the morality of believers

catefrances

i started this thread cause i didn't want to hijack the atheist morality thread.

it saddens me greatly that people who believe in a God think that because one does not, that it is somehow a flaw on the part of the disbeliever. and that because they dont answer to a higher power that the atheist has no morality.
so i ask you all, do believers have morals? what shapes these morals, if applicable and what makes those believers think that they, as believers, have a monopoly of such behaviour. must one believe in a higher power in order to have morals? why?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Believers have the highest morals of all...

just ask one...

crittables

catefrances wrote:

must one believe in a higher power in order to have morals? why?

i don't think so. i think we are all born with a basic understanding of right and wrong, good and bad. it's just a matter of do we want to adhere to these basics or not.

Ahnimus

Hehe, sorry, had to post here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aslZN4A6D8I

ContraAmerica

Maybe in the small window of American attention there is a false belief that religious people have better morals than Atheists. If you look at the world-wide actions of religious groups it doesn't in any way reflect the image of a moral man. The tendancy of religion is to bend the rules. Make murder acceptable in certain situations. It is a sin to murder, unless you're fighting for your country. It is a sin to commit suicide, unless you're blowing yourself up in a crowded bus terminal in the name of allah. Its how the press explains the actions of Al Queda; insisting that they are not muslims but radical muslims, tweaking the beliefs of Islam to protray a holy war against the Christians. This is why humanity is doomed from the start. We all think we're right, and think that most of everyone else is wrong.

"The greatest crimes in the world are not committed by people breaking the rules but by people following the rules. It's people who follow orders that drop bombs and massacre villages."
-Banksy

Ahnimus

Morals are learned through societal conditioning and religion is irrelevant.

Smellyman2

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg




so true...

Cosmo

Do people who do good things for other people and don't believe in God... do good things because why... just because they are good things to do?
...
Do people who do good things for other people and DO believe in God... do good things because they believe God is watching and they will be rewarded with a trip to Heaven?
...
It would seem to me that the person who does good deeds... and expects no rewards... has no conditions (trip to Heaven) tied to their deeds... well, they sound a bit more sincere to me than the person who does good because they want that trip to Heaven. I think you should do good things... whether God is watching or not.
...
But, that's just me.

bayleaf

Ahnimus wrote:

Morals are learned through societal conditioning and religion is irrelevant.

Perhaps yes, but religion has a large impact on what society deems as right and wrong. Look at the laws of a country, how many are derived from religious ideas, look at the ten commandments, not stealing, not killing. To suggest that anything in society can be completley removed from religion as you are doing is arguabley wrong, religion is such an engrained institution within society.

In short, yes morals are learnt through societal conditioning but religion plays a large roll in the history and development of society so you therefore cannot seperate the two as you are.

p.s. I am an athiest, if that matters

Specifics

Cosmo wrote:

Do people who do good things for other people and don't believe in God... do good things because why... just because they are good things to do?
...
Do people who do good things for other people and DO believe in God... do good things because they believe God is watching and they will be rewarded with a trip to Heaven?
...
It would seem to me that the person who does good deeds... and expects no rewards... has no conditions (trip to Heaven) tied to their deeds... well, they sound a bit more sincere to me than the person who does good because they want that trip to Heaven. I think you should do good things... whether God is watching or not.
...
But, that's just me.

ditto, apart from add "and me" at the end.

angelica

bayleaf wrote:

Perhaps yes, but religion has a large impact on what society deems as right and wrong. Look at the laws of a country, how many are derived from religious ideas, look at the ten commandments, not stealing, not killing. To suggest that anything in society can be completley removed from religion as you are doing is arguabley wrong, religion is such an engrained institution within society.

In short, yes morals are learnt through societal conditioning but religion plays a large roll in the history and development of society so you therefore cannot seperate the two as you are.

p.s. I am an athiest, if that matters

I completely agree. Religion is something that has evolved within culture/society and is a bridge for human adaptation to our environment. When we no longer need religion for the purposes it meets, it will fall away. That it is so prevalent at this time is telling.

Religion plays it's exact and perfect evolutionary role at this time.

Developmental psychology recognizes levels of evolution within individuals and cultures, and depending on various stages, our natural human spirituality is represented in vastly different ways (through myths, fundamentalism, natural law, communal webs, and integratively, etc). Our spiritual capacity exists, and how it manifests depends on our worldview and our own personal level of evolution.

