yea thats the article that made me think it was a set up. or that it COULD have beena set up.
"If any Russian special services were behind it, it was not a good idea to use this polonium, because they could find its origin," he told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.
I firmly believe that putin's people could have been behind this though. especially when it comes from the dying man himself. and the whole reverse pshy technique too.
Nice post, but look what happens to the dissidents, in the process of investigation. They get bumped off. Brown is distancing himself from America, yes, and he does harbour ideas of European federalism too. Yet, I doubt whether he'll be overly-keen to accommodate Putin either, even though there have been big EU moves, to set up bilateral trade links with Russia, and to get it to join the WTO. We'll see.
Fins - while i realise that in your capacity as the world's leading authority on everything in general - every new shred of information needs qualification by you in case we thought for a second there was a minute shred of detail that you didn't already know - I've realised that this thread is probably 3 pages longer than it should be for precisely this reason.
I would have hoped that it was implicit in my statement that, yes, dissidents do get 'bumped off' as a result of political opposition - but nonetheless they WILL continue regardless of intimidatory tactics. Was it not you who posted Litvenenko's final few words 'The Bastard's got me - but they won't get us all'? There are many ready to step up to the plate and and carry on his work.
As for bilateral trade links - repitition, European federalism - non-entity....
So Fins, we have nothing here but a reiteration of most of what i've already said. But I'll sleep better tonight knowing that you know it too. Honestly, I will.
If your going to entertain any notion of a continuing discussion why make a non-post that will stunt a thread's development?
Narcissism still a problem for you? Its ok. I'll humour you. H
What do you call 3 sheep tied together in the middle of Wales? - A Leisure Centre.
Fins - while i realise that in your capacity as the world's leading authority on everything in general - every new shred of information needs qualification by you in case we thought for a second there was a minute shred of detail that you didn't already know - I've realised that this thread is probably 3 pages longer than it should be for precisely this reason.
I would have hoped that it was implicit in my statement that, yes, dissidents do get 'bumped off' as a result of political opposition - but nonetheless they WILL continue regardless of intimidatory tactics. Was it not you who posted Litvenenko's final few words 'The Bastard's got me - but they won't get us all'? There are many ready to step up to the plate and and carry on his work.
As for bilateral trade links - repitition, European federalism - non-entity....
So Fins, we have nothing here but a reiteration of most of what i've already said. But I'll sleep better tonight knowing that you know it too. Honestly, I will.
Narcissism still a problem for you? Its ok. I'll humour you. H
Brevity is the soul of wit. That last post had too many polysyllables.
Yes, dissidents will continue to oppose the government, but they do seem to get bumped off, before they can really challenge the status quo. This is why this British Cobra team needs to do some investigating of its own.
Brevity is the soul of wit. That last post had too many polysyllables.
Yes, dissidents will continue to oppose the government, but they do seem to get bumped off, before they can really challenge the status quo. This is why this British Cobra team needs to do some investigating of its own.
Very droll. But you know I'm right. So at least try entertain a fruitful discussion instead of bluntly attempting to 'educate' people.
When Cobra comes up with anything noteworthy be sure to send me a link. It will probably be the only link to them - because they really don't appear to be doing much at all. Perhaps they need the guiding hand of a private consultancy firm....
What do you call 3 sheep tied together in the middle of Wales? - A Leisure Centre.
Very droll. But you know I'm right. So at least try entertain a fruitful discussion instead of bluntly attempting to 'educate' people.
When Cobra comes up with anything noteworthy be sure to send me a link. It will probably be the only link to them - because they really don't appear to be doing much at all. Perhaps they need the guiding hand of a private consultancy firm....
The reason why I don't know you're right is because your points aren't clearly expressed.
Cobra has a duty to investigate a radioactive leak on British soil, which has killed one British citizen and hospitalised three more. It's a matter of national security, not an occasion for a Blairite focus group. Even Blair's bully boy Reid knows this:
The reason why I don't know you're right is because your points aren't clearly expressed.
Cobra has a duty to investigate a radioactive leak on British soil, which has killed one British citizen and hospitalised three more. It's a matter of national security, not an occasion for a Blairite focus group. Even Blair's bully boy Reid knows this:
So after professing to maintain a faultless command of contextual observation and so poignantly preserving the brevity of wit - you're so far up your own arse that you don't even notice irony? It was a joke Fins - private consultancy firms have cost the taxpayer nigh on £70bn since 1997....and there is much discontent. In your trawling of newspaper's for tit-bits to educate those shrouded in ignorance have the buzz-words 'delivery partners' not come into view?
Perhaps it was I who made the mistake of joking with a narcissist.
