the morality of believers

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

"an individual interacts with their brain"?

How so? How is a person not their brain? See, I detest that anyone would influence policy based on this assumption.

Is your eye your brain? No. Is your leg your brain? No. Are your fingers your brain? No. Is your blood your brain? No. We are not just a brain. We have all aspects of who we are, interacting with the environment: seeing, walking, touching, smelling, in interaction with the brain. AND with the environment.

Your assumption that all starts in the brain is the flaw here. When I touch my keyboard, and there is a response in the brain, it originated with the touch of the keyboard. It is bi-directional, and interactive. There was not a part of Jeffrey Dahmer that was in another room while he killed people. It was an interactive, inter-dependent issue, from within and from without.

Flannel Shirt

catefrances wrote:

i started this thread cause i didn't want to hijack the atheist morality thread.

it saddens me greatly that people who believe in a God think that because one does not, that it is somehow a flaw on the part of the disbeliever. and that because they dont answer to a higher power that the atheist has no morality.
so i ask you all, do believers have morals? what shapes these morals, if applicable and what makes those believers think that they, as believers, have a monopoly of such behaviour. must one believe in a higher power in order to have morals? why?

I have this same "discussion" all the time with family and friends.

I do what is "right" because its "truth". Not because a "prophet" said I should with the reward of heaven.

vmfury

Cosmo wrote:

...
Well... I for one... believe in a higher source. I'll call Him 'God', for lack of a better name. I believe He is the life that's in me... and in every other living thing... from single celled critters to cats and dogs and hamsters to grass and trees and marijuana to you and me.
I don't believe He gave me my humanity. I will take credit for that myself. He just put me here on this road of life... it is up to me to decide where to go. I proclaim all of my deeds... good and bad... in my name only. I'm not passing on blame for my actions and decisions to Satan or giving credit to God... it's all of my own doing. God understands me... loves me and does not judge me. He accepts me for who I am and what i do... even if I make poor choices now and again. This is why I do not fear Him... He is not out there to punish me... just love me.

Cosmo....you're AWESOME.

Cosmo

vmfury wrote:

Cosmo....you're AWESOME.

...
Thanx... I just call it as I see it.
Which is why I don't get behind any of these gigantic organized religions. I believe the Christian God, the Jewish God, The Muslim God and the Spritualist's Nature is all one in the same. The way I see it... the problems arise when each religion claims the One God as their own... and thus, proclaim THEIR road is the only road that leads them to Him and nullifying the other religions. I believe they ALL lead to Him... as long as you are looking for Him. This goes for Atheists, too. as long as someone believes in something... be it Natural Order to Truth ot Honesty... he or she will eventually find it.
If you don't believe in God... it doesn't mean you don't believe in anything. Do you believe in the Human Spirit? Destiny? Truth? Love? Yourself? Something... anything to believe in and give you hope. That's a good thing and I do not believe that any religion has exclusive rights on hope.
I don't believe that God is sitting there, waiting for us to die so He can judge us about our lives here on Earth. Maybe if we all judged ourselves and held ourselves accountable for all of our actions, we wouldn't have to worry about Judgement Day. Personally... I think we would be better served by just loving God, rather than fearing Him.

catefrances

chopitdown wrote:

is that from a catholic perspective?

as far as i know. though i dont know if it extends to the other cults of christianity

hsewif

My neighbors are VERY spiritual. Christians to the core. Their seasonal flags have bible passage numbers on them and sayings like "Lord of the Harvest" for fall. Last Halloween, they gave out huge candy bars with a paper around them... something about the movie "Finding Nemo" really being about finding Christ.

They are pleasant people that always say hello. THey don't drink, smoke or do drugs. They have visitors alllll the time (when she had a baby, the company was nonstop for a month)... when something breaks around the house, they call someone from their church and it gets fixed (for free, of course). We have never heard anyone yelling. Their pre-teen son used to get picked on when they first moved in because he was home-schooled for a while when his baby brother was born. I see him with a group of boys so it looks like he found a nook to fit in.

It seems like a great lifestyle overall. If they are right and I am wrong, they are absolutely going to heaven. I will burn for eternity.

