Why aren't more environmentalists vegetarians?

polaris

onelongsong wrote:

another thought;

wouldn't the diesel burning tractors used to cultivate the land produce a bigger footprint than the animals?

i think the main problem with cattle is that they (unlike sheep) eat grasses all the way to the roots ... the grass then has to be replanted somehow ... so, as soon as a square foot of grass has been eaten - they gotta go somewhere else ... whereas (assuming growing conditions are good), a plant will continue to grow in the same spot producing food year in and year out ...

onelongsong

polaris wrote:

i think the main problem with cattle is that they (unlike sheep) eat grasses all the way to the roots ... the grass then has to be replanted somehow ... so, as soon as a square foot of grass has been eaten - they gotta go somewhere else ... whereas (assuming growing conditions are good), a plant will continue to grow in the same spot producing food year in and year out ...

you've got that backwards. cattle don't have top teeth so the grass is left to grow. sheep on the other hand; have top and bottom teeth and will pull the plant up; root and all. that's what caused the war between the cattlemen and sheep herders.

onelongsong

polaris wrote:

i think the main problem with cattle is that they (unlike sheep) eat grasses all the way to the roots ... the grass then has to be replanted somehow ... so, as soon as a square foot of grass has been eaten - they gotta go somewhere else ... whereas (assuming growing conditions are good), a plant will continue to grow in the same spot producing food year in and year out ...

a plant won't continue to grow without food. animal waste replenishes the soil whereas chemical fertilizers kill off beneficial organisms and destroy the soil and the aquafir. but either way; tractors are used to fertilize and cultivate the plants.

polaris

onelongsong wrote:

you've got that backwards. cattle don't have top teeth so the grass is left to grow. sheep on the other hand; have top and bottom teeth and will pull the plant up; root and all. that's what caused the war between the cattlemen and sheep herders.

it is my understanding that cattle, unlike elk or deer, are stagnant foragers - meaning they haven't evolved enuf to know that once they eat everything - it won't come back ... cattle will graze in one spot until everything that is edible is eaten ...

sourdough

onelongsong wrote:

why wasn't the enviornment being destroyed before the europeans came to america? if you think about; there were tens of thousands of buffalo roaming the country. add in all the deer; elk; moose and other animals; and the actual animal population is about the same. since elk; moose; and buffalo are larger than cattle; we're close pound for pound.
the difference is that there was a balance and man disrupted this balance. if animals are having a negative impact on the enviornment; it's because man did something to cause that situation. don't blame the animals.

I think you misunderstood me. I am not blaming the animals, I'm blaming the methods in which we produce livestock. The way we produce livestock is unsustainable. The difference before Europeans was that animals lived in their natural habitat so there was biological diversity within the ranges where animals roamed. Now we have fenced in areas and farms where where the natural world is largely excluded including vegetation and other animals that play important ecological roles. For example, an astonishing amount of tropical rainforest is cut down everyday for cattle production. This is a poor production method.

onelongsong

polaris wrote:

it is my understanding that cattle, unlike elk or deer, are stagnant foragers - meaning they haven't evolved enuf to know that once they eat everything - it won't come back ... cattle will graze in one spot until everything that is edible is eaten ...

i've been in the cattle business for 51 years and i've never seen or heard anything like that. cattle walk as they eat. then rest while they chew their "cud". i've never seen any cattle or buffalo stand in one place and eat unless it was confined. in the time it took to write this; my buffalo have traveled almost 1/2 mile while grazing.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Urban Hiker wrote:

It's okay, hemp has me covered. http://nutiva.com/

---

Environmentally, it's make much more sense to me to eat straight from the source. Go Veggies!!!!

http://www.petaliterature.com/images/300-VEG200.jpg

Haha...

I'd bet dollars to donuts you're missing out on some pretty critical aminos though.

Whey is king. It turbo charges the immune system. Next on the list is eggs in terms of biological quality. Then comes meat, fish, soy etc...and onwards down the list.