The reason I know your a prick is because you seem to, with stunning consistency, re-iterate - in near enough perfect tone - the inconsistencies and bland prosetylising of The Independent. And to be honest - its pretty boring. Think for yourself man - its far too easy to let someone else do it for you.
What do you call 3 sheep tied together in the middle of Wales? - A Leisure Centre.
So after professing to maintain a faultless command of contextual observation and so poignantly preserving the brevity of wit - you're so far up your own arse that you don't even notice irony? It was a joke Fins - private consultancy firms have cost the taxpayer nigh on £70bn since 1997....and there is much discontent. In your trawling of newspaper's for tit-bits to educate those shrouded in ignorance have the buzz-words 'delivery partners' not come into view?
Perhaps it was I who made the mistake of joking with a narcissist.
The reason I know your a prick is because you seem to, with stunning consistency, re-iterate - in near enough perfect tone - the inconsistencies and bland prosetylising of The Independent. And to be honest - its pretty boring. Think for yourself man - its far too easy to let someone else do it for you.
Maybe it should have come to your attention, but critical analysis of any information involves acquaintance with the available text. The Independent has led the press, since the Litvinenko case emerged, in delivering info - that's info, never mind comment - out there. I deal with deductive reasoning based on what's prominent in the media.
What other credible source do you suggest? "Thinking for oneself" equates with ignorance, when one claims to want to know what happened but has some irrational aversion to the practices and products of investigative journalism.
Now, a word of advice. It's constructive to engage in debate, and it is fun to lock horns; to be intellectually combative is one of the great pursuits of the mind and one of the pleasures of engaging in any forum. However, if you resort to petty abuse, rather than take on a contrary position cleverly, you inevitably lose any argument. Think of the Monty Python sketch. There's a room for argument, and a room for abuse.
Now, if you disagree with my points, do some research and challenge them via dialectic. I'm genuinely interested to read what you have to offer.
Maybe it should have come to your attention, but critical analysis of any information involves acquaintance with the available text. The Independent has led the press, since the Litvinenko case emerged, in delivering info - that's info, never mind comment - out there. I deal with deductive reasoning based on what's prominent in the media.
What other credible source do you suggest? "Thinking for oneself" equates with ignorance, when one claims to want to know what happened but has some irrational aversion to the practices and products of investigative journalism.
Now, a word of advice. It's constructive to engage in debate, and it is fun to lock horns; to be intellectually combative is one of the great pursuits of the mind and one of the pleasures of engaging in any forum. However, if you resort to petty abuse, rather than take on a contrary position cleverly, you inevitably lose any argument. Think of the Monty Python sketch. There's a room for argument, and a room for abuse.
Now, if you disagree with my points, do some research and challenge them via dialectic. I'm genuinely interested to read what you have to offer.
Thats my point - your not interested at all...All your interested in doing is reproducing evidence without any inflection of your own. Sure you need to do research in order to come with any basis for argument and while there is no such thing as objective journalism - there is value in adding your own point of view - based upon the evidence available.
If you think i'm going to rise to your condescending posturing your sadly mistaken. I've met many like you and I'm sure I will continue to come across your ilk in the future. Its vaguely saddening experience for those of us who value constructive discussion. Intellectually locking horns?
How can this be so when you sidestep the point and look to the hills for answers?
What do you call 3 sheep tied together in the middle of Wales? - A Leisure Centre.
Thats my point - your not interested at all...All your interested in doing is reproducing evidence without any inflection of your own. Sure you need to do research in order to come with any basis for argument and while there is no such thing as objective journalism - there is value in adding your own point of view - based upon the evidence available.
If you think i'm going to rise to your condescending posturing your sadly mistaken. I've met many like you and I'm sure I will continue to come across your ilk in the future. Its vaguely saddening experience for those of us who value constructive discussion. Intellectually locking horns?
How can this be so when you sidestep the point and look to the hills for answers?
Were these people like me, your lecturers, who marked your papers down for straying off the point? Read the details. After Litvinenko died, people on here were clamouring to establish facts. We argued over what information was available, and its meaning. Wordy, vapid and meaningless posts pretending to have some kind of pseudo-sociological and historical context don't aid the main point of inquiry. We're in the dark about the facts, and are vigorously arguing - in my mind, entertainingly so - about how to reach them. Yes, this is a Whodunnit, and people will compete to discount each other's pet theories when something like this happens. That's how A Moving Train works. It's sport.
Fook me. Now that's another twist in the tale. Cheers for that! Now, I wouldn't discount Fox, when it comes to knowing about the inner workings and hidden motivations of the oil business.
I see the Conservative Party is now kicking the political fitbah around, now:
Edit: I just tried to offer the longest link, ever... and it wouldn't work. Trying again:
thought a different opinion might be interesting in this discussion
Thanks for the article. Makes some great points covering a lot of the potential motives.
