Barak Obama-just another politician.

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Comments

  • Trau
    Trau Posts: 188
    El_Kabong wrote:
    and what gives us the right to decide that israel and pakistan can have them? why is this 'you build more, we bomb you more' line not used on them?






    and we told them they don't need to listen to the iaea and can build more...more...but what happened to 'if you build more, we bomb you more'???





    yes, the US and israel have killed far more civillians than iran ever has and we're allowed to have them

    I don't know that Israel has killed more civilians than Iran, but of course the US has killed more civilians than Iran. It has been involved in far more conflicts.

    Again, I'm shocked that you're unable to understand the difference between the US and Israel having nuclear weapons and Iran having nuclear weapons. I'm just not going to argue with you about why such comparisons are absurd. You, as a human being capable of reason, should already understand this on your own.

    All that you're using as criteria here is the number of civilians each country has killed, but you're not in anyway considering why or how those people were killed, or when.
    In the shadow of the light from a black sun
    Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
    Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
    I'm freezing

    Are you afraid, afraid to die
    Don't be afraid, afraid to try
  • mattosborne
    mattosborne Posts: 339
    I guess you guys have never seen a map of the middle east. Look at one then tell me Israel doesn't NEED weapons. Iran's "president" said he'd like to wipe Isreal off the face of the earth, hello...how clear does it have to be for you people?
    The Official Matt Cameron appreciation signature!
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    mattosborne wrote:
    I guess you guys have never seen a map of the middle east. Look at one then tell me Israel doesn't NEED weapons. Iran's "president" said he'd like to wipe Isreal off the face of the earth, hello...how clear does it have to be for you people?

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=235910

    All the weapons in the world won't change things and neither will missle strikes. All that creates is a cycle of violence and aggression....the same old shit that's been going for years and hasn't solved anything. I'd prefer a new more civilized approach, thank you.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Trau
    Trau Posts: 188
    We ALL prefer a civilized approach. But no matter how many of us are willing to negotiate peacefully, no matter how many of you unsophisticated, limp-wristed hippies believe that war is not the answer, there will always be someone willing to shove a missile into your Koombaya-singing mouth.

    Violence is sometimes necessary, my friend.
    In the shadow of the light from a black sun
    Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
    Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
    I'm freezing

    Are you afraid, afraid to die
    Don't be afraid, afraid to try
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    SweetHarmonics wrote:
    yet another whine-fest to hammer home the stereotype, good work

    these microscopes are gonna be worn out soon

    Much better to whine about whining...:rolleyes:

    You guys are going to have to come to terms with the fact sone of us don't think Obama is this great answer like you do and we will be critical when we feel the need to. You are free to support whomever you please. But don't get your panites in a bunch when some don't see it your way. It comes off like sour grapes.

    About the microscope...once again, you are free to feel however you wish about the issues we have brought up. If you want to debate them, that's great...that's what this place is for. But don't expect me to overlook the flaws you choose to glaze over or accept.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Trau wrote:
    We ALL prefer a civilized approach. But no matter how many of us are willing to negotiate peacefully, no matter how many of you unsophisticated, limp-wristed hippies believe that war is not the answer, there will always be someone willing to shove a missile into your Koombaya-singing mouth.

    :rolleyes:

    I won't waste my time here on immature posts like these.
    Trau wrote:
    Violence is sometimes necessary, my friend.

    That would be your opinion. I view it ONLY as a last resort.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Trau
    Trau Posts: 188
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    :rolleyes:

    I won't waste my time here on immature posts like these.

    Do you deny that sometimes people aren't willing to be peaceful, even if you are?


    That would be your opinion. I view it ONLY as a last resort.

    Then it seems to also be your opinion. Most of us see violence as a last resort, but not something beyond consideration.
    In the shadow of the light from a black sun
    Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
    Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
    I'm freezing

    Are you afraid, afraid to die
    Don't be afraid, afraid to try
  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    Trau wrote:
    Do you deny that sometimes people aren't willing to be peaceful, even if you are?

    right, but it seems the US and Israel are hte ones initiating these conflicts. Israel especially...they send tanks into refugeee camps every other month it seems, but you never hear about that on the news. the second a suicide bomber retaliates its all over the headlines. I can get the media bias statistics if you find that hard to believe...
    Then it seems to also be your opinion. Most of us see violence as a last resort, but not something beyond consideration.
    I wish the US gov't thought so. But why would they use force as a last resort when they have a monopoly on force, and the most advanced military machine in the world? Its their first choice often, as it was with the most recent example in Iraq.
  • El_Kabong
    El_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    Commy wrote:
    I wish the US gov't thought so. But why would they use force as a last resort when they have a monopoly on force, and the most advanced military machine in the world? Its their first choice often, as it was with the most recent example in Iraq.


    exactly, how can you say premption is a last resort??? can anyone honestly say we invaded iraq as a last resort?
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • Abuskedti
    Abuskedti Posts: 1,917
    Commy wrote:
    That's very true, nobody is entitled to honest objectives facts, least all of the president, seriously.

