A theory on abortion...

saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
edited October 2008 in A Moving Train
For pro-choicers....

What if (yes it's a what if question, sorry) we could extract a fetus at any time during a preganacy? The most you'd have to wait is up 1-2 months (most women just find out they are preganant around that time) to get it extracted. So the procedure is most likely similar to an abortion. Once the baby is extracted, it is placed in incubation and put up for adoption when Doctors see fit. It actually makes sense for the gov't to back and consider funding this plan. Why? Well, these are future tax payers. Not only that, they are future entrants into our labor markets. We are in deep amount of debt and this could help. Lastly, perhaps there would be a way for the government to be compensated for the incubation period, so they wouldn't lose anything on their investment.


So the question is....


Would you support this, if it was feasible?

If not, why not?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • SpeakersSpeakers Posts: 252
    http://us.figu.org/portal/SocialIssues/OverpopulationBomb/tabid/105/Default.aspx

    We dont have the resources to support our current populations at the American standard of living.

    Its like giving food to hungry people in poor countries, it only keeps them alive long enough to have 5 babies who will grow up hungry who are kept alive to create 25 babies...

    It is a tough world but if you look at how species survive, it is not by overpopulation, that will destroy us eventually.
  • fugawzifugawzi Posts: 879
    saveuplife wrote:
    For pro-choicers....

    What if (yes it's a what if question, sorry) we could extract a fetus at any time during a preganacy? The most you'd have to wait is up 1-2 months (most women just find out they are preganant around that time) to get it extracted. Then place the baby up for adoption after an incubation period. It actually makes sense for the gov't to back this plan. Why? Well, these are future tax payers. Not only that, they are future entrants into our labor markets. We are in deep amount of debt and this could help. Lastly, perhaps there would be a way for the government to be compensated for the incubation period.


    So the question is....


    Would you support this, if it was feasible?

    If not, why not?

    So extract the baby prematurely, incubate it and eventually give it up for adoption so it can grow up to pay taxes and work it's ass off? Then in addition to paying taxes give the government more money somehow for the incubation period? I'd have to say that's a pretty bad idea. Sounds like it would be keeping it alive to be a glorified slave. That's just my opinion, let's see what the others have to say.
    West Palm 2000 I & II/West Palm '03/Tampa '03/Kissimmee '04/Vic Theater '07/West Palm '08/Tampa '08/NYC MSG I & II '08/Philly Spectrum III & IV '09/Cleveland '10/Bristow '10/PJ20 I & II 2011/Pensacola '12/Pittsburgh '13/Denver '14
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    saveuplife wrote:
    For pro-choicers....

    What if (yes it's a what if question, sorry) we could extract a fetus at any time during a preganacy? The most you'd have to wait is up 1-2 months (most women just find out they are preganant around that time) to get it extracted. Then place the baby up for adoption after an incubation period. It actually makes sense for the gov't to back this plan. Why? Well, these are future tax payers. Not only that, they are future entrants into our labor markets. We are in deep amount of debt and this could help. Lastly, perhaps there would be a way for the government to be compensated for the incubation period.


    So the question is....


    Would you support this, if it was feasible?

    If not, why not?

    I'll bite...

    Yes, I would support this as a 4th CHOICE.

    Regarding your assertion that would-be aborted fetuses could help the national debt - that's silly. You have no way of knowing this. Many would argue that they would be more likely to actually increase the national debt by requiring various forms of "welfare".

    And I don't know who you think would compensate the government for the incubation period. Are you planning to sell these babies or something?
  • SpeakersSpeakers Posts: 252
    fugawzi wrote:
    So extract the baby prematurely, incubate it and eventually give it up for adoption so it can grow up to pay taxes and work it's ass off? Then in addition to paying taxes give the government more money somehow for the incubation period? I'd have to say that's a pretty bad idea. Sounds like it would be keeping it alive to be a glorified slave. That's just my opinion, let's see what the others have to say.

    or use it for energy...see "The Matrix"
  • jimed14jimed14 Posts: 9,488
    saveuplife wrote:
    For pro-choicers....

    What if (yes it's a what if question, sorry) we could extract a fetus at any time during a preganacy? The most you'd have to wait is up 1-2 months (most women just find out they are preganant around that time) to get it extracted. So the procedure is most likely similar to an abortion. Once the baby is extracted, it is placed in incubation and put up for adoption when Doctors see fit. It actually makes sense for the gov't to back and consider funding this plan. Why? Well, these are future tax payers. Not only that, they are future entrants into our labor markets. We are in deep amount of debt and this could help. Lastly, perhaps there would be a way for the government to be compensated for the incubation period, so they wouldn't lose anything on their investment.


    So the question is....


    Would you support this, if it was feasible?

    If not, why not?


    are you saying this in conjunction with reversing Roe v Wade and/or making it illegal to have an abortion?