The article however, doesnt take into consideration the arrogance of Putin. I have also thought about the possible suicide scenario but still cant bring myself around to the idea. My only response would be to discredit Putin now before he is out of office in a couple years. Even so, 60 seems like a lot better age to prove a point than at 42.
It has come to my attention, through a very reliable source, that the asassination of Alevaxandr Litvenenko is closely linked to an official state secret that he had threatened to divulge.
While, understandably, not wanting to name names - my source was able to quite clearly demonstrate a relationship of decadence and depravity between the opposing sides. Apparently a Presidential Couple had been staging a Sado-Masochistic Fetish party at an official residence. Invited to the party - Mr Litvenenko apparently, at one stage, saw the Presidential First Lady touching an Iguana in places that an Iguana should never be touched.
Apparently other guests were fully aware of these activiities - but the Litvenenko's, newcomers to the scene, found themselves shocked and ashamed by the whole ordeal.
My source informs me the Litvenenko spat on the carpet and promptly fucked off to London.
4 Weeks ago in Hammersmith he was attacked by 2 burly Russians threatening to 'fuck him sideways' if he didn't keep his mouth shut.
Alex couldn't keep his mouth shut. So he got fucked sideways.
Moral to the story: Eat more vegetables.
What do you call 3 sheep tied together in the middle of Wales? - A Leisure Centre.
It has come to my attention, through a very reliable source, that the asassination of Alevaxandr Litvenenko is closely linked to an official state secret that he had threatened to divulge.
While, understandably, not wanting to name names - my source was able to quite clearly demonstrate a relationship of decadence and depravity between the opposing sides. Apparently a Presidential Couple had been staging a Sado-Masochistic Fetish party at an official residence. Invited to the party - Mr Litvenenko apparently, at one stage, saw the Presidential First Lady touching an Iguana in places that an Iguana should never be touched.
Apparently other guests were fully aware of these activiities - but the Litvenenko's, newcomers to the scene, found themselves shocked and ashamed by the whole ordeal.
My source informs me the Litvenenko spat on the carpet and promptly fucked off to London.
4 Weeks ago in Hammersmith he was attacked by 2 burly Russians threatening to 'fuck him sideways' if he didn't keep his mouth shut.
Alex couldn't keep his mouth shut. So he got fucked sideways.
I still say shut the fuck up. Keep to the subject and off iguana pussy.
Dear Sir,
If you had even a rudimentary knowledge of Iguana anatomy you would perhaps not make such a bold statement.
As for shutting the fuck up...Well, experience has shown that this is never the righteous path. And I'm all about righteous path's.
As for subject...
Well I'll leave that to you and your friends - as it seems to be replaced on a self-congratulatory basis - not, in fact, on the basis that it will further the discussion.
At present I am concerning myself with Iguana farming...If you're interested in the H.P. product - then do get in contact.
H
What do you call 3 sheep tied together in the middle of Wales? - A Leisure Centre.
The documents they discussed, seen by The Independent, accused both men of being part of a conspiracy to besmirch the name of the FSB and there was a " necessity to use force" to silence them. The papers also purported to name a retired KGB agent who was responsible for planning the murder of the dissident journalist Anna Politkovskaya at her Moscow apartment in October.
yikes!
___________________
The professor in the library with a candlestick. That's my final answer.
_____________________
More seriously, this is obviously a politically motivated murder. Good luck with that!
thought a different opinion might be interesting in this discussion
Is Putin Being Set Up?
by Patrick J. Buchanan
Posted Nov 27, 2006
PARIS—Whoever poisoned Alexander Litvinenko had two goals: a long and lingering death for the KGB defector and pointing a finger of accusation for his killing right in the face of Vladimir Putin.
Which leads me to believe Putin had nothing to do with it.
In an assassination, one must ask: Cui bono? To whose benefit? Who would gain from the poisoning of Litvinenko?
Certainly not Putin. Litvinenko's death puts him, the Kremlin and the KGB, now the FSB, under suspicion of having reverted to the terror tactics of Stalin, who commissioned killers to liquidate enemies like Leon Trotsky, murdered in Mexico in 1940.
What benefit could Putin conceivably realize from the London killing of an enemy of his regime, who had just become a British citizen? Why would the Russian president, at the peak of his popularity, with his regime awash in oil revenue and himself playing a strong hand in world politics, risk a breach with every Western nation by ordering the public murder of a man who was more of a nuisance than a threat to his regime?
