evil is a construct.
was there any differentiation between good and evil before religion? my thinking is that all things that are deemed evil are just natural instincts. instincts that are suppressed by a society that feels we are above such things. above all the other animals that inhabit the earth. that somehow we are able to control these things. and that in doing so, we are able to elevate ourselves above the animals. evil needs a morality to sustain and 'justify' it. is that morality an absolute? maybe. personally i doubt it. but maybe tis also subjective. what do you all think?
i think your hatred for religion bleeds into subjects without you knowing it. inherently brings us to birth as i just said. and a child has no comprehension of religion. especially one not taught right and wrong which i bellieve the original question is.
HOWEVER; if we are discussing older people (say teens and up) i believe you'd be correct. well; to a point. i'm spiritual but would have no problem killing someone to protect myself. i don't think that's evil but i suspect you would.
yep animals will revert to fending for themselves etc if needs must, but they wouldnt suddenly do evil acts...
they kill to eat cos they must...they dont kill things just because they want to for no reasons...
their instinct is to look after themselves i agree...
but evil only exists because people CHOOSE that course in life i would say
go to an inner city and look at some of the children left to fend for themselves. they will kill you for your car or purse. again; for survival.
no... our instincts tell us that child molestation is offensive to our sensibilities. not that it is evil. instincts that are quite possible moulded by the society in which we live. tis society generally that tells us what is evil. when was it decided what age a child is? some societies do not even have a childhood that is universally recognised. some cultures go straight from childhood to adulthood through ritual. so where is that in between where one grows and matures into what could be quite possibly deemed an acceptable ideal of an adult?
as for us not all being evil killers... what makes you think that all killers are evil?
since you brought religion into this; in biblical times a girl was married with her first child by age 14. thus it's not child molestation. it's simply picking the fruit when its ripe.
go to an inner city and look at some of the children left to fend for themselves. they will kill you for your car or purse. again; for survival.
yeah so they do it for survival....they wouldnt kill you because they were evil, and for no reason....
i agree with that.... but we wouldnt kill etc without reason as a child .... maybe by accident... but thats a whole different thing!
we naturally want to please others and do good when were little dont we?
i think your hatred for religion bleeds into subjects without you knowing it. inherently brings us to birth as i just said. and a child has no comprehension of religion. especially one not taught right and wrong which i bellieve the original question is.
HOWEVER; if we are discussing older people (say teens and up) i believe you'd be correct. well; to a point. i'm spiritual but would have no problem killing someone to protect myself. i don't think that's evil but i suspect you would.
love ya cate.
hmm... my hatred for religion?
tis true i am an atheist but my values are grounded in religion. i acknowledge that. twas not til i was 11 years old that my beliefs changed. i disagree that a child has no concept of religion. that is a generalist statement and one to which i do not subscribe. there are children who are brought up in religion from the cradle. and ther are those who are not. i grew up in what could be considered a sectarian bordering on atheistic household, yet i was baptised, did my first holy communion and went through confirmation. why was this? my parents did not attend church. not even on high holy days. my da was educated by catholic priests and yet renounced anything to do with religion. so my question would be, was my partaking in these religious ceremonies due to societal pressure in one form or another? were my parents hedging their bets? my own children(of which i have 4) are not baptised and have never taken part in any religious ceremony at all. that will be their decison if/when it arises. i answer their questions as unbiased as i can and quite often ask more questions of them than i answer. i do this cause i want them to think what it is they are asking. i want them to come to their own conclusions, not be influenced by someone who does not share their beliefs or who does not have the answers. having said that, i am fully aware that my non believing attitude is influencing them.
oh and btw i am fully aware of how my lack of religious beliefs 'bleed' into my opinions. and like you i would kill someone to protect myself. i would also kill to protect my children.
thou shalt not kill is not the contention, if we are talking thus. thou shalt not MUDRER is. there is a difference.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i really want to contribute to this but this is hard to have constructive points on cos its so subjective.....but i will say that i do not believe that people come into the world with an inherent evil nature.
inherently good would make me happy, but it makes so little difference in reality cos outside influence changes you so much.
since you brought religion into this; in biblical times a girl was married with her first child by age 14. thus it's not child molestation. it's simply picking the fruit when its ripe.
i think i covered this in my statement that some societies go from childhood to adulthood with nothing in between. when is one considered an adult? it differs greatly between societies. and even sometimes within the same society. but 'we' judge it only from the perspective with which we grew up. tis all we know.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I was reading Will Smith's comments about Hitler and how the Jewish Defense League ignorantly took his comments out of proportion and got me to thinking about this. Most people would argue that Hitler wasn't a "human" and that he was pure evil. But what the hell is evil in the first place? Does that make Hitler a child of the devil?