    I would support your new idea being an option for the mother ... but, I still contend it's their choice, and that right should be protected. But, if this was an option, it would be great.

    I don't think the religious folks would like fetuses being raised outside of the mother though ... do you?

    As for this ...

    "Well, these are future tax payers. Not only that, they are future entrants into our labor markets. We are in deep amount of debt and this could help."

    Sounds a bit crass, not really the way one should think about the potential of a human entering this world.
    "You're one of the few Red Sox fans I don't mind." - Newch91

    "I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
  • saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
    Speakers wrote:
    http://us.figu.org/portal/SocialIssues/OverpopulationBomb/tabid/105/Default.aspx

    We dont have the resources to support our current populations at the American standard of living.

    Its like giving food to hungry people in poor countries, it only keeps them alive long enough to have 5 babies who will grow up hungry who are kept alive to create 25 babies...

    It is a tough world but if you look at how species survive, it is not by overpopulation, that will destroy us eventually.


    First, Maltus was wrong. So, your theory is not correct.

    Second, we can't support Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security because we lack the tax base. Meaning, we don't have enough young to support the old.

    Luckily, we aren't as bad off as Europe, but we are close and getting worse. A number of countries over there are paying people to have children now. This is the same type of concept.
  • saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
    double post
  • jimed14jimed14 Posts: 9,488
    Speakers wrote:
    or use it for energy...see "The Matrix"

    have to admit, this was the first thing that entered my mind when reading the OP.
    "You're one of the few Red Sox fans I don't mind." - Newch91

    "I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
  • Jeremy1012Jeremy1012 Posts: 7,170
    This thread makes me feel ill.

    Breeding humans to pay off debts? What an astoundingly dystopian concept to be conceived by someone who supposedly respects the value of life.
    "I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
  • saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
    scb wrote:
    I'll bite...

    Yes, I would support this as a 4th CHOICE.

    Regarding your assertion that would-be aborted fetuses could help the national debt - that's silly. You have no way of knowing this. Many would argue that they would be more likely to actually increase the national debt by requiring various forms of "welfare".

    And I don't know who you think would compensate the government for the incubation period. Are you planning to sell these babies or something?


    No, it's not silly at all. Aggregate demand is a function of population. The largest the population the larger your demand. Real GDP (and our economy) increases with population. Your argument may be about per capita GDP, and it may be a good one. One really can't know. But, you should take into account that wealthier people tend to adopt. So, I don't think these kids would end up on welfare. But, that's an opinion.

    Well, this is just a theory... so no, I'm not selling the babies. And I'll be the first to say... selling babies sounds completely awful. However, I think plenty of parents who can't have kids (which is becoming more of a problem as people try at later stages in life) would be willing to pay for a child. So it's a win for the gov't a win for the couple and a win for the kid. They pay agencies already.... why not the gov't?
  • digsterdigster Posts: 1,293
    Why is this not in the other thread about abortion that is, you know, at the top of the page?

    Saveuplife, I'd like to think that as a fellow poster you'd know that I value and respect your opinions, and you make strong arguments, but your points are not more or less important than anyone else's in this thread or on this board.
  • SpeakersSpeakers Posts: 252
    saveuplife wrote:
    First, Maltus was wrong. So, your theory is not correct.

    Second, we can't support Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security because we lack the tax base. Meaning, we don't have enough young to support the old.

    Luckily, we aren't as bad off as Europe, but we are close and getting worse. A number of countries over there are paying people to have children now. This is the same type of concept.

    Again, you are looking too short term. If we are talking long-term sustainability then we have to reduce our population. Yes, there will be a period of great suffering, but that would be the price to pay to save civilization until we can get back on a more sustainble path. Otherwise our path is towards exponential population growth, use of resources, etc. That does not have a happy ending.
  • saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
    jimed14 wrote:
    are you saying this in conjunction with reversing Roe v Wade and/or making it illegal to have an abortion?

    I would support your new idea being an option for the mother ... but, I still contend it's their choice, and that right should be protected. But, if this was an option, it would be great.

    I don't think the religious folks would like fetuses being raised outside of the mother though ... do you?

    As for this ...

    "Well, these are future tax payers. Not only that, they are future entrants into our labor markets. We are in deep amount of debt and this could help."

    Sounds a bit crass, not really the way one should think about the potential of a human entering this world.


    Yes. I'm saying reverse R v W, once this technology is feasible. This way, teh woman has the ability to rid herself of the "cells", the cells, fetus or baby (whatever you prefer) has the chance to "live", the gov't has the chance to make money and parents who can't have kids have the chance to "adopt" a young child at a lower price.

    It is crass. I'll admit it but I think that's because of the "selling" aspect. I truly dispise the notion of abortion, I think most do too, but they think it's necessary. I don't understand why something like this can't help everyone come to some form of middle ground.
  • saveuplife wrote:
    For pro-choicers....

