the original post was a ridiculous propaganda piece. the foxnews of the left. it says pharma companies are so evil and business smart, they invented a horrible drug like heroin, then promptly tried to get it outlawed so as to eliminate competition (which makes no sense becos until it was outlawed there was no competition!). the article is so distorted and conclusory that you'd be a fool to take it seriously. he started writing this with the agenda that pharmas are evil (so buy my books and videos instead) and then dug up a very small and select handful of facts, distorted a few others, and strung them together in a nonsensical and contradictory manner to make a nice sounding article that digs at his competitors and is a pretty effective sales pitch... if you're one of the people who thinks michael moore and loose change are objective information sources.
It's a simple article giving some simple historical facts. Jesus Christ.
It's a simple article giving some simple historical facts. Jesus Christ.
but ffg has pointed out some of those facts are flat out wrong or at best misrepresented or circumstantial. and they are interspersed with ridiculous conclusory allegations like the pharmas being behind the narcotics bans to eliminate competition. all in all, this is a pretty poorly written and inaccurate "article" that serves little informative purpose. it's just the kind of dirty campaigning you all love to hate... he's trying to paint them as the hand of darth vader to move more of HIS product. the pharmaceutical companies are dirty enough, you don't need a joke of an article like this of dubious credibility to expose their disgusting policies.
but ffg has pointed out some of those facts are flat out wrong or at best misrepresented or circumstantial. and they are interspersed with ridiculous conclusory allegations like the pharmas being behind the narcotics bans to eliminate competition. all in all, this is a pretty poorly written and inaccurate "article" that serves little informative purpose. it's just the kind of dirty campaigning you all love to hate... he's trying to paint them as the hand of darth vader to move more of HIS product. the pharmaceutical companies are dirty enough, you don't need a joke of an article like this of dubious credibility to expose their disgusting policies.
Tradition is the difference, as far as I understand it. Morphine was a more acceptable and known quantity at the time. Heroin was grouped in with cocaine and other substances that were believed to have little medical value and posed more of a "danger" to society.
You are correct. It is all very interesting. Morphine is actually more dangerous than heroin, not that heroin by any means is a 'safe' drug.
I easily cringe at the use of cocaine in Coca-cola, the use of heroin in psychological "treatments"....just examples of people using substances and drugs without understanding the consequences.
nerd
Although I've never heard of heroin used for 'psychological treatments', the fact that cocaine was used in coca-cola is very interesting, indeed. Didn't Freud think cocaine was a 'treatment' for morphine addiction?
Just an aside, while we are talking about drugs/toxicity.......did you know that water can be deadly, that you can 'overdose' on water. Too much water in a short period of time causes hyponatremia which can lead to death. Just an interesting little fact..........
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
i've no doubt about that. but i dont think this article really gives the right reasons. it's confused and contradictory and, like i said, just propaganda to sell this guy's healthy living system. there's no doubt they're one of the more brutal industries out there, if not the most brutal (minus maybe the health insurance industry), but this article doesn't really say why. just has some nonsensical drug conspiracy bunk. they do very real and shady things. but this article only talks about the cheapest, most tenuous "future tom cruise movie" reasons for it.
Look, have pharmaceutical companies done unethical things in their history? Very much so, yes. Have they done illegal things in their history? Very much so, yes. Have they also saved a lot of lives and helped a lot of people that wouldn't have been helped otherwise? Very much so, yes.
This author is grouping a bunch of companies, current and historic, together and pretending they're all the same evil. He grabs onto a handful of facts and then extrapolates them into all sorts of ridiculous conclusions in the guise of fact. Soulsinging is right -- it's a total propaganda piece that serves to push this guy's own approach and products.
All that said, I'm actually more in agreement with this dope than his target. I tend to agree that pharmaceutical products are too often abused, poorly understood, and carelessly prescribed. We have a drug-addicted culture in a lot of ways, and it masks better alternatives. But to lampoon an industry as causing that addiction while their products are the most heavily regulated in the world is pretty silly. The primary drivers of drug use (legal or otherwise) are consumers, not pharmaceutical companies.