hmm... my hatred for religion?
tis true i am an atheist but my values are grounded in religion. i acknowledge that. twas not til i was 11 years old that my beliefs changed. i disagree that a child has no concept of religion. that is a generalist statement and one to which i do not subscribe. there are children who are brought up in religion from the cradle. and ther are those who are not. i grew up in what could be considered a sectarian bordering on atheistic household, yet i was baptised, did my first holy communion and went through confirmation. why was this? my parents did not attend church. not even on high holy days. my da was educated by catholic priests and yet renounced anything to do with religion. so my question would be, was my partaking in these religious ceremonies due to societal pressure in one form or another? were my parents hedging their bets? my own children(of which i have 4) are not baptised and have never taken part in any religious ceremony at all. that will be their decison if/when it arises. i answer their questions as unbiased as i can and quite often ask more questions of them than i answer. i do this cause i want them to think what it is they are asking. i want them to come to their own conclusions, not be influenced by someone who does not share their beliefs or who does not have the answers. having said that, i am fully aware that my non believing attitude is influencing them.
oh and btw i am fully aware of how my lack of religious beliefs 'bleed' into my opinions. and like you i would kill someone to protect myself. i would also kill to protect my children.
thou shalt not kill is not the contention, if we are talking thus. thou shalt not MUDRER is. there is a difference.
i must have mispoke. when i hear the word inherently; the senareo that comes to mind is a child born and raised without parents. thus my post that the child will revert to natural instincts.
i'm stuck on the word inherently because once that child is taught something; it isn't inherent.
i'm sorry if i said something to offend you. i didn't mean to.
i must have mispoke. when i hear the word inherently; the senareo that comes to mind is a child born and raised without parents. thus my post that the child will revert to natural instincts.
i'm stuck on the word inherently because once that child is taught something; it isn't inherent.
i'm sorry if i said something to offend you. i didn't mean to.
you didnt offend me (cause you know i'd let you know if you did) and i never used the word inherently.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Wow, you must be the oldest PJ fan in the world if you are old enough to haved experienced being hung out to dry by German Jews. How else could you have such a strong opinion?
Underhanded crap?
I hope one day you find some enlightenment and let go of your stereotypes, my friend.
It's a stereotype to say all walks of life have good and bad individuals?
so why when were children/toddlers do we instinctively feel such things as regret or sorrow if we know *instinctively* weve done something wrong??
no one is born evil.... its our surroundings surely
that last line, it's our surroundings surely is interesting. Do you hope it's our surroundings b/c if it's not our surroundings it has to be something within us that causes us to do wrong? The question really becomes with your example..why did the toddlers do something wrong in the first place?
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
that last line, it's our surroundings surely is interesting. Do you hope it's our surroundings b/c if it's not our surroundings it has to be something within us that causes us to do wrong? The question really becomes with your example..why did the toddlers do something wrong in the first place?
we all have free will thrown in, its choices..... and we can be influenced by what is around us....
i dont believe a murderer is born to be a murderer, as a child they will cry, laugh,and want to be liked etc.... but a person becomes who they are with what they absorb.....
as for the last bit, are you refering to adam and eve???
that last line, it's our surroundings surely is interesting. Do you hope it's our surroundings b/c if it's not our surroundings it has to be something within us that causes us to do wrong? The question really becomes with your example..why did the toddlers do something wrong in the first place?
me thinks she means enviornment. those raised in an inner city enviornment are more likely to commit a crime (do wrong) than one raised in the country. i believe it's because they see crime on a daily basis and are more apt to accept it as normal behavior.
sorry if i buggered up what you were trying to say sexy.
we all have free will thrown in, its choices..... and we can be influenced by what is around us....
i dont believe a murderer is born to be a murderer, as a child they will cry, laugh,and want to be liked etc.... but a person becomes who they are with what they absorb.....
as for the last bit, are you refering to adam and eve???
the last bit i'm referring to is an innate goodness or badness, i believe you could imlicate adam and eve, using the bible. I agree that we have free will and that nature and nurture play a role, but the quesiton becomes what choices lead up to them becoming a monster. It sounds to me, and i could be wrong, that you're taking all responsibility away from teh person doing the action and excusing (not explaining) the act. I personally believe that people want to do good, but no one does good all the time. Why are we constantly let down by people in general. Sure there are people who do very good things and help out, but look around and see all the problems in the world...kinda hard to think that it's all just environment and there's not some innate sense of gravitation toward wrong.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
me thinks she means enviornment. those raised in an inner city enviornment are more likely to commit a crime (do wrong) than one raised in the country. i believe it's because they see crime on a daily basis and are more apt to accept it as normal behavior.
sorry if i buggered up what you were trying to say sexy.