Litvinenko, after all, made his sensational charges against the Kremlin—that the KGB blew up the Moscow apartment buildings, not Chechen terrorists, as a casus belli for a war on Chechnya and that he had refused a KGB order to assassinate oligarch Boris Berezovsky— in the late 1990s. Of late, Litvinenko has been regarded as a less and less credible figure, with his charges of KGB involvement in 9-11 and complicity in the Danish cartoons mocking Muhammad that ignited the Muslim firestorm.
Yet, listening to some Western pundits on the BBC and Fox News, one would think Putin himself poisoned Litvinenko. Who else, they ask, could have acquired polonium 210, the rare radioactive substance used to kill Litvinenko? Who else had the motive to eliminate the ex-agent who had dedicated his life to exposing the crimes of the Kremlin?
Indeed, no sooner had Litvinenko expired than his collaborator in anti-Putin politics, Alex Goldfarb, was in front of the television cameras reading Litvinenko's deathbed statement charging Putin with murder:
"You may succeed in silencing one man, but the howl of protest from around the world will reverberate, Mr. Putin, in your ears for the rest of your life. ... You may succeed in silencing me, but that silence comes at a price. You have shown yourself to be as barbaric and ruthless as your most hostile critics have claimed."
Litvinenko's statement is awfully coherent and eloquent for a man writhing in a death agony. But if he did not write it, who did? All of which leads me to conclude Putin is being set up, framed for a crime he did not commit. But then, if Putin did not order the killing, who did?
Who else could have acquired the polonium 210? Who else would kill Litvinenko to make Putin a pariah? These are the questions Scotland Yard, which also seems skeptical that Putin had a hand in this bizarre business, has begun to ask.
As the predictable effect of Litvinenko's death has been to put a cloud of suspicion over Putin and a chill over Russian relations with the West, one must ask: To whose benefit is the discrediting of Putin? Who would seek a renewal of the Cold War?
Certainly, the oligarchs and robber barons like Berezovsky—many of them now dispossessed of the wealth they amassed in a collapsing Soviet Union, and all of whom have been run out of the country or imprisoned—have the most powerful of motives. They hate Putin and seek to bring him down. And Goldfarb and Litvinenko both enjoyed the patronage of the billionaire Berezovsky.
Surely, rogue or retired KGB agents, passed over by Putin and bitter at Litvinenko, would have a motive: to send a message, written in polonium 210, that this is what happens to those who betray us and Mother Russia.
Scotland Yard has yet to declare this a murder case and is looking into the possibility of a "martyrdom operation"—suicide dressed up like murder—in which Litvinenko may have colluded. The Putin-dominated Russian press is pushing this line, as well as the idea of an oligarchs' plot to discredit Putin and destroy Russia's relations with the West.
Yet Litvinenko was still in his early 40s, with a wife and two children. While his agonizing public death would make him a celebrity even more famous than Georgi Markov, the Bulgarian anti-communist murdered in London in 1979 with a poison-tipped umbrella, Litvinenko would not be around to enjoy his fame.
America has a vital interest in this Scotland Yard investigation. What it discovers may tell us more about the character of the man into whose eyes George Bush claimed to have stared, and seen his soul, or it may tell us who the real enemies of this country are, who are out to restart the Cold War, and perhaps another hot one.
Exactly. This is why I was feeling uneasy the other day. The whole thing has "Look mum, Putin's been naughty" written all over it. Yes, he could well have done. He's got reasons and the arrogance. Then again, a lot of other people will probably enjoy Russia being falsely accused. In an earlier post I went as far as to say who know maybe the UK did it. I know, farfetched. But you never know and we may never know. Fact is, that relations with Putin will be strained, even if he didn't do it and everyone else just thinks he did. And there's a lot of gas involved... Who can we believe?
Like a cloud dropping rain
I'm discarding all thought
I'll dry up, leaving puddles on the ground
I'm like an opening band for the sun
The amount of Plonium-210, as well as any of the isotopes we sell is an 'exempt quantity' amount. These quantities of radioactive material are not hazardous - this is why they are permitted by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) to be sold to the general public without any sort of license.
Although we do sell these isotopes, distributors such as United Nuclear Scientific Supplies (and just about any isotope distributor) do not actually stock them.
All isotopes are made to order at an NRC licensed reactor in Oak Ridge Tennessee. When the isotope is made, it is shipped directly to the customer from the reactor to insure the longest possible half-life.
The exempt quantity amount of Polonium-210, or any of the radioactive isotopes sold is so small that they are essentially invisible to the human eye.
In the case of needle sources, the radioactive material is electroplated on the inside of the eye of a needle.
You would need about 15,000 of our Polonium-210 needle sources
at a total cost of about $1 million - to have a toxic amount.
In comparison, Amercium-241 is a similar toxic Alpha radiation emitter.