I'm a big fan of micellar casein because I work out. It's a slow burn protein from egg sources. You need to take in protein approx every three hours, or your body starts burning muscle tissue for energy. If you work out and don't maintain protein levels you're just burning off all the hard work in the gym (if you're in for size and bulking up that is). Everyone should train for muscle mass. The more you have of it, the leaner (and healthier) you'll be.

Also why it's important to eat 5-6 small meals throughout the day.

Best case scenario? Combine whey with micellar casein. Solid nutrition.

.

halv

A book everyone should read is "Mad Cowboy" by Howard Lyman. He's a former cattle rancher. Ran a huge multi-million dollar feedlot. He gave it all up, is now a vegan, and advocates for organic produce farming. If you want a first hand account from someone who made millions in the meat industry, read this book. He was the guy on the show with Oprah when she said she would never eat another hamburger and got sued by the Texas cattlemen.

lucylespian

prism wrote:

bullshit. show me some of these studies that prove that any of what your saying is true. (and make-believe studies financed by the meat industry don't count)

cause what i've heard directly from three different nutritionist with degrees from the University of Washington has been totally opposite of what you claim above

Actual studies on this are very recent. Until now, nutritionists just bagged high protein diets without actually studying them. Ojjective studies show the Atkin's diet is the best for reducing lipids AND losing weight.
Haven't got refernces, I read stuff and pick out the good bits, buit memorising references is a waste of my brain.
BTW, last time I measured my chol it was 3.3, I eat red meat every day.

sicnevol

Meat is tasty, you are built to eat meat. thats why you have those nifty pointy teeth.... Meat is good.

Its the meat industry I have a problem with. I raise my own meat, and I hunt. Usally WON'T buy meat at a store. I don't know what it ate, how it was killed, who injected what into it.

We mostly hunt deer, and also we buy some meat from local sources, like the next door neighbor.

JaneNY wrote:

Maybe the ones you know didn't know how to do it properly. I know plenty of people from India, who have never had a taste of meat ever, and never want to. For Hindus its against their religion.
http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/hinmeat.html

edit - I see there are other articles that say its not against their religion; however I still know many Hindus who say it is.

cow is against there religion, meat isn't. They can't have a hambuger but they could have pork-chops....

prism

lucylespian wrote:

Actual studies on this are very recent. Until now, nutritionists just bagged high protein diets without actually studying them. Ojjective studies show the Atkin's diet is the best for reducing lipids AND losing weight.
Haven't got refernces, I read stuff and pick out the good bits, buit memorising references is a waste of my brain.
BTW, last time I measured my chol it was 3.3, I eat red meat every day.

I could call two of those nutritionist in the morning and asked them why they haven't studied that of which they have degrees in and the field in which they practice (and also have to take continue studying in order to retain their jobs) but i'm pretty sure that they'd they tell me quit being ridiculuous

from what i've been told and read hdl levels are statistically pretty equal among vegetarians and meateaters. while ldl levels are statistically lower among vegetarians...making for much less atherosclerosis and the resulting heart attacks from it among vegetarians compared to meateaters.

I know a nephrologist that says the the Atkin's Diet put his three kids through college and will also put all his grandkids (as yet unborn) through college as well....it's been very, very good for business




also http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f02/web1/kbailey.html it explains how most of the initial weight loss from the Atkin's Diet isn't from the body losing fat but is actually caused by dehydration from ketosis.

sicnevol

prism wrote:

I could call two of those nutritionist in the morning and asked them why they haven't studied that of which they have degrees in and the field in which they practice (and also have to take continue studying in order to retain their jobs) but i'm pretty sure that they'd they tell me quit being ridiculuous

from what i've been told and read hdl levels are statistically pretty equal among vegetarians and meateaters. while ldl levels are statistically lower among vegetarians...making for much less atherosclerosis and the resulting heart attacks from it among vegetarians compared to meateaters.