You are correct. It is all very interesting. Morphine is actually more dangerous than heroin, not that heroin by any means is a 'safe' drug.
nerd
Although I've never heard of heroin used for 'psychological treatments', the fact that cocaine was used in coca-cola is very interesting, indeed. Didn't Freud think cocaine was a 'treatment' for morphine addiction?
Just an aside, while we are talking about drugs/toxicity.......did you know that water can be deadly, that you can 'overdose' on water. Too much water in a short period of time causes hyponatremia which can lead to death. Just an interesting little fact..........
I think heroin was used as a "treatment" for morphine addiction, but I suppose that means cocaine would have been a likely candidate as well.
Definitely on the water thing! I can't think of a single substance you can't "overdose" on. Oxygen too.
I think you missed the point of Baraka's post. What you are basically saying it is alright for government regulation (hell just froze over) of illicit drugs, as long as doctors and pharmacueticals are running the show.
Actually, I was taking a stab at our government's silly 'war on drugs'. I work in the medical field and I can tell you a lot of the docs & pharmacists think what is deemed 'illegal' & what isn't is ridiculous.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
The primary drivers of drug use (legal or otherwise) are consumers, not pharmaceutical companies.
No, it's the illusion of cure. Pharm's spend more on marketing and sales than they do research and development. Most of those ridiculous drugs we see advertised on television today are nothing more than slightly altered drugs that have been around for years and years.
Actually, I was taking a stab at our government's silly 'war on drugs'. I work in the medical field and I can tell you a lot of the docs & pharmacists think what is deemed 'illegal' & what isn't is ridiculous.
this doesn't surprise me at all really. ive suspected as much for years. but i dont think the pharmies are the reason for it. im sure if they were allowed to sell heroin they'd be doing it in a heartbeat. it's become a moral issue somewhere along the line, rather than a medical or liberty issue.
Actually, I was taking a stab at our government's silly 'war on drugs'. I work in the medical field and I can tell you a lot of the docs & pharmacists think what is deemed 'illegal' & what isn't is ridiculous.
Well, that kind of ties into what I was saying.
If you know someone who was popped for selling a few ounces of weed and is now serving 10 years someplace, the war on drugs doesn't seem so silly. It's a fucking tragedy for a lot of families.
No, it's the illusion of cure. Pharm's spend more on marketing and sales than they do research and development.
Where do you think that got that money to spend?
Most of those ridiculous drugs we see advertised on television today are nothing more than slightly altered drugs that have been around for years and years.
So? Do you get mad when you see ads for lightbulbs too?
So? Do you get mad when you see ads for lightbulbs too?
Only when they're lying.
Edit: I honestly don't recall seeing any light bulb commercials. And for you to put human health on a par with light bulbs just goes to show, again, the primitivism of your thinking.
If Pfizer wants to make and sell heroin, what do I care? If you want to make Meth in your basement and kill yourself with it, I think that's your right.
I can't say I agree with that. People who do those drugs DO destroy their lives... good for them, it's their own fault. But those same types of people have no money (because they spend it on drugs) and end up stealing from stores, killing people for a few bucks on the street etc. among probably many other bad things that are derived from drug abuse. It will all just bring society as a whole down a little further. In my opinion.
The Sentence Below Is True
The Sentence Above Is False
Hehe...nice. The correct answer would probably be "from consumers", but you definitely get points for entertainment value here.
Only when they're lying.
Edit: I honestly don't recall seeing any light bulb commercials. And for you to put human health on a par with light bulbs just goes to show, again, the primitivism of your thinking.
You don't see a link between health and lightbulbs? You want to have surgery over open flame?