The only 'weird' thing about them is this...

their son was selling boyscout stuff and when he rang our doorbell, it was raining sideways. My husband told him to come in and he said that he couldn't, it was against the rules (which it is). My husband said something like "well the neighbor rule is to get you out of the rain!" and the kid just stood there in the doorway.

anyway...to answer your question... I'm sure my neighbors think the worst about us. Their morals are shaped out of fear of the afterlife and that's something I don't believe in. We have never had a conversation on the topic but I'm pretty sure they think that we're going to hell for a number of reasons. In their eyes, Heaven is the goal and they do whatever they can to assure themselves a place there. They follow the rules of their church...almost anally. If you don't feel the same, you're not going. Period.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Is your eye your brain? No. Is your leg your brain? No. Are your fingers your brain? No. Is your blood your brain? No. We are not just a brain. We have all aspects of who we are, interacting with the environment: seeing, walking, touching, smelling, in interaction with the brain. AND with the environment.

Your assumption that all starts in the brain is the flaw here. When I touch my keyboard, and there is a response in the brain, it originated with the touch of the keyboard. It is bi-directional, and interactive. There was not a part of Jeffrey Dahmer that was in another room while he killed people. It was an interactive, inter-dependent issue, from within and from without.

Seeing is primarily done in the visual striate cortex (V1).
"You do not see with your eyes, you see with your brain."
Neuroscientist Christof Koch

Watch Christof Koch's The Quest for Consciousness
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4317251159318118415

You don't feel with your finger tips, you feel with your brain. As per Neuroscientist V.S. Ramachandran, if a person has a phantom hand, blind-folding them and touching parts of their face can give them the impression you are touching their phantom hand. This is because of how the body is mapped in the brain's

Watch Helen Fischer, V.S. Ramachandran and Pat and Paul Churchland here.
http://thesciencenetwork.org/

Simple brain-body map on the cortex
http://www.brainconnection.com/med/medart/l/homunculus.jpg

But, besides those minor details, you implied that a person interacts with their brain. But you describe how their brain interacts with the outside world. So maybe it is what you meant?

Gary Carter

hsewif wrote:

My neighbors are VERY spiritual. Christians to the core. Their seasonal flags have bible passage numbers on them and sayings like "Lord of the Harvest" for fall. Last Halloween, they gave out huge candy bars with a paper around them... something about the movie "Finding Nemo" really being about finding Christ.

They are pleasant people that always say hello. THey don't drink, smoke or do drugs. They have visitors alllll the time (when she had a baby, the company was nonstop for a month)... when something breaks around the house, they call someone from their church and it gets fixed (for free, of course). We have never heard anyone yelling. Their pre-teen son used to get picked on when they first moved in because he was home-schooled for a while when his baby brother was born. I see him with a group of boys so it looks like he found a nook to fit in.

It seems like a great lifestyle overall. If they are right and I am wrong, they are absolutely going to heaven. I will burn for eternity.

The only 'weird' thing about them is this...

their son was selling boyscout stuff and when he rang our doorbell, it was raining sideways. My husband told him to come in and he said that he couldn't, it was against the rules (which it is). My husband said something like "well the neighbor rule is to get you out of the rain!" and the kid just stood there in the doorway.

anyway...to answer your question... I'm sure my neighbors think the worst about us. Their morals are shaped out of fear of the afterlife and that's something I don't believe in. We have never had a conversation on the topic but I'm pretty sure they think that we're going to hell for a number of reasons. In their eyes, Heaven is the goal and they do whatever they can to assure themselves a place there. They follow the rules of their church...almost anally. If you don't feel the same, you're not going. Period

cool story. i say to each is there own and just cause one person has morals cause there catholic doesnt mean there bad and same goes for atheist. as long as people are nice and respect each other isnt that what really matters

hsewif

Ahnimus wrote:

Seeing is primarily done in the visual striate cortex (V1).
"You do not see with your eyes, you see with your brain."
Neuroscientist Christof Koch

Watch Christof Koch's The Quest for Consciousness
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4317251159318118415

You don't feel with your finger tips, you feel with your brain. As per Neuroscientist V.S. Ramachandran, if a person has a phantom hand, blind-folding them and touching parts of their face can give them the impression you are touching their phantom hand. This is because of how the body is mapped in the brain's

Watch Helen Fischer, V.S. Ramachandran and Pat and Paul Churchland here.
http://thesciencenetwork.org/

Simple brain-body map on the cortex
http://www.brainconnection.com/med/medart/l/homunculus.jpg

But, besides those minor details, you implied that a person interacts with their brain. But you describe how their brain interacts with the outside world. So maybe it is what you meant?

