Anyone here actually witness 9/11 / Pentagon attacks, or know someone who did?

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I know what your example said. I was making my own example.

I don't think everyone who believes the official story is gullible. Some just came to differnet conclusions than others. That's my point...so many here seem to act as thought the people who came to a different conclusion than themselves are nutjobs. It's quite closeminded to think everyone will see this the same way. There is reason to doubt and question this. It's not irrational or foolish.

Just like your views on imprisonment and criminal justice. A lot of people could say that your views would be crazy and easily dismiss them. I think they are unique and only wonder how should ideas would actually play out in the real world. I don't dismiss your views as nutty. I give them thought and try to understand your point of view. I'm guess i'm just hoping for more intelligent discourse here than I should expect. It is just very frustrating to me, I guess.

All fair statements. The bottom line on this issue is that one side is right or one side is wrong or both sides are wrong. And that creates a lot of tension for people who become married to their positions. There's no reason to be frustrated though -- be comfortable in what you believe and speak your mind. What more could you reasonably want?

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

All fair statements. The bottom line on this issue is that one side is right or one side is wrong or both sides are wrong. And that creates a lot of tension for people who become married to their positions. There's no reason to be frustrated though -- be comfortable in what you believe and speak your mind. What more could you reasonably want?

To be able to discuss things without all the hostility and dismissivenes. Maybe I aim too high.

OneLove

I'm happy to see that this thread, for the most part, has not been reduced to insults and a pissing contest. It seems there are a few here on the board who really do enjoy a reasoned debate.

Anyway, I'm off to the beach for the weekend, but I'll be checking this thread when I get back on Sunday. You all have a good one

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

To be able to discuss things without all the hostility and dismissivenes. Maybe I aim too high.

You don't aim too high. You just focus too much on the perception of others. Hostility and dismissiveness are only worth the reaction they get out of you. Without your sanction, hostility and dismissiveness have absolutely no power.

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

You don't aim too high. You just focus too much on the perception of others. Hostility and dismissiveness are only worth the reaction they get out of you. Without your sanction, hostility and dismissiveness have absolutely no power.

But how can you discuss things with these kind of attitudes? And many people will follow whatever another says instead of reading up on it. 'Oh they say its crazy so it must be.' That is frustrating more so than other perception of me.

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

But how can you discuss things with these kind of attitudes?

By not giving sanction to them. If you're there to discuss, why bother with someone who is not? Why play by their terms? Look, I've been called a lot of names on this board ranging from "heartless CEO" to "filthly liberal". My response is often to discuss those names. Challenge the premises beneath them. Disprove their claims, and do it for fun.

Or if that doesn't interest you or isn't worth your time, ignore them. What do you hope to accomplish with someone who already annouces with their hostility that they don't wish to consider your claims? If someone defends their view strongly, do the same with yours. If someone simply has no view other than "I don't like you or what you stand for" without knowing you or without understanding what you stand for, do you really expect that person to have an interest in the actual meaning of those things?

In short, play by your rules and your terms. There are many people here and elsewhere who you'll find common ground with (at least in terms of the methods). Why pay heed to those who don't?

And many people will follow whatever another says instead of reading up on it. 'Oh they say its crazy so it must be.' That is frustrating more so than other perception of me.

Yeah, I hear you. Conformity is a sign on fear and fear is typically a sign of misunderstanding. The conformist is rarely attached to his target. They're easily persuaded, if you wish. But not much of a long-term ally

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

By not giving sanction to them. If you're there to discuss, why bother with someone who is not? Why play by their terms? Look, I've been called a lot of names on this board ranging from "heartless CEO" to "filthly liberal". My response is often to discuss those names. Challenge the premises beneath them. Disprove their claims, and do it for fun.

Or if that doesn't interest you or isn't worth your time, ignore them. What do you hope to accomplish with someone who already annouces with their hostility that they don't wish to consider your claims? If someone defends their view strongly, do the same with yours. If someone simply has no view other than "I don't like you or what you stand for" without knowing you or without understanding what you stand for, do you really expect that person to have an interest in the actual meaning of those things?

In short, play by your rules and your terms. There are many people here and elsewhere who you'll find common ground with (at least in terms of the methods). Why pay heed to those who don't?



Yeah, I hear you. Conformity is a sign on fear and fear is typically a sign of misunderstanding. The conformist is rarely attached to his target. They're easily persuaded, if you wish. But not much of a long-term ally

But this nation is filled with comformists who vote and we have to live by their rules, such as wiretapping. Frustration!! So I try to do what I can to to offset that.

floyd1975

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

But this nation is filled with comformists who vote and we have to live by their rules, such as wiretapping. Frustration!! So I try to do what I can to to offset that.

Just take comfort in the fact that I'm here to cancel your actions out.

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

But this nation is filled with comformists who vote and we have to live by their rules, such as wiretapping. Frustration!! So I try to do what I can to to offset that.

Yep. Come on over to the side that rejects the right of those conformists to control you

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

Yep. Come on over to the side that rejects the right of those conformists to control you

What side is that? And what side is there that wants to encourage the production of noncomformists?

Abookamongstthemany

zstillings wrote:

Just take comfort in the fact that I'm here to cancel your actions out.

Nah, I'll get more attention

floyd1975

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Nah, I'll get more attention

Probably so. You're much better looking.

Abookamongstthemany

zstillings wrote:

Probably so. You're much better looking.

Well, I didn't mean because of that but thank you anyways.

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

What side is that?

The side that believes the individual is paramount, of course. That's the side of freedom.

And what side is there that wants to encourage the production of noncomformists?

Whatever side that does not wish to override the will of the individual with the will of society, of course. That's the side of fascism.

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

The side that believes the individual is paramount, of course. That's the side of freedom.



Whatever side wishes to override the will of the individual with the will of society, of course. That's the side of fascism.

Isn't there some middle ground? What about the less fortunate? You have a lot of trust in man. But that is another thread.

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Isn't there some middle ground?

Just as there is no middle ground between life and death there is no middle ground between freedom and fascism. You have different types of lives and you may have different types of death, but you cannot be half alive and half dead. Similarly, you cannot stand for the individual and against him at the same time. If you think you can, check your premises.

What about the less fortunate?

What about them? They're individuals too.

You have a lot of trust in man. But that is another thread.

I trust many men. I distrust others.

evenkat

I know three people from my work who were on Church Street in NYC on business. One of them got separated from the other two. They all said they saw the second plane hit the tower. They witnessed the collapse of the towers and were covered in that white dust. Somehow all three of them met up on the train to go home after several hours of walking to the train station I believe in NJ.

I've seen all the videos and believe what I saw on live TV that day. I watched that second plane hit the tower. Any video can be edited to have things appear or disappear and it doesn't take a genius to do so.