Ok, so soulsinging was right ... you don't know how the justice system works.
There is no question that the up front costs of the death penalty are significantly higher than for equivalent life term cases. But there's also no question that, over time, equivalent life term cases are much more expensive. It's as if you only wish to discuss the costs incurred during trials but completely ignore what it costs to house an inmate for a life term.
What matters ultimately is the sentencing process. That is a part of the justice cycle. You can not run from those cost.
"Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
If you take someone's life, in my opinion, you default on your own life.
Since most liberals don't believe in God I would think they would have no sense of understanding that the judicial system may be playing God. Factually it wouldn't make sense. That may not make sense to some of you, but it does to me.
The eye for an eye view is from the Bible Old Testament.
You will be hard pressed to find Catholics, who base their beliefs on the Gospels, in favour of the death penalty, regardless of being liberal or conservative.
So, not all who believe in God share the same view on the death penalty.
As for the statement of the judicial system playing God, there's this little issue of the separation of state and church, something that emerged in the Middle Ages and some countries have resolved successfully. Others not so - and I am not just referring to Islamic states.
What's going to be hardest for me is not allowing my emotions to become involved
I agree. But that is why it is the state who in the name of the collectivity administers justice - and not revenge. That should guarantee impartiality and fair trial and sentencing.
As for death penalty being considered a fair punishment for taking life, I do find it hard to justify, not only on criminal (no deterrent) or financial, but especially on moral grounds. Not just because there could be a miscarriage of justice, but because even if the defendant is guilty then you/the state would basically put yourself on the same level whereby human life is not valued and does not count.
Again, I recommend that anyone interested in this subject read Albert Camus essay 'Reflections on the Guillotine'. It really puts the subject into perspective. Unfortunately there's no online version.
Again, I recommend that anyone interested in this subject read Albert Camus essay 'Reflections on the Guillotine'. It really puts the subject into perspective. Unfortunately there's no online version.
Another book recommendation, from the 1700s and the Enlightment period, is for Cesare Beccaria's "On crimes and punishments", which constitutes the basis for much of modern criminal law.
On death penalty specifically:
"He also stated about the death penalty that, " it seems to me absurd that the laws , which are an expression of the public will, which detest and punish homicide, should themselves commit it, and that to deter citizens from murder they order a public one" (Beccaria, pg. 50). Beccaira felt that the death penalty, while cruel and excessive, it also was an ineffective measure to reduce or punish crime."
The eye for an eye view is from the Bible Old Testament.
it is not. It is from the Hammurabi code, that is older than the old testament. Hence, the "christians" that appeal to the eye for an eye concept, are even more wrong.
HOWEVER, I am against the death penalty for one reason: Going eye for eye on the biggest scumbags on the earth is not worth killing one innocent person. Fear of killing an innocent person is a good enough reason for me to be against it. I am sure it's a tough pill to swallow to be let out of prison after 10 years for a crime you did not commit, but it beats being executed for it...
The best statement in this thread goes completely ignored.
Well said.
Honestly, I don't think anyone has a problem with seeing the most vile offenders put to death, but how can one honestly account for the execution of an innocent individua? Simply put, mistakes are made. With so many high-profile cases being so political, there will always be undue pressure on police, courts and governors to achieve a conviction. How can you rationalize executing those innocent individuals. Its not as if the death penalty serves as a deterant for would-be rapists or murderers.
Honestly, I don't think anyone has a problem with seeing the most vile offenders put to death
I do. I think that a pre-concieved, clinical snuffing out of a life by a so-called civilized society, under the banner of 'justice', is the most sick of all sick things in this world.
The eye for an eye view is from the Bible Old Testament.
You will be hard pressed to find Catholics, who base their beliefs on the Gospels, in favour of the death penalty, regardless of being liberal or conservative.
So, not all who believe in God share the same view on the death penalty.
As for the statement of the judicial system playing God, there's this little issue of the separation of state and church, something that emerged in the Middle Ages and some countries have resolved successfully. Others not so - and I am not just referring to Islamic states.
all my godly fellow Texans believe in the death penalty.
it is not. It is from the Hammurabi code, that is older than the old testament. Hence, the "christians" that appeal to the eye for an eye concept, are even more wrong.
Ok, it dates from the Hammurabi code but it is also in the Old Testament.... or have I been taught wrong in Sunday school??!!!
doesn't jesus specifically say that people should not be playing god? to an extent it's necessary... but capital punishment is going unnecessarily far when it is just as easy (and cheaper) to lock them up in prison forever.
plus, how dyou think jesus feels about capital punishment after that whole crucifixion thing?