I didn't look at any of your links and I haven't read this whole thread but I do FIRMLY believe that everything happens through your brain.

Every single experience, no matter how large or small, from birth to present, shapes each and every one of us.

If you're not talking about that here, I apologize. Carry on.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Seeing is primarily done in the visual striate cortex (V1).
"You do not see with your eyes, you see with your brain."
Neuroscientist Christof Koch

Watch Christof Koch's The Quest for Consciousness
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4317251159318118415

You don't feel with your finger tips, you feel with your brain. As per Neuroscientist V.S. Ramachandran, if a person has a phantom hand, blind-folding them and touching parts of their face can give them the impression you are touching their phantom hand. This is because of how the body is mapped in the brain's

Watch Helen Fischer, V.S. Ramachandran and Pat and Paul Churchland here.
http://thesciencenetwork.org/

Simple brain-body map on the cortex
http://www.brainconnection.com/med/medart/l/homunculus.jpg

But, besides those minor details, you implied that a person interacts with their brain. But you describe how their brain interacts with the outside world. So maybe it is what you meant?

We are vast interconnected systems. Nothing you've said here detracts from that.

Jeffrey Dahmer was not a brain walking around killing people. In order to be realistic, the human being must be appreciated for who he was as a whole.

As for the last sentence...of course a person interacts with their brain, while also being their brain. The brain is not the sum total of the person! Obviously the brain and the entire system interact.

Ahnimus

hsewif wrote:

I didn't look at any of your links and I haven't read this whole thread but I do FIRMLY believe that everything happens through your brain.

Every single experience, no matter how large or small, from birth to present, shapes each and every one of us.

If you're not talking about that here, I apologize. Carry on.

That's not really what the topic is. It was a side note to Angelica about the person being the brain. I'm glad you believe this way (determinism).

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

We are vast interconnected systems. Nothing you've said here detracts from that.

Jeffrey Dahmer was not a brain walking around killing people. In order to be realistic, the human being must be appreciated for who he was as a whole.

As for the last sentence...of course a person interacts with their brain, while also being their brain. The brain is not the sum total of the person! Obviously the brain and the entire system interact.

Ok. The body is controlled by the brain. The body doesn't act by it's self. Even with metabolism the pancreas sends hormones to the adipose tissue and the adipose tissue communicates with the brain and the brain communicates with the muscle tissue. For example, the brain sends PPAR-Delta hormones to the muscle tissue to tell it to consume adipose tissue. The body is just a body, the brain controls everything. There is a system in the stomach, but I would consider that an extension of the nervous system. I'm not sure that their is any decision making of any significance happening in the gut. The brain is the main thing anyway. As far as decision making goes, I don't see what the advantage is to considering a foot. Since the foot only accepts commands from the brain.

hsewif

metsfan531941 wrote:

cool story. i say to each is there own and just cause one person has morals cause there catholic doesnt mean there bad and same goes for atheist. as long as people are nice and respect each other isnt that what really matters

I think the same... to each their own. Some people think they're weird but they're very nice and pleasant. Always a smile on their faces and never an unpleasant word about anything. They leave us alone (they don't try to convert us) and they are always willing to lend a hand. (we'll get your mail and water your flowers while you're gone).

I can see why people follow their religion, it seems to work for them. On the outside, they seem truly happy. As I said earlier... maybe they're right, maybe they're not. Either way, the path that they've chosen has given them a full and seemingly happy life... nothing wrong with that.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Ok. The body is controlled by the brain. The body doesn't act by it's self. Even with metabolism the pancreas sends hormones to the adipose tissue and the adipose tissue communicates with the brain and the brain communicates with the muscle tissue. For example, the brain sends PPAR-Delta hormones to the muscle tissue to tell it to consume adipose tissue. The body is just a body, the brain controls everything. There is a system in the stomach, but I would consider that an extension of the nervous system. I'm not sure that their is any decision making of any significance happening in the gut. The brain is the main thing anyway. As far as decision making goes, I don't see what the advantage is to considering a foot. Since the foot only accepts commands from the brain.