    Its funny, not really, the media in the United States. The more important the recipient of the information the more controlled it is. I can't imagine what the president hears from his sources. We can be sure its the most indoctrinating, propaganized information there is. Same with Senators and Congressmen...their opinions are more important to control than the general population.

    I can't agree that the president does not have truth available to him. He can go to the source - challange contradictions and fire liars. The truth is available if he wants it.

    The real problem in the white house is that if the president chooses - he can use mis information too - once in that position - the president is in control of those things. Bush has chosen to disregard truth and accountability.. though there is plenty of accountability for those who injure the highest national priorities - which for W are to keep he and his party looking good.

    very sad state of affairs...
  • Trau
    Trau Posts: 188
    Commy wrote:
    right, but it seems the US and Israel are hte ones initiating these conflicts. Israel especially...they send tanks into refugeee camps every other month it seems, but you never hear about that on the news. the second a suicide bomber retaliates its all over the headlines. I can get the media bias statistics if you find that hard to believe...

    I see it in the media all the time, but that's not the point. Israel didn't initiate the continuous conflict that is going on, they have only been defending themselves. You may argue that they have been heavy handed, but it's bullshit to say they started it. They are attacked by people who hide among civilians. While unfortunate, it is not surprising that those civilians die while the Israelis are looking for the real killers.
    But why would they use force as a last resort when they have a monopoly on force, and the most advanced military machine in the world?

    So it doesn't cost anything to exert that force?
    Its their first choice often, as it was with the most recent example in Iraq.

    You must be kidding.
    In the shadow of the light from a black sun
    Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
    Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
    I'm freezing

    Are you afraid, afraid to die
    Don't be afraid, afraid to try
  • El_Kabong
    El_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    Trau wrote:
    I see it in the media all the time, but that's not the point. Israel didn't initiate the continuous conflict that is going on, they have only been defending themselves. You may argue that they have been heavy handed, but it's bullshit to say they started it. They are attacked by people who hide among civilians. While unfortunate, it is not surprising that those civilians die while the Israelis are looking for the real killers.


    didn't this current intifada start when ariel sharon marched into one of the holiest sites in islam w/ over 1,000 armed men??

    let's say the cops chase a serial child molestor/killer into a crowded mall...would you support the cops opening fire and killing a bunch of civillians just to get him? cos that's basically what israel does, they fire missiles into apartment complexes to kill 1 person, set off car bombs outside mosques when they let out just to kill 1 guy, attack refugee camps just to get 1 guy...
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • drivingrl
    drivingrl Posts: 1,448
    Trau wrote:
    And that isn't a major risk if Iran develops nuclear weapons?
    El_Kabong wrote:
    b/c innocent ppl will still die. are we here to be the world's bully? telling everyone what they can and can not do? why do we get to waive these rules against ourselves and friends?

    Objection, your honor:

    This entire argument is moot, in my opinion. I'm as disgusted as anyone by the fact that soldiers and innocent civilians are dying on a daily basis, but like it or not, what we're doing in these countries is ultimately protecting our lifestyle. We have to seriously consider how different our lives would be if we had chosen to be militarily submissive to other nations in the past.

    This internet thing you're enjoying? This electricity and clean drinking water you've grown accustomed to? This band you love to see tour every few years? That's why we go to war, to protect those things and to live the good life. Needless to say our economy and way of life doesn't run on happy thoughts and pixie dust; it comes at a price.

    Was the preemptive strike in Iraq a bad move? In my opinion, yes, because the important thing the Bush administration failed to take into account was the impact this war would have on our image in the International Community.

    Enjoy your internet and clean water while you can. China will be the superpower eventually and we won't have to worry about being the world 'bully'.
    drivingrl: "Will I ever get to meet Gwen Stefani?"
    kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.