Instead of a half life of 138 days like Polonium-210 has, it has a half life of over 450 years. It is far more toxic - and there is 10 times more than the 'exempt quantity' amount in every smoke detector in your home.
Mr Gaidar said he felt ill after eating a simple breakfast where he was staying near Dublin. He said he could barely move any of his limbs and had to lie down for most of the afternoon.
Ekaterina Genieva, who helped to organise the conference at National University of Ireland, Maynooth, said Mr Gaidar looked pale and unwell when a few hours later he came down to answer questions about his book The Death of the Empire: Lessons for Contemporary Russia. After about 10 minutes, Mr Gaidar said he had to leave the room.
Apparently today they're saying he had actually been sick on the plane on the way OVER here
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Why shouldnt the Italian man still be considered a suspect?
I read somewhere today that the polonium has been traced back to a specific plant in Russia. This doesnt prove/disprove anything but certainly adds to the speculation.
this link is really good. its 3 pages long so i cant paste it here. it discusses litvinenko's history and his ties with the KGB/FSU and some of the other people involved.
Hospitalizations in Hamburg Tied to Radiation Trail in London
HAMBURG, Germany, Dec. 11 — Four people who had contact here with a business associate of the former Russian agent Alexander V. Litvinenko were hospitalized Monday, on suspicion they had been contaminated by polonium 210.
The business associate, Dmitri V. Kovtun, spent four days in Hamburg in October before flying to London, where he met with Mr. Litvinenko on Nov. 1, the day Mr. Litvinenko became ill from the radiation poisoning that killed him three weeks later.
While in Hamburg, Mr. Kovtun slept for two nights in the apartment of his former wife. The police said they had detected radioactive traces on a child’s car seat and in two bedrooms, suggesting that the ex-wife, Marina, her two children and her boyfriend had been contaminated.
The four people in the apartment were not showing signs of radiation sickness, according to a police spokeswoman, Ulrike Sweden, and it will take a few days of tests to determine whether they ingested the substance. She said there was no public health danger.
The police confirmed Monday that evidence of polonium was found on a seat in a BMW that met Mr. Kovtun at the Hamburg airport on Oct. 28. There were also traces in a second car he had used.
Mr. Kovtun spread a wide trail of radiation during his brief stopover in this northern German port city. His movements here have become central to solving Mr. Litvinenko’s death.
German prosecutors have begun a criminal investigation of Mr. Kovtun, who is reported to be in a hospital in Moscow, saying there was evidence that he might have illegally handled the polonium 210. He could also, however, have left traces of it after being contaminated himself, the police said.
The Hamburg police are pressing the Russian authorities for details on Mr. Kovtun’s health, with conflicting reports suggesting that he was in a coma, seriously ill or not outwardly ill at all.
Germany’s deepening entanglement in the case could strain relations between Berlin and Moscow, which are close but have changed in tone under a new German chancellor, Angela Merkel.
In an interview scheduled to be broadcast on German television Monday night, Mrs. Merkel said of the deaths of Mr. Litvinenko and a journalist, Anna Politkovskaya, “It is not a good sign; it needs to change.”
She called on the Russian authorities to investigate both deaths aggressively, and said President Vladimir V. Putin had assured her that they would. Ms. Sweden, however, said Russian officials still had not answered questions from the Hamburg police about Mr. Kovtun.
British officials have complained that Russia is hampering their investigation of Mr. Litvinenko’s death. On Monday, the Russian prosecutor general, Yuri Y. Chaika, met with Britain’s ambassador to Moscow, Anthony Brenton, to discuss the case.
Mr. Kovtun, a 41-year-old Russian, was a student in the 1980s at the Supreme Soviet Higher Military Command School, many of whose students went on to serve in the K.G.B.
If, as the Germans suspect, Mr. Kovtun handled polonium, it would raise the question of how it got to Germany. According to officials here, he flew from Moscow to Hamburg on Oct. 28 aboard an Aeroflot flight. Aeroflot’s deputy chief spokesman, Viktor F. Sokolov, said no requests had been made to examine any of the company’s aircraft.
He said that all Aeroflot planes arriving at the Moscow airport operated by the airline Sheremetyevo were routinely inspected and that none had shown signs of radiation. Authorities also found no traces in a Germanwings plane that Mr. Kovtun took to London on Nov. 1.
In the Hamburg neighborhood where Mr. Kovtun once lived, radiation specialists went in and out of his ex-wife’s apartment building, hauling luggage, steel cases and objects in sealed plastic bags.
In Russia, no officials commented publicly on the disclosures involving Mr. Kovtun. But Russia’s ambassador to Germany, Vladimir V. Kotenev, rejected claims that his county was not cooperating. “We also have an interest in finding out the truth,” he said on German television.