A few things leap out at me, here. First, the fundamental difference is that you see the body/brain connection in terms of a hierarchy--of a control/dominance situation of one over another which reflects our patriarchical social systems at this time. I see the brain/body as a system, working interactively in harmony as a whole. Such differences and views stem from individual intepretation and worldview.

These differences are again highlighted whereupon you see things in terms of cause and effect over time, whereas I see them as parts of a whole working in synchronization at any given moment.

Your view apparently allows a gap between the brain and Jeffrey Dahmer himself, where it seems you place responsibility on the brain, and minimize the impact of the totality of the system--of the man. I see it very much otherwise. I see that you cannot remove the brain from the man, or from the totality of the system names Jeffrey.

hsewif

nevermind. I just read your previous post. You believe in different connections between body and mind.

Gary Carter

hsewif wrote:

I think the same... to each their own. Some people think they're weird but they're very nice and pleasant. Always a smile on their faces and never an unpleasant word about anything. They leave us alone (they don't try to convert us) and they are always willing to lend a hand. (we'll get your mail and water your flowers while you're gone).

I can see why people follow their religion, it seems to work for them. On the outside, they seem truly happy. As I said earlier... maybe they're right, maybe they're not. Either way, the path that they've chosen has given them a full and seemingly happy life... nothing wrong with that.

agreed, religion worked for me during my teen years and helped me out alot.

hsewif

angelica wrote:

I see the brain/body as a system, working interactively in harmony as a whole.

this is interesting. You see the 2 working together.

If your body needs food/fuel, it sends out signals that it's hungry. Your brain then thinks "I'm hungry".

On the other hand. When your body sends out that hunger signal, why doesn't your brain say "I have to pee."?

angelica

hsewif wrote:

this is interesting. You see the 2 working together.

If your body needs food/fuel, it sends out signals that it's hungry. Your brain then thinks "I'm hungry".

On the other hand. When your body sends out that hunger signal, why doesn't your brain say "I have to pee."?

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, here. Could you please elaborate?

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Seeing is primarily done in the visual striate cortex (V1).
"You do not see with your eyes, you see with your brain."
Neuroscientist Christof Koch]

http://www.mdfoundation.com.au/page344521.aspx
"Our visual system is composed of two basic parts - The Eye and The Brain...

Brain - The brain interprets the image received from the eye. You do not see with your eyes, you see with your brain. The two eyes work together gathering information. One eye can lose vision without being noticed.If both eyes are damaged, the brain will often make up its own images as it tries to make sense of the damaged image it receives. This process is called 'phantom vision'."




There are clearly two aspects--according to this article (and according to what is obvious) the eye has numerous functions...if it did not have functions, it would not exist. The eyes work with the brain. As for all aspects of our body. This is why we have bodies and are not just brains "walking" around. This is why Jeffrey Dahmer was an entire vast interconnected system and not just a brain. This system was called "Jeffrey Dahmer".

catefrances

angelica wrote:

A few things leap out at me, here. First, the fundamental difference is that you see the body/brain connection in terms of a hierarchy--of a control/dominance situation of one over another which reflects our patriarchical social systems at this time. I see the brain/body as a system, working interactively in harmony as a whole. Such differences and views stem from individual intepretation and worldview.

These differences are again highlighted whereupon you see things in terms of cause and effect over time, whereas I see them as parts of a whole working in synchronization at any given moment.

hmm angelica i find your statements interesting. personally i see the brain as it. the pinnacle of our existence. if a part of the brain is damaged, the part of the body it is responsible for dies or is damaged as well.

but then i think that if it were not for the heart pumping blood to the brain, then the brain would die. but is that the brain telling the heart to pump the blood in the first place or....? it would seem a symbiotic relationship, no?

angelica wrote:

Your view apparently allows a gap between the brain and Jeffrey Dahmer himself, where it seems you place responsibility on the brain, and minimize the impact of the totality of the system--of the man. I see it very much otherwise.

i dont understand what you're saying here. please help me to.