I can't say I agree with that. People who do those drugs DO destroy their lives... good for them, it's their own fault. But those same types of people have no money (because they spend it on drugs) and end up stealing from stores, killing people for a few bucks on the street etc. among probably many other bad things that are derived from drug abuse. It will all just bring society as a whole down a little further. In my opinion.
So in other words I should pay massive premiums on drugs and high taxes for enforcement to prevent people from stealing my money? Sounds like a crappy deal you're offering.
So in other words I should pay massive premiums on drugs and high taxes for enforcement to prevent people from stealing my money? Sounds like a crappy deal you're offering.
I think your alternative is to have everything legal, have about 200 million addicts in this country alone wherein most people will stop going to work, start having weeklong drug parties, lay around, steal/kill for more money to get these "legal" drugs because they aren't working, and end up dieing....
good times.
I agree that some drugs should be legalized, and premiums are high etc. but going to an EXTREME like you are suggesting is ridiculous.
Someones "rights" only go to the point where they infringe on someone elses rights...
The Sentence Below Is True
The Sentence Above Is False
I asked a valid question from your post. You say that you cannot equate lightbulbs and human health. Yet I'd argue that lightbulbs have done more for human health than any medicine ever invented.
I can't say I agree with that. People who do those drugs DO destroy their lives... good for them, it's their own fault. But those same types of people have no money (because they spend it on drugs) and end up stealing from stores, killing people for a few bucks on the street etc. among probably many other bad things that are derived from drug abuse. It will all just bring society as a whole down a little further. In my opinion.
that myth isn't true. i know crackheads. most of them are too fucked up to be killing people. the people doing the killing are the drug dealers and it's over sales turf. legalize the drug trade and you take them out of the equation. you also stabilize the source of the drugs, which means fewer overdoses, and less desperate junkies becos they're not at the mercy of an arbitrary dealer.
I think your alternative is to have everything legal, have about 200 million addicts in this country alone wherein most people will stop going to work, start having weeklong drug parties, lay around, steal/kill for more money to get these "legal" drugs because they aren't working, and end up dieing....
200 million addicts??? If heroin became legal today, would you be a heroin adict tomorrow?
Furthermore, why do you think so mean people would be stealing or killing? I mean, people don't kill or steal for cigarettes or prozac on any massive scale.
good times.
I agree that some drugs should be legalized, and premiums are high etc. but going to an EXTREME like you are suggesting is ridiculous.
Why is it ridiculous??? The only ridiculous thing I see here is the contention that legalized drugs would create 200 million addicts and mass deaths and the complete loss of property rights.
I think your alternative is to have everything legal, have about 200 million addicts in this country alone wherein most people will stop going to work, start having weeklong drug parties, lay around, steal/kill for more money to get these "legal" drugs because they aren't working, and end up dieing....
good times.
I agree that some drugs should be legalized, and premiums are high etc. but going to an EXTREME like you are suggesting is ridiculous.
Someones "rights" only go to the point where they infringe on someone elses rights...
this would never happen. and the people who'd stop going to work aren't exactly going now anyway. and they're mostly working jobs that can easily be filled by someone else if they decide they want to stay home and shoot up until they die.
Someones "rights" only go to the point where they infringe on someone elses rights...
I'm not suggesting anyone has the right to kill or to steal.
EDIT: You might want to consider your own logic here. In an attempt to defend yourself from murder and theft, you've gone too far in suggesting that you have the right to eliminate behaviors that only contribute to murder or theft. So you're the one suggesting that you have rights that extend into infringement.
and don't compare hard drugs like heroin etc. to nicotine. If you even think they are in the same league as drugs then you've never been a nurse or doctor in a hospital that can see how powerful some drugs can be.
however, think about it... teens experiment. So if they have access to ANY drug they want there is a GREAT chance TONS of teens will try these, be fucked up, continue to be fucked up into adulthood and in a few generations have as many as 200 million people addicted to all kinds of drugs. So I think making statements like "people who use drugs now don't go to work anyways" is dumb because who are you to say that as more people use these legal drugs they won't start becoming the majority not the minority. Think of all the people who are messed up on drugs today while we HAVE illegal drugs... i think you can easily multiply that number if they aren't illegal.