I know a nephrologist that says the the Atkin's Diet put his three kids through college and will also put all his grandkids (as yet unborn) through college as well....it's been very, very good for business




also http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f02/web1/kbailey.html it explains how most of the initial weight loss from the Atkin's Diet isn't from the body losing fat but is actually caused by dehydration from ketosis.

Not to be an asshole, but I have congestive heart faliure, and several heart defects along with an arrthyma. All of the doctors I have ever seen have told me to contuine eating meat. My older brother has a masters in Biometrics and exercise science and he also tells me to eat meat. i need the extra protien and calories to help me survive an SVT. Which I have often.

The akins diet put his kids through school because people are stupid and assume that a bacon sandwich is good for them if they are on akins. they don't understansd that they need to eat lean meat. people on akins order a cheesburger with everything except the bun and go "wow look how healthy I am!" The meat isn't the problem its the lack of brains in the eater. extremism in any form is bad. have you had anyone tell you that you should eat only meat. monderation in everything is key....

PPS Were you aware that you can overdose on minerals and vitimans?
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/yf/foods/he158w.htm

everything is bad if you over do it. Dark Leafy greens can cause liver failure!

prism

sicnevol wrote:

Not to be an asshole, but I have congestive heart faliure, and several heart defects along with an arrthyma. All of the doctors I have ever seen have told me to contuine eating meat. My older brother has a masters in Biometrics and exercise science and he also tells me to eat meat. i need the extra protien and calories to help me survive an SVT. Which I have often.

The akins diet put his kids through school because people are stupid and assume that a bacon sandwich is good for them if they are on akins. they don't understansd that they need to eat lean meat. people on akins order a cheesburger with everything except the bun and go "wow look how healthy I am!" The meat isn't the problem its the lack of brains in the eater. extremism in any form is bad. have you had anyone tell you that you should eat only meat. monderation in everything is key....

PPS Were you aware that you can overdose on minerals and vitimans?
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/yf/foods/he158w.htm

everything is bad if you over do it. Dark Leafy greens can cause liver failure!

yes given your circumstances contining to eat meat would make sense for you because you need the added protein

as for most other people there's health benefits from eating a vegetarian diet because of the decreased ldl cholesterol levels


it's an individual thing

sicnevol

prism wrote:

yes given your circumstances contining to eat meat would make sense for you because you need the added protein

as for most other people there's health benefits from eating a vegetarian diet because of the decreased ldl cholesterol levels


it's an individual thing

with my heart failure, I would need lower LDL. And I do Indeed have lower LDL, because i eat lean meat.

catefrances

onelongsong wrote:

humans are really carnivores.

i don't care. meat just grosses me out. i cant even touch it with my hands.

polaris

onelongsong wrote:

i've been in the cattle business for 51 years and i've never seen or heard anything like that. cattle walk as they eat. then rest while they chew their "cud". i've never seen any cattle or buffalo stand in one place and eat unless it was confined. in the time it took to write this; my buffalo have traveled almost 1/2 mile while grazing.

but buffalo are like elk and deer ... they are natural foragers ... cows are not

halv

A couple of facts about meat production:

1) Of all agricultural land in the United States, nearly 80
percent is used to raise animals for food. More than 260
million acres of U.S. forest have been cleared to create
cropland to grow grain to feed farmed animals. Twenty times
more land is required to feed a meat-eater than to feed a
pure vegetarian.

2) The meat industry causes more water pollution in
the United States than all other industries combined because
animals raised for food produce 130 times more excrement
than the entire human population does—86,000 pounds per
second. A typical pig factory farm generates a quantity of raw
waste equal to that of a city of 50,000 people, but without the
sewage system.

3) Raising animals for food consumes nearly half the
water used in the United States. It takes 2,500 gallons of water
to produce a pound of beef, but only 25 gallons to produce a
pound of wheat.

4) Energy: Raising animals for food requires more than onethird
of all the raw materials and fossil fuels used in the
United States.