I'd agree to some extent that is true...i just think it goes deeper than that
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
the last bit i'm referring to is an innate goodness or badness, i believe you could imlicate adam and eve, using the bible. I agree that we have free will and that nature and nurture play a role, but the quesiton becomes what choices lead up to them becoming a monster. It sounds to me, and i could be wrong, that you're taking all responsibility away from teh person doing the action and excusing (not explaining) the act. I personally believe that people want to do good, but no one does good all the time. Why are we constantly let down by people in general. Sure there are people who do very good things and help out, but look around and see all the problems in the world...kinda hard to think that it's all just environment and there's not some innate sense of gravitation toward wrong.
I'd agree to some extent that is true...i just think it goes deeper than that
it goes a lot deeper than that. i didn't want to put words in her mouth so i kept it short. i hate when someone tries to explain what i was trying to say.
btw; great post on the other thread.
me thinks she means enviornment. those raised in an inner city enviornment are more likely to commit a crime (do wrong) than one raised in the country. i believe it's because they see crime on a daily basis and are more apt to accept it as normal behavior.
sorry if i buggered up what you were trying to say sexy.
it goes a lot deeper than that. i didn't want to put words in her mouth so i kept it short. i hate when someone tries to explain what i was trying to say.
btw; great post on the other thread.
fair enough...and thanks.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
I honestly don't know the true answer to this, to me its all just people's opinions, i think we are born with a clean slate, and our environment which we live in shapes up, thats both our home and the society in which we live, I have this poem hanging in my classroom ( of a day care center which my room consists of 18 month to 3 and a half year olds) i think its a great poem and one that has many truths to it.
'How a child Learns"
If a child lives with criticism,
he learns to condemn.
If a Child lives with hostility,
she learns to fight.
If a child lives with ridicule,
he learns to be shy.
If a child lives with shame,
she learns to feel guilty.
If a child lives with tolerance,
he learns to be patient.
If a child lives with encouragement,
she learns confidence.
If a child lives with praise,
he learns to appreciate.
If a child lives with fairness,
she learns justice.
If a child lives with security,
he learns to have faith.
If a child lives with approval,
she learns to like herself.
If a child lives with acceptance and friendship,
he learns to find love in the world.
Edward O. Wilson and Steven Pinker have written extensively on this subject.
It is also a huge topic in developmental psychology or any understanding of human nature. It is my view that the nature vs nurture dichotomy is false and the concepts of "original sin" "innate goodness" and the one not mentioned in the thread, proposed by John Locke in the 17th century "tabula rasa" or "blank slate" are all false generalizations.
Keep in mind, everyone has a different definition of what is good and what is evil.. right and wrong basically comes down to political views.
Well I'd agree that everyone has a different definition of what good and evil is. I personally subscribe to the idea that there are no good or evil people only good or evil acts.
And as to right and wrong coming down to political views, well I guess I don't agree with you there at all LAO but I understand that that's probably a cultural thing.
i think Jeanie's point (correct me if im wrong) is that humans are inherently good AND evil.
regardless of your perspective from politics or morals, all humans have some level of behaviour they believe to be virtuous and other that is not.
"Good and Evil" are not two positions that are there for humans to fall into once we are born, they are Opposites created and sustained by human nature and behaviour.
What we truly inherently are, at our core, is far beyond "good". Good is one side of the coin with "bad" on the other side. The whole of the coin is beyond either good or bad. Good and bad are constructs of our human judgment. Such ideas are the tip of the iceberg of who we truly are.
Those who have touched base with our ground state or our natural essence have described it as being a state of pure Love. The reason for this is that it's so stunning, and amazing--attuning with who we truly are as the whole and not just the tip that we commonly take to be ourselves. When we exist in pure Union and the experience of being Whole, this experience is beyond all human constructs that have opposites. This experience is one of unexplainable joy and peace--a peace that passeth all understanding. Because this attunement is where our most peak experiences stem from, and because such experiences entail such abiding love and peace, our true nature is associated with being "good" or being "love". Even when our true being is far beyond such definitions and limits. Truth can be mapped and discussed for communication purposes. However it cannot actually be defined or limited by words/explanations, because when we define or limit it, it is no longer the Truth.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I'd like to see you argue that family structure ITSELF is innate to humanity; it isn't. Our society is rife with family breakdown and disintegration. The only thing innate to our humanity is survival of the fittest; every man for himself.