All i'm saying is more bad can come from that than good.
law changes good... no laws bad
The Sentence Below Is True
The Sentence Above Is False
All i'm saying is more bad can come from that than good.
law changes good... no laws bad
Drugs weren't criminalized until the early 20th century - 1920s and 1930s I believe. These legal drugs included heroin. Are you implying that in the early part of the 20th century, 60% of the population were addicts?
I asked a valid question from your post. You say that you cannot equate lightbulbs and human health. Yet I'd argue that lightbulbs have done more for human health than any medicine ever invented.
That isn't a valid argument. The light-bulb is a fine little invention, but it wouldn't have been possible without harnessing electricity-150 years ago. I guess we could back to fire and the wheel if you please. Lightbulbs haven't changed much over the past 100 years, but medicine has. More notable is the change in the market dominance of pharmaceuticals over the past 25-30 years as a viable stock option, rather than an honest way to improve the health of humans in general. The drugs have hardly changed.
You go ahead and keep blaming the consumer, laugh away. I can't believe you take it so lightly. Half the time I read these posts of yours I think you're trying to make some sort of personal rationale for inheriting your Daddy's company.
and don't compare hard drugs like heroin etc. to nicotine. If you even think they are in the same league as drugs then you've never been a nurse or doctor in a hospital that can see how powerful some drugs can be.
however, think about it... teens experiment. So if they have access to ANY drug they want there is a GREAT chance TONS of teens will try these, be fucked up, continue to be fucked up into adulthood and in a few generations have as many as 200 million people addicted to all kinds of drugs. So I think making statements like "people who use drugs now don't go to work anyways" is dumb because who are you to say that as more people use these legal drugs they won't start becoming the majority not the minority. Think of all the people who are messed up on drugs today while we HAVE illegal drugs... i think you can easily multiply that number if they aren't illegal.
All i'm saying is more bad can come from that than good.
law changes good... no laws bad
it was much easier for me to get illegal drugs than it was for me to alcohol. legalizing drugs is not going to do anything but allow us, as a society, to bring illegal drugs under careful regulation, rather than the violent freewheeling market out there now. just becos something is legal doesn't mean kids will do it. education has done wonders for reducing smoking. there's no reason to think real education about drug abuse could not be effective if we remove the ridiculous bullshit myths people like you buy into without question.
so you're a nurse... have you BEEN to rehab? cos i have. i've lived with these people and spoken to them about their stories. and the sky would not start falling if this stuff was legal. but maybe we could get these people into rehab instead of jail.
prohibition didnt do anything to reduce alcohol abuse and only increased the amount of violent crime in society as alcohol sales were controlled by gangsters with no interest in selling legally or only to responsible adults. prohibition is not working for other drugs either. it's creating new problems, and doing nothing to affect or reduce old ones.
Comments
It's a simple article giving some simple historical facts. Jesus Christ.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
but ffg has pointed out some of those facts are flat out wrong or at best misrepresented or circumstantial. and they are interspersed with ridiculous conclusory allegations like the pharmas being behind the narcotics bans to eliminate competition. all in all, this is a pretty poorly written and inaccurate "article" that serves little informative purpose. it's just the kind of dirty campaigning you all love to hate... he's trying to paint them as the hand of darth vader to move more of HIS product. the pharmaceutical companies are dirty enough, you don't need a joke of an article like this of dubious credibility to expose their disgusting policies.
They are evil. I know this first hand.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
You are correct. It is all very interesting. Morphine is actually more dangerous than heroin, not that heroin by any means is a 'safe' drug.
nerd
Although I've never heard of heroin used for 'psychological treatments', the fact that cocaine was used in coca-cola is very interesting, indeed. Didn't Freud think cocaine was a 'treatment' for morphine addiction?