Russian and British investigators did begin interviewing Andrei K. Lugovoi, who along with Mr. Kovtun, met with Mr. Litvinenko on Nov. 1 in London. An aide to Mr. Lugovoi, reached by telephone, declined to discuss the meeting, but confirmed remarks that he had made to Russian news agencies.
“I was giving evidence purely as a witness,” he said, according to Itar-Tass. He added that the meeting lasted a little longer than three hours and that he “gave exhaustive answers to all the questions.”
Investigators from Russia and Britain also interviewed Mr. Kovtun over three days last week. Afterward, the prosecutor general announced that it had opened its own investigation and that Mr. Kovtun was ill with symptoms of radiation poisoning. He did not answer his telephone.
A third Russian who accompanied Mr. Lugovoi and Mr. Kovtun during their trip to London, Vyacheslav G. Sokolenko, declined in a telephone interview to discuss the new disclosures, saying he could speak only for himself. He said he had been tested and found to have no exposure to radiation.
Comments
They're working on it, apparently. Hang on, I'll get a link.
"If any Russian special services were behind it, it was not a good idea to use this polonium, because they could find its origin," he told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.
I firmly believe that putin's people could have been behind this though. especially when it comes from the dying man himself. and the whole reverse pshy technique too.
Fins - while i realise that in your capacity as the world's leading authority on everything in general - every new shred of information needs qualification by you in case we thought for a second there was a minute shred of detail that you didn't already know - I've realised that this thread is probably 3 pages longer than it should be for precisely this reason.
I would have hoped that it was implicit in my statement that, yes, dissidents do get 'bumped off' as a result of political opposition - but nonetheless they WILL continue regardless of intimidatory tactics. Was it not you who posted Litvenenko's final few words 'The Bastard's got me - but they won't get us all'? There are many ready to step up to the plate and and carry on his work.
As for bilateral trade links - repitition, European federalism - non-entity....
So Fins, we have nothing here but a reiteration of most of what i've already said. But I'll sleep better tonight knowing that you know it too. Honestly, I will.
If your going to entertain any notion of a continuing discussion why make a non-post that will stunt a thread's development?
Narcissism still a problem for you? Its ok. I'll humour you. H
Brevity is the soul of wit. That last post had too many polysyllables.
Yes, dissidents will continue to oppose the government, but they do seem to get bumped off, before they can really challenge the status quo. This is why this British Cobra team needs to do some investigating of its own.
Very droll. But you know I'm right. So at least try entertain a fruitful discussion instead of bluntly attempting to 'educate' people.
When Cobra comes up with anything noteworthy be sure to send me a link. It will probably be the only link to them - because they really don't appear to be doing much at all. Perhaps they need the guiding hand of a private consultancy firm....
The reason why I don't know you're right is because your points aren't clearly expressed.
Cobra has a duty to investigate a radioactive leak on British soil, which has killed one British citizen and hospitalised three more. It's a matter of national security, not an occasion for a Blairite focus group. Even Blair's bully boy Reid knows this:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article2013335.ece
So after professing to maintain a faultless command of contextual observation and so poignantly preserving the brevity of wit - you're so far up your own arse that you don't even notice irony? It was a joke Fins - private consultancy firms have cost the taxpayer nigh on £70bn since 1997....and there is much discontent. In your trawling of newspaper's for tit-bits to educate those shrouded in ignorance have the buzz-words 'delivery partners' not come into view?
Perhaps it was I who made the mistake of joking with a narcissist.
The reason I know your a prick is because you seem to, with stunning consistency, re-iterate - in near enough perfect tone - the inconsistencies and bland prosetylising of The Independent. And to be honest - its pretty boring. Think for yourself man - its far too easy to let someone else do it for you.
Maybe it should have come to your attention, but critical analysis of any information involves acquaintance with the available text. The Independent has led the press, since the Litvinenko case emerged, in delivering info - that's info, never mind comment - out there. I deal with deductive reasoning based on what's prominent in the media.
What other credible source do you suggest? "Thinking for oneself" equates with ignorance, when one claims to want to know what happened but has some irrational aversion to the practices and products of investigative journalism.
Now, a word of advice. It's constructive to engage in debate, and it is fun to lock horns; to be intellectually combative is one of the great pursuits of the mind and one of the pleasures of engaging in any forum. However, if you resort to petty abuse, rather than take on a contrary position cleverly, you inevitably lose any argument. Think of the Monty Python sketch. There's a room for argument, and a room for abuse.
Now, if you disagree with my points, do some research and challenge them via dialectic. I'm genuinely interested to read what you have to offer.