    What if (yes it's a what if question, sorry) we could extract a fetus at any time during a preganacy? The most you'd have to wait is up 1-2 months (most women just find out they are preganant around that time) to get it extracted. So the procedure is most likely similar to an abortion. Once the baby is extracted, it is placed in incubation and put up for adoption when Doctors see fit. It actually makes sense for the gov't to back and consider funding this plan. Why? Well, these are future tax payers. Not only that, they are future entrants into our labor markets. We are in deep amount of debt and this could help. Lastly, perhaps there would be a way for the government to be compensated for the incubation period, so they wouldn't lose anything on their investment.


    So the question is....


    Would you support this, if it was feasible?

    If not, why not?
    no- do you have any idea how many unwated babies already are out there in foster care.
  • Who is going to pay for them while they are pending adoption?

    oh jeez....... lol this idea is insane!
  • Jeremy1012 wrote:
    This thread makes me feel ill.

    Breeding humans to pay off debts? What an astoundingly dystopian concept to be conceived by someone who supposedly respects the value of life.

    I couldn't agree more ...

    What a horrible thread saveuplife! What are you thinking?!?
    "i'm a dedicated insomniac" ~ ev nyc beacon 6/22
  • saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
    Speakers wrote:
    Again, you are looking too short term. If we are talking long-term sustainability then we have to reduce our population. Yes, there will be a period of great suffering, but that would be the price to pay to save civilization until we can get back on a more sustainble path. Otherwise our path is towards exponential population growth, use of resources, etc. That does not have a happy ending.


    Once again. Malthus was wrong. Look him up. Look what he said. It's identical to what you are saying. It WAS why economics got the title the Dismal Science. Anyway, he's been proven wrong empirically time and time again. His theory, although seminal, is now not considered relevant at all.
  • maybe we can train them to pull carriages and we can get rid of cars and trucks- decrease our oil need---- others we can have run in big wheels and they can make electricity-
  • digsterdigster Posts: 1,293
    Yeah, this is all based on the assumption that foster care in the United States is working well right now.

    And that's an even bigger leap than the science that would be involved to make this thread a reality. Of course, we could improve the foster care system but that might mean more funding. And that might mean higher taxes.

    And then we reach an impasse.
  • saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
    jenmarie wrote:
    Who is going to pay for them while they are pending adoption?

    oh jeez....... lol this idea is insane!


    The gov't and they will recoup a profit afterwards that can be used as the constituency feels fit.
  • Brad and Angelina can adopt the really cute ones- they shouldn't have to work.
  • saveuplife wrote:
    The gov't and they will recoup a profit afterwards that can be used as the constituency feels fit.

    maybe i could get a few and train them to use the computer so that the next time PJ tickets go on sale via the 10 club I can have a few working to get MSG seats for me-
  • digsterdigster Posts: 1,293
    So, the compassion for the unborn seems to extend to the time when they are actually BORN. Got it.
  • saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
    jenmarie wrote:
    maybe i could get a few and train them to use the computer so that the next time PJ tickets go on sale via the 10 club I can have a few working to get MSG seats for me-


    I get it. You don't like the idea. That's fine. Atleast I'm trying.
  • saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
    digster wrote:
    So, the compassion for the unborn seems to extend to the time when they are actually BORN. Got it.


    With this idea, how so?

    You use an incubation period, in a hospital, once they are old enough they will be available to be adopted. How's that losing compassion? I honestly don't understand your point at all.
  • saveuplife wrote:
    I get it. You don't like the idea. That's fine. Atleast I'm trying.

    keep spinning those wheels!
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    saveuplife wrote:
    Yes. I'm saying reverse R v W, once this technology is feasible. This way, teh woman has the ability to rid herself of the "cells", the cells, fetus or baby (whatever you prefer) has the chance to "live", the gov't has the chance to make money and parents who can't have kids have the chance to "adopt" a young child at a lower price.

    It is crass. I'll admit it but I think that's because of the "selling" aspect. I truly dispise the notion of abortion, I think most do too, but they think it's necessary. I don't understand why something like this can't help everyone come to some form of middle ground.

    I only like this idea if:

    1. There is an adoptive family found for the baby before it is removed from the mother.

    2. We ask the baby and it says it wants the "chance to live".
  • saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
    jenmarie wrote:
    keep spinning those wheels!


    You too.
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    jenmarie wrote:
    no- do you have any idea how many unwated babies already are out there in foster care.

    I already told him. 1/2 a million in the U.S., according to the adoption counseling class I took yesterday.
  • digster wrote:
    So, the compassion for the unborn seems to extend to the time when they are actually BORN. Got it.

    So much compassion in MORE parentless babies
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