Just an aside, while we are talking about drugs/toxicity.......did you know that water can be deadly, that you can 'overdose' on water. Too much water in a short period of time causes hyponatremia which can lead to death. Just an interesting little fact..........
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
i've no doubt about that. but i dont think this article really gives the right reasons. it's confused and contradictory and, like i said, just propaganda to sell this guy's healthy living system. there's no doubt they're one of the more brutal industries out there, if not the most brutal (minus maybe the health insurance industry), but this article doesn't really say why. just has some nonsensical drug conspiracy bunk. they do very real and shady things. but this article only talks about the cheapest, most tenuous "future tom cruise movie" reasons for it.
Oh...then it's proven.
Look, have pharmaceutical companies done unethical things in their history? Very much so, yes. Have they done illegal things in their history? Very much so, yes. Have they also saved a lot of lives and helped a lot of people that wouldn't have been helped otherwise? Very much so, yes.
This author is grouping a bunch of companies, current and historic, together and pretending they're all the same evil. He grabs onto a handful of facts and then extrapolates them into all sorts of ridiculous conclusions in the guise of fact. Soulsinging is right -- it's a total propaganda piece that serves to push this guy's own approach and products.
All that said, I'm actually more in agreement with this dope than his target. I tend to agree that pharmaceutical products are too often abused, poorly understood, and carelessly prescribed. We have a drug-addicted culture in a lot of ways, and it masks better alternatives. But to lampoon an industry as causing that addiction while their products are the most heavily regulated in the world is pretty silly. The primary drivers of drug use (legal or otherwise) are consumers, not pharmaceutical companies.
http://www.cadoninc.com/bpscanner.htm
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I think heroin was used as a "treatment" for morphine addiction, but I suppose that means cocaine would have been a likely candidate as well.
Definitely on the water thing! I can't think of a single substance you can't "overdose" on. Oxygen too.
Actually, I was taking a stab at our government's silly 'war on drugs'. I work in the medical field and I can tell you a lot of the docs & pharmacists think what is deemed 'illegal' & what isn't is ridiculous.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
No, it's the illusion of cure. Pharm's spend more on marketing and sales than they do research and development. Most of those ridiculous drugs we see advertised on television today are nothing more than slightly altered drugs that have been around for years and years.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Interestingly, there is no toxicity level for THC.
But overall, yes. One man's poison is another's medicine.............
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
this doesn't surprise me at all really. ive suspected as much for years. but i dont think the pharmies are the reason for it. im sure if they were allowed to sell heroin they'd be doing it in a heartbeat. it's become a moral issue somewhere along the line, rather than a medical or liberty issue.
Well, that kind of ties into what I was saying.
If you know someone who was popped for selling a few ounces of weed and is now serving 10 years someplace, the war on drugs doesn't seem so silly. It's a fucking tragedy for a lot of families.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Sweet. Thanks. I think I'd fail....
Where do you think that got that money to spend?
So? Do you get mad when you see ads for lightbulbs too?
Only when they're lying.
Edit: I honestly don't recall seeing any light bulb commercials. And for you to put human health on a par with light bulbs just goes to show, again, the primitivism of your thinking.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I can't say I agree with that. People who do those drugs DO destroy their lives... good for them, it's their own fault. But those same types of people have no money (because they spend it on drugs) and end up stealing from stores, killing people for a few bucks on the street etc. among probably many other bad things that are derived from drug abuse. It will all just bring society as a whole down a little further. In my opinion.
The Sentence Above Is False
Hehe...nice. The correct answer would probably be "from consumers", but you definitely get points for entertainment value here.
You don't see a link between health and lightbulbs? You want to have surgery over open flame?
So in other words I should pay massive premiums on drugs and high taxes for enforcement to prevent people from stealing my money? Sounds like a crappy deal you're offering.
I think you get the points for entertainment.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I think your alternative is to have everything legal, have about 200 million addicts in this country alone wherein most people will stop going to work, start having weeklong drug parties, lay around, steal/kill for more money to get these "legal" drugs because they aren't working, and end up dieing....
good times.
