Is everyone inherently good?

catefrances

onelongsong wrote:

i must have mispoke. when i hear the word inherently; the senareo that comes to mind is a child born and raised without parents. thus my post that the child will revert to natural instincts.
i'm stuck on the word inherently because once that child is taught something; it isn't inherent.
i'm sorry if i said something to offend you. i didn't mean to.

you didnt offend me (cause you know i'd let you know if you did) and i never used the word inherently.

NMyTree

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Wow, you must be the oldest PJ fan in the world if you are old enough to haved experienced being hung out to dry by German Jews. How else could you have such a strong opinion?


Underhanded crap?

I hope one day you find some enlightenment and let go of your stereotypes, my friend.

It's a stereotype to say all walks of life have good and bad individuals?

LMAO! Now I've hear everything.

Oh, and other part is historical fact.

chopitdown

sexysurfergirl wrote:

so why when were children/toddlers do we instinctively feel such things as regret or sorrow if we know *instinctively* weve done something wrong??

no one is born evil.... its our surroundings surely

that last line, it's our surroundings surely is interesting. Do you hope it's our surroundings b/c if it's not our surroundings it has to be something within us that causes us to do wrong? The question really becomes with your example..why did the toddlers do something wrong in the first place?

sexysurfergirl

chopitdown wrote:

that last line, it's our surroundings surely is interesting. Do you hope it's our surroundings b/c if it's not our surroundings it has to be something within us that causes us to do wrong? The question really becomes with your example..why did the toddlers do something wrong in the first place?

we all have free will thrown in, its choices..... and we can be influenced by what is around us....

i dont believe a murderer is born to be a murderer, as a child they will cry, laugh,and want to be liked etc.... but a person becomes who they are with what they absorb.....

as for the last bit, are you refering to adam and eve???

onelongsong

chopitdown wrote:

that last line, it's our surroundings surely is interesting. Do you hope it's our surroundings b/c if it's not our surroundings it has to be something within us that causes us to do wrong? The question really becomes with your example..why did the toddlers do something wrong in the first place?

me thinks she means enviornment. those raised in an inner city enviornment are more likely to commit a crime (do wrong) than one raised in the country. i believe it's because they see crime on a daily basis and are more apt to accept it as normal behavior.

sorry if i buggered up what you were trying to say sexy.

chopitdown

sexysurfergirl wrote:

we all have free will thrown in, its choices..... and we can be influenced by what is around us....

i dont believe a murderer is born to be a murderer, as a child they will cry, laugh,and want to be liked etc.... but a person becomes who they are with what they absorb.....

as for the last bit, are you refering to adam and eve???

the last bit i'm referring to is an innate goodness or badness, i believe you could imlicate adam and eve, using the bible. I agree that we have free will and that nature and nurture play a role, but the quesiton becomes what choices lead up to them becoming a monster. It sounds to me, and i could be wrong, that you're taking all responsibility away from teh person doing the action and excusing (not explaining) the act. I personally believe that people want to do good, but no one does good all the time. Why are we constantly let down by people in general. Sure there are people who do very good things and help out, but look around and see all the problems in the world...kinda hard to think that it's all just environment and there's not some innate sense of gravitation toward wrong.

chopitdown

onelongsong wrote:

me thinks she means enviornment. those raised in an inner city enviornment are more likely to commit a crime (do wrong) than one raised in the country. i believe it's because they see crime on a daily basis and are more apt to accept it as normal behavior.

sorry if i buggered up what you were trying to say sexy.

I'd agree to some extent that is true...i just think it goes deeper than that

sexysurfergirl

chopitdown wrote:

the last bit i'm referring to is an innate goodness or badness, i believe you could imlicate adam and eve, using the bible. I agree that we have free will and that nature and nurture play a role, but the quesiton becomes what choices lead up to them becoming a monster. It sounds to me, and i could be wrong, that you're taking all responsibility away from teh person doing the action and excusing (not explaining) the act. I personally believe that people want to do good, but no one does good all the time. Why are we constantly let down by people in general. Sure there are people who do very good things and help out, but look around and see all the problems in the world...kinda hard to think that it's all just environment and there's not some innate sense of gravitation toward wrong.

there is a good point ...

onelongsong

chopitdown wrote:

I'd agree to some extent that is true...i just think it goes deeper than that

it goes a lot deeper than that. i didn't want to put words in her mouth so i kept it short. i hate when someone tries to explain what i was trying to say.
btw; great post on the other thread.

sexysurfergirl

onelongsong wrote:

me thinks she means enviornment. those raised in an inner city enviornment are more likely to commit a crime (do wrong) than one raised in the country. i believe it's because they see crime on a daily basis and are more apt to accept it as normal behavior.

sorry if i buggered up what you were trying to say sexy.

nah, you clarified, thanks onelongsong!

chopitdown

onelongsong wrote:

it goes a lot deeper than that. i didn't want to put words in her mouth so i kept it short. i hate when someone tries to explain what i was trying to say.
btw; great post on the other thread.

fair enough...and thanks.

is it just my way

I honestly don't know the true answer to this, to me its all just people's opinions, i think we are born with a clean slate, and our environment which we live in shapes up, thats both our home and the society in which we live, I have this poem hanging in my classroom ( of a day care center which my room consists of 18 month to 3 and a half year olds) i think its a great poem and one that has many truths to it.