Two arguments that I always find odd is 1) we have canine teeth and 2) meat is healthy for you and needed for protein.

Our teeth are nothing like true carnivore animals teeth. Humans have four mildly pointy teeth. If it wasn't for a knife we'd have a pretty hard time ripping into the side of a dead animal with our mouths. Not to mention that our intestinal track is about 4 times longer than other true carnivores.

Of course meat has some health benefits. No ones saying it doesn't. But it also has high fat and cholesterol and is linked to various health problems like cancer, high blood pressure, heart problems, etc etc. There's a reason you never here doctors tell people to eat their vegetables and beans in moderation.
You can get all the protein and nutrition you need from a veggie diet. It's such a myth that you can't.
Here's an article about vegan athetletes like Carl Lewis talking about vegan nutrition which includes this quote from a doctor who trains Olympic-calibre atheletes: "Every nutrient known to be essential for human health is available, in proper concentration, in plant foods. This is not so with animal-based foods, as there are many essential nutrients totally absent in them."
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=26480

Riverrunner

halv wrote:

A couple of facts about meat production:

1) Of all agricultural land in the United States, nearly 80
percent is used to raise animals for food. More than 260
million acres of U.S. forest have been cleared to create
cropland to grow grain to feed farmed animals. Twenty times
more land is required to feed a meat-eater than to feed a
pure vegetarian.

2) The meat industry causes more water pollution in
the United States than all other industries combined because
animals raised for food produce 130 times more excrement
than the entire human population does—86,000 pounds per
second. A typical pig factory farm generates a quantity of raw
waste equal to that of a city of 50,000 people, but without the
sewage system.

3) Raising animals for food consumes nearly half the
water used in the United States. It takes 2,500 gallons of water
to produce a pound of beef, but only 25 gallons to produce a
pound of wheat.

4) Energy: Raising animals for food requires more than onethird
of all the raw materials and fossil fuels used in the
United States.

Two arguments that I always find odd is 1) we have canine teeth and 2) meat is healthy for you and needed for protein.

Our teeth are nothing like true carnivore animals teeth. Humans have four mildly pointy teeth. If it wasn't for a knife we'd have a pretty hard time ripping into the side of a dead animal with our mouths. Not to mention that our intestinal track is about 4 times longer than other true carnivores.

Of course meat has some health benefits. No ones saying it doesn't. But it also has high fat and cholesterol and is linked to various health problems like cancer, high blood pressure, heart problems, etc etc. There's a reason you never here doctors tell people to eat their vegetables and beans in moderation.
You can get all the protein and nutrition you need from a veggie diet. It's such a myth that you can't.
Here's an article about vegan athetletes like Carl Lewis talking about vegan nutrition which includes this quote from a doctor who trains Olympic-calibre atheletes: "Every nutrient known to be essential for human health is available, in proper concentration, in plant foods. This is not so with animal-based foods, as there are many essential nutrients totally absent in them."
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=26480

Everything I wanted to say, but you said it so much better than I could have.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

I would be interested to see a body builder get into the 1.5 - 2 grams or protein per lb of bodyweight eating from plant sources. That's a serious shitload of beans to eat every day. What exactly is the formula or combination for complete branch chain amino's via plant sources? the article didn't mention it.

Riverrunner

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I would be interested to see a body builder get into the 1.5 - 2 grams or protein per lb of bodyweight eating from plant sources. That's a serious shitload of beans to eat every day. What exactly is the formula or combination for complete branch chain amino's via plant sources? the article didn't mention it.

I am not an expert by any means, but as an age grouper triathlete I read a lot about nutrition in the magazines, the web, etc. The problem is not protein. Beans have a lot of protein and you wouldn't have to eat a ton to get your protein, plus there are lots of other high quality sources of protein, including nuts, peanut butter, soy products, etc.

From what I have read, the nutritional element that may be missing from a pure vegan diet is vitamin B12. Thus, it is advised that vegans and vegetarians that don't eat much dairy to take a vitamin b supplement daily.