I agree that some drugs should be legalized, and premiums are high etc. but going to an EXTREME like you are suggesting is ridiculous.
Someones "rights" only go to the point where they infringe on someone elses rights...
The Sentence Above Is False
I asked a valid question from your post. You say that you cannot equate lightbulbs and human health. Yet I'd argue that lightbulbs have done more for human health than any medicine ever invented.
that myth isn't true. i know crackheads. most of them are too fucked up to be killing people. the people doing the killing are the drug dealers and it's over sales turf. legalize the drug trade and you take them out of the equation. you also stabilize the source of the drugs, which means fewer overdoses, and less desperate junkies becos they're not at the mercy of an arbitrary dealer.
200 million addicts??? If heroin became legal today, would you be a heroin adict tomorrow?
Furthermore, why do you think so mean people would be stealing or killing? I mean, people don't kill or steal for cigarettes or prozac on any massive scale.
Why is it ridiculous??? The only ridiculous thing I see here is the contention that legalized drugs would create 200 million addicts and mass deaths and the complete loss of property rights.
this would never happen. and the people who'd stop going to work aren't exactly going now anyway. and they're mostly working jobs that can easily be filled by someone else if they decide they want to stay home and shoot up until they die.
I'm not suggesting anyone has the right to kill or to steal.
EDIT: You might want to consider your own logic here. In an attempt to defend yourself from murder and theft, you've gone too far in suggesting that you have the right to eliminate behaviors that only contribute to murder or theft. So you're the one suggesting that you have rights that extend into infringement.
and don't compare hard drugs like heroin etc. to nicotine. If you even think they are in the same league as drugs then you've never been a nurse or doctor in a hospital that can see how powerful some drugs can be.
however, think about it... teens experiment. So if they have access to ANY drug they want there is a GREAT chance TONS of teens will try these, be fucked up, continue to be fucked up into adulthood and in a few generations have as many as 200 million people addicted to all kinds of drugs. So I think making statements like "people who use drugs now don't go to work anyways" is dumb because who are you to say that as more people use these legal drugs they won't start becoming the majority not the minority. Think of all the people who are messed up on drugs today while we HAVE illegal drugs... i think you can easily multiply that number if they aren't illegal.
All i'm saying is more bad can come from that than good.
law changes good... no laws bad
The Sentence Above Is False
That isn't a valid argument. The light-bulb is a fine little invention, but it wouldn't have been possible without harnessing electricity-150 years ago. I guess we could back to fire and the wheel if you please. Lightbulbs haven't changed much over the past 100 years, but medicine has. More notable is the change in the market dominance of pharmaceuticals over the past 25-30 years as a viable stock option, rather than an honest way to improve the health of humans in general. The drugs have hardly changed.
You go ahead and keep blaming the consumer, laugh away. I can't believe you take it so lightly. Half the time I read these posts of yours I think you're trying to make some sort of personal rationale for inheriting your Daddy's company.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
it was much easier for me to get illegal drugs than it was for me to alcohol. legalizing drugs is not going to do anything but allow us, as a society, to bring illegal drugs under careful regulation, rather than the violent freewheeling market out there now. just becos something is legal doesn't mean kids will do it. education has done wonders for reducing smoking. there's no reason to think real education about drug abuse could not be effective if we remove the ridiculous bullshit myths people like you buy into without question.
so you're a nurse... have you BEEN to rehab? cos i have. i've lived with these people and spoken to them about their stories. and the sky would not start falling if this stuff was legal. but maybe we could get these people into rehab instead of jail.
prohibition didnt do anything to reduce alcohol abuse and only increased the amount of violent crime in society as alcohol sales were controlled by gangsters with no interest in selling legally or only to responsible adults. prohibition is not working for other drugs either. it's creating new problems, and doing nothing to affect or reduce old ones.