Unfortunately. Like I said, there are people who fly in the face of that view, but they have a hard time being alive.
That is a sentiment that is a bit too common I feel. However, the mere existence of society at all speaks against it. By that logic, we should all live in a mad-max kind of world, and families/permanent groups be rare and far between. We don't and they arent. In fact, all human cultures throughout history has had an arrangement like the family, or at the very least the tribe. The rare exceptions are loners who dont work with the group. Just think of how many things around you at this very moment depends on houndreds of other people. Just the operations required to fill the nearest super-market is really mind boggling.
This above statement is based on a certain interpretation of good and evil. To me, good acts are acts that help others and helps to build and strengthen communities/society. Evil acts are selfish and short-sighted acts for exclusive personal gain at the expense of the community/society. Under this definition, humans are definitely most prone to the former in general. The proof is all around us today.
Oh, and about family disintegration, that is only the traditional nuclear family that is in "crisis" as the dominant model no longer enjoys the absolute hegemony it had some decades ago. (and has lasted for a century or two before that) What you do see is that people remarry, find others to live with in other arrangements, and if you ask them, most people would like to spend more time with friends and family. I'd say that's a sign that people care.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Comments
i think your hatred for religion bleeds into subjects without you knowing it. inherently brings us to birth as i just said. and a child has no comprehension of religion. especially one not taught right and wrong which i bellieve the original question is.
HOWEVER; if we are discussing older people (say teens and up) i believe you'd be correct. well; to a point. i'm spiritual but would have no problem killing someone to protect myself. i don't think that's evil but i suspect you would.
love ya cate.
go to an inner city and look at some of the children left to fend for themselves. they will kill you for your car or purse. again; for survival.
since you brought religion into this; in biblical times a girl was married with her first child by age 14. thus it's not child molestation. it's simply picking the fruit when its ripe.
yeah so they do it for survival....they wouldnt kill you because they were evil, and for no reason....
i agree with that.... but we wouldnt kill etc without reason as a child .... maybe by accident... but thats a whole different thing!
we naturally want to please others and do good when were little dont we?
am i alone on this one???
"Forgive every being,
the bad feelings
it's just me"
hmm... my hatred for religion?
tis true i am an atheist but my values are grounded in religion. i acknowledge that. twas not til i was 11 years old that my beliefs changed. i disagree that a child has no concept of religion. that is a generalist statement and one to which i do not subscribe. there are children who are brought up in religion from the cradle. and ther are those who are not. i grew up in what could be considered a sectarian bordering on atheistic household, yet i was baptised, did my first holy communion and went through confirmation. why was this? my parents did not attend church. not even on high holy days. my da was educated by catholic priests and yet renounced anything to do with religion. so my question would be, was my partaking in these religious ceremonies due to societal pressure in one form or another? were my parents hedging their bets? my own children(of which i have 4) are not baptised and have never taken part in any religious ceremony at all. that will be their decison if/when it arises. i answer their questions as unbiased as i can and quite often ask more questions of them than i answer. i do this cause i want them to think what it is they are asking. i want them to come to their own conclusions, not be influenced by someone who does not share their beliefs or who does not have the answers. having said that, i am fully aware that my non believing attitude is influencing them.
oh and btw i am fully aware of how my lack of religious beliefs 'bleed' into my opinions. and like you i would kill someone to protect myself. i would also kill to protect my children.
thou shalt not kill is not the contention, if we are talking thus. thou shalt not MUDRER is. there is a difference.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
inherently good would make me happy, but it makes so little difference in reality cos outside influence changes you so much.
i think i covered this in my statement that some societies go from childhood to adulthood with nothing in between. when is one considered an adult? it differs greatly between societies. and even sometimes within the same society. but 'we' judge it only from the perspective with which we grew up. tis all we know.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
IMO Good and evil don't exist. The world is not black and white.
i must have mispoke. when i hear the word inherently; the senareo that comes to mind is a child born and raised without parents. thus my post that the child will revert to natural instincts.
i'm stuck on the word inherently because once that child is taught something; it isn't inherent.
i'm sorry if i said something to offend you. i didn't mean to.
you didnt offend me (cause you know i'd let you know if you did)
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
It's a stereotype to say all walks of life have good and bad individuals?