Within our evolutionary stages, it's also natural that those who have evolved past formal religion, but who have not resolved their internal conflict and disdain for it, to project that disdain onto natural functions in the real world, taking the inner conflict to be real, objectively. On the other hand, when one resolves such conflict, one is more able to progress towards higher stages of development, that become integrative, where one can see the whole of existence as a harmonious whole, beyond the separation created by inner conflict and fragmentation. At higher stages, one sees the conflict with religion as an illusion. When all is said and done, religion exists for it's exact purposes, across the globe, independent of personal opinion about it.

Ahnimus

bayleaf wrote:

Perhaps yes, but religion has a large impact on what society deems as right and wrong. Look at the laws of a country, how many are derived from religious ideas, look at the ten commandments, not stealing, not killing. To suggest that anything in society can be completley removed from religion as you are doing is arguabley wrong, religion is such an engrained institution within society.

In short, yes morals are learnt through societal conditioning but religion plays a large roll in the history and development of society so you therefore cannot seperate the two as you are.

p.s. I am an athiest, if that matters

I'm pretty sure killing is wrong in primitive tribes without religions. I'm not sure why it would be right in any society.

Restless Soul

Cosmo wrote:

Do people who do good things for other people and don't believe in God... do good things because why... just because they are good things to do?
...
Do people who do good things for other people and DO believe in God... do good things because they believe God is watching and they will be rewarded with a trip to Heaven?
...
It would seem to me that the person who does good deeds... and expects no rewards... has no conditions (trip to Heaven) tied to their deeds... well, they sound a bit more sincere to me than the person who does good because they want that trip to Heaven. I think you should do good things... whether God is watching or not.
...
But, that's just me.

IAWTC.

Brisk.

if heavens so friggin great why be put on earth in the first place... or why dont you just kill yourself....isn't it a sin or something.. but im sure God will forgive you as he just forgives anything you do..

know1

Everybody has morals....and none of them have the same morals. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm pretty sure killing is wrong in primitive tribes without religions. I'm not sure why it would be right in any society.

i think you will find ryan that even primitive tribes have some sort of devotion that could be classed as religion.

Ahnimus wrote:

Morals are learned through societal conditioning and religion is irrelevant.

one would have to look at where those societal standards come from in the first place. are they the result of hundreds or thousands of years of christianity or islam or are they the result of thousands of years of worshipping the Earth as the Mother of us all? or are societies devoid of any form of devotion at all.

decides2dream

Ahnimus wrote:

Morals are learned through societal conditioning...

exactly. for some, that may stem from religion...but more than anything, it is simply from being brought up in a 'moral' household, being brought up with good and bad, etc. morality does NOT have to be tied to religion, although oftentimes it is...but more than anything imho.....social conditioning, which can be influenced by a whole gamut of things. i do not think we are b'orn' with a sense of morality, more like preprogrammed for self-sustainability. so things like not killing others of your species, more than likely linked to survival, not just what is 'right'...i think 'right' has evolved from what is needed/necessary to survive individually and collectively. and hell yes, one CAN be quite 'moral' with or without religion. people who say/think otherwise, simply have their own agenda they're pushing.

korby

i dont know

ForestBrain

If I may...coming from a Christian...
.
.
.
What are morals? Right and wrong? I'm going to make a list of what I think morals are, then I'm going to continue:
Waiting until your married
not stealing
not killing
being considerate
helping others who need it
being kind
not judging people
not committing adultery.
Okay, those are some morals. Here I go:
Some people who call themselves Christians fornicate, commit adultery, steal, act rudely, hurt other people and take advantage of people.
Some atheists do the same.
Some atheist believe people should wait for sex until marriage, are against adultery, don't steal, are kind to people.
It just doesn't matter. It depends on the person. I actually think a lot of people who claim to be Christians are some of the most immoral people around.

Alex_Coe

I BrisK I wrote:

if heavens so friggin great why be put on earth in the first place... or why dont you just kill yourself....isn't it a sin or something.. but im sure God will forgive you as he just forgives anything you do..

:O

Let the flaming of Brisk begin.

(I don't think that sounds completely outrageous, as a euphamism.)

catefrances

I BrisK I wrote:

if heavens so friggin great why be put on earth in the first place... or why dont you just kill yourself....isn't it a sin or something.. but im sure God will forgive you as he just forgives anything you do..

oh brisk. suicide is an unforgivable sin because you can not ask forgiveness once you're dead. therefore God can not forgive you cause you have no way to ask for redemption for the sin you committed.