Thats my point - your not interested at all...All your interested in doing is reproducing evidence without any inflection of your own. Sure you need to do research in order to come with any basis for argument and while there is no such thing as objective journalism - there is value in adding your own point of view - based upon the evidence available.
If you think i'm going to rise to your condescending posturing your sadly mistaken. I've met many like you and I'm sure I will continue to come across your ilk in the future. Its vaguely saddening experience for those of us who value constructive discussion. Intellectually locking horns?
How can this be so when you sidestep the point and look to the hills for answers?
Were these people like me, your lecturers, who marked your papers down for straying off the point? Read the details. After Litvinenko died, people on here were clamouring to establish facts. We argued over what information was available, and its meaning. Wordy, vapid and meaningless posts pretending to have some kind of pseudo-sociological and historical context don't aid the main point of inquiry. We're in the dark about the facts, and are vigorously arguing - in my mind, entertainingly so - about how to reach them. Yes, this is a Whodunnit, and people will compete to discount each other's pet theories when something like this happens. That's how A Moving Train works. It's sport.
Report: Dead Former Spy Had Russian Oil Secrets
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,232028,00.html
I see the Conservative Party is now kicking the political fitbah around, now:
Edit: I just tried to offer the longest link, ever... and it wouldn't work. Trying again:
Ah, forget it.
Thanks for the article. Makes some great points covering a lot of the potential motives.
The article however, doesnt take into consideration the arrogance of Putin. I have also thought about the possible suicide scenario but still cant bring myself around to the idea. My only response would be to discredit Putin now before he is out of office in a couple years. Even so, 60 seems like a lot better age to prove a point than at 42.
Keep the updated stories and feeds coming...
While, understandably, not wanting to name names - my source was able to quite clearly demonstrate a relationship of decadence and depravity between the opposing sides. Apparently a Presidential Couple had been staging a Sado-Masochistic Fetish party at an official residence. Invited to the party - Mr Litvenenko apparently, at one stage, saw the Presidential First Lady touching an Iguana in places that an Iguana should never be touched.
Apparently other guests were fully aware of these activiities - but the Litvenenko's, newcomers to the scene, found themselves shocked and ashamed by the whole ordeal.
My source informs me the Litvenenko spat on the carpet and promptly fucked off to London.
4 Weeks ago in Hammersmith he was attacked by 2 burly Russians threatening to 'fuck him sideways' if he didn't keep his mouth shut.
Alex couldn't keep his mouth shut. So he got fucked sideways.
Moral to the story: Eat more vegetables.
Why are you wasting your time posting garbage?
Please don't post in this thread anymore.
Dear Sir,
Perhaps one day, in the future, its relevance not being wholly realisable at this time, you will understand the pertinence of my evidence.
Until that day, I bid you adieu, selah, mahalo, lono...
The Iguana was Asian in origin - should you require further qualification.
Wow how insightful.
I still say shut the fuck up. Keep to the subject and off iguana pussy.
Dear Sir,
If you had even a rudimentary knowledge of Iguana anatomy you would perhaps not make such a bold statement.
As for shutting the fuck up...Well, experience has shown that this is never the righteous path. And I'm all about righteous path's.
As for subject...
Well I'll leave that to you and your friends - as it seems to be replaced on a self-congratulatory basis - not, in fact, on the basis that it will further the discussion.
At present I am concerning myself with Iguana farming...If you're interested in the H.P. product - then do get in contact.
H
yikes!
___________________
The professor in the library with a candlestick. That's my final answer.
_____________________
More seriously, this is obviously a politically motivated murder. Good luck with that!
Putin's people? Wow. Could be.
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Exactly. This is why I was feeling uneasy the other day. The whole thing has "Look mum, Putin's been naughty" written all over it. Yes, he could well have done. He's got reasons and the arrogance. Then again, a lot of other people will probably enjoy Russia being falsely accused. In an earlier post I went as far as to say who know maybe the UK did it. I know, farfetched. But you never know and we may never know. Fact is, that relations with Putin will be strained, even if he didn't do it and everyone else just thinks he did. And there's a lot of gas involved... Who can we believe?
I'm discarding all thought
I'll dry up, leaving puddles on the ground
I'm like an opening band for the sun
http://www.unitednuclear.com/isotopes.htm
Looks like I'll be stocking up on smoke detectors
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/russian_spy_death
Police Evacuate Hotel in Southern England to Test for Radioactivity; Dead Spy's Wife, Friend Test Positive
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,233578,00.html
Why shouldnt the Italian man still be considered a suspect?
I read somewhere today that the polonium has been traced back to a specific plant in Russia. This doesnt prove/disprove anything but certainly adds to the speculation.
Thanks. Nothing new but gives some good background information.
Now you realise why I was posting dickheaded posts, earlier on this thread! This is a great story! Carry on!