'How a child Learns"

If a child lives with criticism,
he learns to condemn.
If a Child lives with hostility,
she learns to fight.
If a child lives with ridicule,
he learns to be shy.
If a child lives with shame,
she learns to feel guilty.
If a child lives with tolerance,
he learns to be patient.
If a child lives with encouragement,
she learns confidence.
If a child lives with praise,
he learns to appreciate.
If a child lives with fairness,
she learns justice.
If a child lives with security,
he learns to have faith.
If a child lives with approval,
she learns to like herself.
If a child lives with acceptance and friendship,
he learns to find love in the world.

deadnothingbetter

searchlightsoul wrote:

IMO Good and evil don't exist. The world is not black and white.

oh... please... now, you've got to explain this.

onelongsong

i did a little research and found these articles. i found them interesting.


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...51C0A9659C8B63

http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/hanauej/...%20nurture.pdf

Edward O. Wilson and Steven Pinker have written extensively on this subject.

It is also a huge topic in developmental psychology or any understanding of human nature. It is my view that the nature vs nurture dichotomy is false and the concepts of "original sin" "innate goodness" and the one not mentioned in the thread, proposed by John Locke in the 17th century "tabula rasa" or "blank slate" are all false generalizations.

Jeanie

LikeAnOcean wrote:

Keep in mind, everyone has a different definition of what is good and what is evil.. right and wrong basically comes down to political views.

Well I'd agree that everyone has a different definition of what good and evil is. I personally subscribe to the idea that there are no good or evil people only good or evil acts.
And as to right and wrong coming down to political views, well I guess I don't agree with you there at all LAO but I understand that that's probably a cultural thing.

Jeanie

JordyWordy wrote:

i think Jeanie's point (correct me if im wrong) is that humans are inherently good AND evil.

regardless of your perspective from politics or morals, all humans have some level of behaviour they believe to be virtuous and other that is not.

"Good and Evil" are not two positions that are there for humans to fall into once we are born, they are Opposites created and sustained by human nature and behaviour.

Can I give you a gold star for being correct?

«

JordyWordy

Jeanie wrote:

Can I give you a gold star for being correct?

«

aww thanks! genuinely my first online gold star! ...ill treasure that!

Jeanie

JordyWordy wrote:

aww thanks! genuinely my first online gold star! ...ill treasure that!

Well I'd have given you an elephant stamp but I got no clue how to do those!

angelica

What we truly inherently are, at our core, is far beyond "good". Good is one side of the coin with "bad" on the other side. The whole of the coin is beyond either good or bad. Good and bad are constructs of our human judgment. Such ideas are the tip of the iceberg of who we truly are.

Those who have touched base with our ground state or our natural essence have described it as being a state of pure Love. The reason for this is that it's so stunning, and amazing--attuning with who we truly are as the whole and not just the tip that we commonly take to be ourselves. When we exist in pure Union and the experience of being Whole, this experience is beyond all human constructs that have opposites. This experience is one of unexplainable joy and peace--a peace that passeth all understanding. Because this attunement is where our most peak experiences stem from, and because such experiences entail such abiding love and peace, our true nature is associated with being "good" or being "love". Even when our true being is far beyond such definitions and limits. Truth can be mapped and discussed for communication purposes. However it cannot actually be defined or limited by words/explanations, because when we define or limit it, it is no longer the Truth.

OutOfBreath

harmless_little_f*** wrote:

I'd like to see you argue that family structure ITSELF is innate to humanity; it isn't. Our society is rife with family breakdown and disintegration. The only thing innate to our humanity is survival of the fittest; every man for himself.

Unfortunately. Like I said, there are people who fly in the face of that view, but they have a hard time being alive.

That is a sentiment that is a bit too common I feel. However, the mere existence of society at all speaks against it. By that logic, we should all live in a mad-max kind of world, and families/permanent groups be rare and far between. We don't and they arent. In fact, all human cultures throughout history has had an arrangement like the family, or at the very least the tribe. The rare exceptions are loners who dont work with the group. Just think of how many things around you at this very moment depends on houndreds of other people. Just the operations required to fill the nearest super-market is really mind boggling.

This above statement is based on a certain interpretation of good and evil. To me, good acts are acts that help others and helps to build and strengthen communities/society. Evil acts are selfish and short-sighted acts for exclusive personal gain at the expense of the community/society. Under this definition, humans are definitely most prone to the former in general. The proof is all around us today.

Oh, and about family disintegration, that is only the traditional nuclear family that is in "crisis" as the dominant model no longer enjoys the absolute hegemony it had some decades ago. (and has lasted for a century or two before that) What you do see is that people remarry, find others to live with in other arrangements, and if you ask them, most people would like to spend more time with friends and family. I'd say that's a sign that people care.

Peace
Dan