LMAO! Now I've hear everything.
Oh, and other part is historical fact.
that last line, it's our surroundings surely is interesting. Do you hope it's our surroundings b/c if it's not our surroundings it has to be something within us that causes us to do wrong? The question really becomes with your example..why did the toddlers do something wrong in the first place?
we all have free will thrown in, its choices..... and we can be influenced by what is around us....
i dont believe a murderer is born to be a murderer, as a child they will cry, laugh,and want to be liked etc.... but a person becomes who they are with what they absorb.....
as for the last bit, are you refering to adam and eve???
me thinks she means enviornment. those raised in an inner city enviornment are more likely to commit a crime (do wrong) than one raised in the country. i believe it's because they see crime on a daily basis and are more apt to accept it as normal behavior.
sorry if i buggered up what you were trying to say sexy.
the last bit i'm referring to is an innate goodness or badness, i believe you could imlicate adam and eve, using the bible. I agree that we have free will and that nature and nurture play a role, but the quesiton becomes what choices lead up to them becoming a monster. It sounds to me, and i could be wrong, that you're taking all responsibility away from teh person doing the action and excusing (not explaining) the act. I personally believe that people want to do good, but no one does good all the time. Why are we constantly let down by people in general. Sure there are people who do very good things and help out, but look around and see all the problems in the world...kinda hard to think that it's all just environment and there's not some innate sense of gravitation toward wrong.
I'd agree to some extent that is true...i just think it goes deeper than that
there is a good point ...
it goes a lot deeper than that. i didn't want to put words in her mouth so i kept it short. i hate when someone tries to explain what i was trying to say.
btw; great post on the other thread.
nah, you clarified, thanks onelongsong!
fair enough...and thanks.
'How a child Learns"
If a child lives with criticism,
he learns to condemn.
If a Child lives with hostility,
she learns to fight.
If a child lives with ridicule,
he learns to be shy.
If a child lives with shame,
she learns to feel guilty.
If a child lives with tolerance,
he learns to be patient.
If a child lives with encouragement,
she learns confidence.
If a child lives with praise,
he learns to appreciate.
If a child lives with fairness,
she learns justice.
If a child lives with security,
he learns to have faith.
If a child lives with approval,
she learns to like herself.
If a child lives with acceptance and friendship,
he learns to find love in the world.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...51C0A9659C8B63
http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/hanauej/...%20nurture.pdf
Edward O. Wilson and Steven Pinker have written extensively on this subject.
It is also a huge topic in developmental psychology or any understanding of human nature. It is my view that the nature vs nurture dichotomy is false and the concepts of "original sin" "innate goodness" and the one not mentioned in the thread, proposed by John Locke in the 17th century "tabula rasa" or "blank slate" are all false generalizations.
Well I'd agree that everyone has a different definition of what good and evil is. I personally subscribe to the idea that there are no good or evil people only good or evil acts.
And as to right and wrong coming down to political views, well
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Can I give you a gold star for being correct?
«
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
aww thanks! genuinely my first online gold star! ...ill treasure that!
Well I'd have given you an elephant stamp but I got no clue how to do those!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Those who have touched base with our ground state or our natural essence have described it as being a state of pure Love. The reason for this is that it's so stunning, and amazing--attuning with who we truly are as the whole and not just the tip that we commonly take to be ourselves. When we exist in pure Union and the experience of being Whole, this experience is beyond all human constructs that have opposites. This experience is one of unexplainable joy and peace--a peace that passeth all understanding. Because this attunement is where our most peak experiences stem from, and because such experiences entail such abiding love and peace, our true nature is associated with being "good" or being "love". Even when our true being is far beyond such definitions and limits. Truth can be mapped and discussed for communication purposes. However it cannot actually be defined or limited by words/explanations, because when we define or limit it, it is no longer the Truth.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
This above statement is based on a certain interpretation of good and evil. To me, good acts are acts that help others and helps to build and strengthen communities/society. Evil acts are selfish and short-sighted acts for exclusive personal gain at the expense of the community/society. Under this definition, humans are definitely most prone to the former in general. The proof is all around us today.
Oh, and about family disintegration, that is only the traditional nuclear family that is in "crisis" as the dominant model no longer enjoys the absolute hegemony it had some decades ago. (and has lasted for a century or two before that) What you do see is that people remarry, find others to live with in other arrangements, and if you ask them, most people would like to spend more time with friends and family. I'd say that's a sign that people care.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965