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=224905
Hospitalizations in Hamburg Tied to Radiation Trail in London
HAMBURG, Germany, Dec. 11 — Four people who had contact here with a business associate of the former Russian agent Alexander V. Litvinenko were hospitalized Monday, on suspicion they had been contaminated by polonium 210.
The business associate, Dmitri V. Kovtun, spent four days in Hamburg in October before flying to London, where he met with Mr. Litvinenko on Nov. 1, the day Mr. Litvinenko became ill from the radiation poisoning that killed him three weeks later.
While in Hamburg, Mr. Kovtun slept for two nights in the apartment of his former wife. The police said they had detected radioactive traces on a child’s car seat and in two bedrooms, suggesting that the ex-wife, Marina, her two children and her boyfriend had been contaminated.
The four people in the apartment were not showing signs of radiation sickness, according to a police spokeswoman, Ulrike Sweden, and it will take a few days of tests to determine whether they ingested the substance. She said there was no public health danger.
The police confirmed Monday that evidence of polonium was found on a seat in a BMW that met Mr. Kovtun at the Hamburg airport on Oct. 28. There were also traces in a second car he had used.
Mr. Kovtun spread a wide trail of radiation during his brief stopover in this northern German port city. His movements here have become central to solving Mr. Litvinenko’s death.
German prosecutors have begun a criminal investigation of Mr. Kovtun, who is reported to be in a hospital in Moscow, saying there was evidence that he might have illegally handled the polonium 210. He could also, however, have left traces of it after being contaminated himself, the police said.
The Hamburg police are pressing the Russian authorities for details on Mr. Kovtun’s health, with conflicting reports suggesting that he was in a coma, seriously ill or not outwardly ill at all.
Germany’s deepening entanglement in the case could strain relations between Berlin and Moscow, which are close but have changed in tone under a new German chancellor, Angela Merkel.
In an interview scheduled to be broadcast on German television Monday night, Mrs. Merkel said of the deaths of Mr. Litvinenko and a journalist, Anna Politkovskaya, “It is not a good sign; it needs to change.”
She called on the Russian authorities to investigate both deaths aggressively, and said President Vladimir V. Putin had assured her that they would. Ms. Sweden, however, said Russian officials still had not answered questions from the Hamburg police about Mr. Kovtun.
British officials have complained that Russia is hampering their investigation of Mr. Litvinenko’s death. On Monday, the Russian prosecutor general, Yuri Y. Chaika, met with Britain’s ambassador to Moscow, Anthony Brenton, to discuss the case.
Mr. Kovtun, a 41-year-old Russian, was a student in the 1980s at the Supreme Soviet Higher Military Command School, many of whose students went on to serve in the K.G.B.
If, as the Germans suspect, Mr. Kovtun handled polonium, it would raise the question of how it got to Germany. According to officials here, he flew from Moscow to Hamburg on Oct. 28 aboard an Aeroflot flight. Aeroflot’s deputy chief spokesman, Viktor F. Sokolov, said no requests had been made to examine any of the company’s aircraft.
He said that all Aeroflot planes arriving at the Moscow airport operated by the airline Sheremetyevo were routinely inspected and that none had shown signs of radiation. Authorities also found no traces in a Germanwings plane that Mr. Kovtun took to London on Nov. 1.
In the Hamburg neighborhood where Mr. Kovtun once lived, radiation specialists went in and out of his ex-wife’s apartment building, hauling luggage, steel cases and objects in sealed plastic bags.
In Russia, no officials commented publicly on the disclosures involving Mr. Kovtun. But Russia’s ambassador to Germany, Vladimir V. Kotenev, rejected claims that his county was not cooperating. “We also have an interest in finding out the truth,” he said on German television.
Russian and British investigators did begin interviewing Andrei K. Lugovoi, who along with Mr. Kovtun, met with Mr. Litvinenko on Nov. 1 in London. An aide to Mr. Lugovoi, reached by telephone, declined to discuss the meeting, but confirmed remarks that he had made to Russian news agencies.
“I was giving evidence purely as a witness,” he said, according to Itar-Tass. He added that the meeting lasted a little longer than three hours and that he “gave exhaustive answers to all the questions.”
Investigators from Russia and Britain also interviewed Mr. Kovtun over three days last week. Afterward, the prosecutor general announced that it had opened its own investigation and that Mr. Kovtun was ill with symptoms of radiation poisoning. He did not answer his telephone.
A third Russian who accompanied Mr. Lugovoi and Mr. Kovtun during their trip to London, Vyacheslav G. Sokolenko, declined in a telephone interview to discuss the new disclosures, saying he could speak only for himself. He said he had been tested and found to have no exposure to radiation.