the government has absolutely no duty to me.

And finally do you believe you vote to have someone represent your ideas?

Theoretically, yes and, typically in American practice, to a much greater extent than pretty much anyplace else in the world.

However, I don't need anyone to represent my ideas. These "representatives" have little to offer me except freedom from their schemes. Since their very existence and position is based on those schemes, I doubt very much they'll actually represent my interests there.

I think what he meant is many countries in Africa will let you have it your way with your money as long as you have enough money.

No. What he meant is that his government owns this nation and has the right to decide who may occupy the arbitrary borders it has laid down based on nothing more than whims. Since I don't like the terms of the relatively one-sided offer I've been given, I should leave. "Africa" is irrelevant to the point.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

farfromglorified

soulsinging wrote:

are you or are you not a citizen of the united states?

Yes, I am a citizen, by the classification of those United States. But I've never "agreed" to anything.

if you are, you have agreed to be part of their citizenship and thus to live by the rules the majority promulgates.

How? "Agree" implies consent, given by me. When have I consented? Where did I consent? Where is the contract?

if you do not sanction this government, like i said, you are free to leave and join a country that better reflects your anarchist ideals.

Hehe...your government is free to leave too. Why do either of us have to leave?

now i suggest you join the local militia. that there big scary government is a-fixin to deny you your rights. better be ready to defend them to the death.

Are you listening? I reject violent aggression. Why would I sign up with the "local militia"? What do they have to offer me?

is also advise you to be careful about saying you don't recognize the legitimacy of the us government. you could end up in gitmo the way things are these days.

Gitmo, and the machine behind it, is the legitimacy of the government.

Kann

farfromglorified wrote:

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Thanks for the answers, I think I understand better, but we have radically different views on governments. It's hard to grasp your points without knowing what your views are on rights and duty in a nation. We're both on one side of the atlantic so I don't mind agreeing to disagree with you, I'm not ready yet to give up the tutoring my government represents to me and my fellow citizens.

farfromglorified

Kann wrote:

Thanks for the answers, I think I understand better, but we have radically different views on governments. It's hard to grasp your points without knowing what your views are on rights and duty in a nation. We're both on one side of the atlantic so I don't mind agreeing to disagree with you, I'm not ready yet to give up the tutoring my government represents to me and my fellow citizens.

You shouldn't have to give up your government. I'd never suggest that, nor would I suggest soulsinging should give up his.

I have no right to tell you which government you wish to submit yourselves to.

soulsinging

farfromglorified wrote:

How? "Agree" implies consent, given by me. When have I consented? Where did I consent? Where is the contract?

the day you got your social security number and applied for a driver's license. you availed yourself of the protections and rights of the united states government and thus entered into a contract with them. they gave you benefits including social security, medicaid, public schooling, police protection, national defense, streamlined commerce procedures, use of their roads and national parks, and international support from the us government via their embassies in foreign lands. in exchange, you pay them taxes. regardless of whether or not you use all of those services, that is the contract and it's tough shit if you don't like it. you can leave.

farfromglorified wrote:

Hehe...your government is free to leave too. Why do either of us have to leave?

becos the collective governing body of the united states was here first and owns the piece of land you sit upon. you are only allowed to exercise dominion over it by that government's leave. you don't own it, you're borrowing it.

farfromglorified wrote:

Are you listening? I reject violent aggression. Why would I sign up with the "local militia"? What do they have to offer me?

they can help protect you from the big bad government that's stealing your toys and kicking sand in your eyes :(

soulsinging

Kann wrote:

Thanks for the answers, I think I understand better, but we have radically different views on governments. It's hard to grasp your points without knowing what your views are on rights and duty in a nation. We're both on one side of the atlantic so I don't mind agreeing to disagree with you, I'm not ready yet to give up the tutoring my government represents to me and my fellow citizens.

he doesn't have any. he has no reality based ideas of governance. only abstract intellectual masturbation about how he yearns to be free of the tyranny of taxes and running water.

farfromglorified

soulsinging wrote:

he doesn't have any. he has no reality based ideas of governance. only abstract intellectual masturbation about how he yearns to be free of the tyranny of taxes and running water.

Hehe....ironically, you stole the term "intellectual masturbation" from me many moons ago.

Anyway, I apologize for not having more "reality based ideas", such as the ones you seem to hold that say without taxes I wouldn't have running water, or that without taxes we'd all perish in some kind of unholy Armageddon.

soulsinging

farfromglorified wrote:

Hehe....ironically, you stole the term "intellectual masturbation" from me many moons ago.

Anyway, I apologize for not having more "reality based ideas", such as the ones you seem to hold that say without taxes I wouldn't have running water, or that without taxes we'd all perish in some kind of unholy Armageddon.

i did? ive been saying intellectual masturbation since high school, before i knew what the internet was. must be my telekinetic powers. shall i pat you on the back to stroke your ego then? anarchy is an ineffective form of social organization. just like communism. we've got a pretty happy medium here... your ideas are as ridiculous as stalin's were. humans have NEVER been "free" in the sense you use it. this is abstract philosophical, pseudo-religious psychobabble about the nature of humanity and has no basis in reality. the state you believe in does not exist and never has.