    Next!"
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    drivingrl wrote:
    Objection, your honor:

    This entire argument is moot, in my opinion. I'm as disgusted as anyone by the fact that soldiers and innocent civilians are dying on a daily basis, but like it or not, what we're doing in these countries is ultimately protecting our lifestyle. We have to seriously consider how different our lives would be if we had chosen to be militarily submissive to other nations in the past.

    This internet thing you're enjoying? This electricity and clean drinking water you've grown accustomed to? This band you love to see tour every few years? That's why we go to war, to protect those things and to live the good life. Needless to say our economy and way of life doesn't run on happy thoughts and pixie dust; it comes at a price.

    Was the preemptive strike in Iraq a bad move? In my opinion, yes, because the important thing the Bush administration failed to take into account was the impact this war would have on our image in the International Community.

    Enjoy your internet and clean water while you can. China will be the superpower eventually and we won't have to worry about being the world 'bully'.

    I don't think we have to go to war to have the internet, clean water or electricity. There's plenty of non warring countries that have all of these.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • drivingrl
    drivingrl Posts: 1,448
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I don't think we have to go to war to have the internet, clean water or electricity. There's plenty of non warring countries that have all of these.

    No, but it's clear that our economic interests are protected by our military actions.
    drivingrl: "Will I ever get to meet Gwen Stefani?"
    kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.

    Next!"
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    drivingrl wrote:
    No, but it's clear that our economic interests are protected by our military actions.

    I believe in a better way and it is possible.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • drivingrl
    drivingrl Posts: 1,448
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I believe in a better way and it is possible.

    I believe in one, too. But the unfortunate fact remains that we're just human. No matter how many of us convene and discuss and plan, there will always be another group of people to skew and spin it another way. (The international media, for example, says a lot of negative things about the United States despite the fact that we do a lot of good, too.)
    drivingrl: "Will I ever get to meet Gwen Stefani?"
    kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.

    Next!"
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    drivingrl wrote:
    I believe in one, too. But the unfortunate fact remains that we're just human. No matter how many of us convene and discuss and plan, there will always be another group of people to skew and spin it another way. (The international media, for example, says a lot of negative things about the United States despite the fact that we do a lot of good, too.)

    But here with our media we hardly hear any of the bad stuff we do. It all gets swept under the carpet. I love my country but our govt has done some horrendous things throughout the world...read up on Central and South America for starters. I know we are a nation filled with great people. That's why I find it unacceptable to let the govt do this shit in our name. International media outlets aren't going to cover up such crimes. It would serve us well to not be so arrogant and look into these claims before simply writing them off. Once we have a more balanced view then maybe we'd get mad enough and say 'Enough is enough! We're not a country who runs on secret wars and lies...we're above that! We have dignity and we can do much better than this!!'
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • drivingrl
    drivingrl Posts: 1,448
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    But here with our media we hardly hear any of the bad stuff we do. It all gets swept under the carpet. I love my country but our govt has done some horrendous things throughout the world...read up on Central and South America for starters. I know we are a nation filled with great people. That's why I find it unacceptable to let the govt do this shit in our name. International media outlets aren't going to cover up such crimes. It would serve us well to not be so arrogant and look into these claims before simply writing them off. Once we have a more balanced view then maybe we'd get mad enough and say 'Enough is enough! We're not a country who runs on secret wars and lies...we're above that! We have dignity and we can do much better than this!!'

    I appreciate that you, too, see there's something not right about our country's arrogance in its actions. But I think that you know as well as I do that the problem with this country stems much deeper than biased news sources or presidential candidates who make false promises to raise money.
    drivingrl: "Will I ever get to meet Gwen Stefani?"
    kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.

    Next!"
  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    drivingrl wrote:
    I appreciate that you, too, see there's something not right about our country's arrogance in its actions. But I think that you know as well as I do that the problem with this country stems much deeper than biased news sources or presidential candidates who make false promises to raise money.

    I don't think its a good idea to overlook the importance of the media, especially in the United States. In China they could care less what their people are thinking, if the don't like someone they can put em jail or whatever, get rid of them. They don't really have that option, for the most part, in the United States. So they instead must focus on thought control...and there's an entire industry devoted to that one concept. The United States public may be one of the most indoctrinated in the entire planet. Which allows the gov't to get away with all kinds of serious crimes, crimes affecting billions of people.

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