I believe this is the verse you are looking for:
John 8:7 "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
To kind of paraphrase the text of this verse, a woman convicted of adultry was to be put to death for her "crime." I interpret this verse to
Jesus was not arguing with the judgment. My interpretation of this verse is that Christ is not objecting to the conviction, he is objecting to the punishment. There is no one on this Earth free from sin, therefore, there is no one that can carry out the punishment justly.
I too used to be a supporter of the death penalty, but as I am also a Christian and also not free of sin, I believe it to be hypocritical for me to believe in it anymore.
John 8:7 "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
To kind of paraphrase the text of this verse, a woman convicted of adultry was to be put to death for her "crime." I interpret this verse to
Jesus was not arguing with the judgment. My interpretation of this verse is that Christ is not objecting to the conviction, he is objecting to the punishment. There is no one on this Earth free from sin, therefore, there is no one that can carry out the punishment justly.
I too used to be a supporter of the death penalty, but as I am also a Christian and also not free of sin, I believe it to be hypocritical for me to believe in it anymore.
I've always wondered how so many Christians could be in favor of the death penalty, when it seems so clear that Jesus would never condone it.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I've always wondered how so many Christians could be in favor of the death penalty, when it seems so clear that Jesus would never condone it.
I grew up Lutheran in the 1980s and early '90s. At the time, that was just the stance of the church as it was with many others. Honestly, I have no clue what the stance of the Lutheran church is anymore as I haven't set foot in one in 15 years. My grandparents had left the Lutheran church in the mid 80's and joined what would be considered a non-denominational church: everyone was welcome no matter the religious background. The fundamentals of that church were the teachings of Christ. The Lutheran church always left a bad taste in my mouth for several reason, one of which was the pomp and circumstance surrounding the actual service. I had no clue that a church service could contain anything but 300 year old hymns, sermons on how bad of a person I was, and of course, multiple requests for money, until I attended a service at a non-denominational church.
I'm sure there are many other reasons for Christians to be death penalty supporters, maybe they had a family memeber murdered or something, but as a Christian you are supposed to believe in and follow Christ. Christ, in my opinion, was anti-death penalty, therefore, I too am anti-death penalty.
I find this website interesting and heart breaking; both for the families of the victims, and also for the inmates themselves:
If what a portion of these inmates have said in their last words is what they truly believe, then Christ's blood has washed them of their sins and they will go to Heaven.
I know you cant be neutral on a moving train and all...
but this is another one of those issues that i get pressed on
95% of the time im against it, why?
Well, like you said, death has never turned off anyone from crime....Two, i still think that any humans, in any form, should be able to take life from another human... unless its completely needed. (ie, a woman trying to protect herself from an attacker or trying to protect here children, men as well) Three, innocent people get convicted all the time.... and its just not right to have a system that is not full proof
(btw, i never understood the whole christian stance on the death penalty either, "vengance is mine, ill will repay" the lord said. ) but yeah i guess thats a whole nother thread.....
the 5% of the time where i do agree with it, or feel like its justified... is when its crimes against children (and there are a few other exceptions as well) but i dunno, its something i cant shake....
all my godly fellow Texans believe in the death penalty.
Not I.
For many of the reasons listed, but most importantly for the fact the innocent people have been, and will continue to be executed for crimes they have not committed and I think that is absolutely heinous. The death penalty is cruel and unusual for this reason alone.
That's not to say if some crack head killed my mom for her purse I wouldn't want to cut his balls off and feed them to him before slowly dipping him into a tank of hungry piranhas. I understand the want and need for revenge by victims' families. But in the end it doesn't really solve anything, and more than likely the convicted would suffer more serving life in prison than dying a quick and relatively painless death administered by our government.
That money is spent reguardless of wether it is a capital case or not.
There is no question that the up front costs of the death penalty are significantly higher than for equivalent life term cases. But there's also no question that, over time, equivalent life term cases are much more expensive. It's as if you only wish to discuss the costs incurred during trials but completely ignore what it costs to house an inmate for a life term.
What matters ultimately is the sentencing process. That is a part of the justice cycle. You can not run from those cost.
that is the point. no, that money is NOT spent if it is not a capital case. capital cases get FAR more scrutiny and far more appellate review. it costs a LOT more than a life sentence in terms of sentencing costs and appeals process.
im not ignoring the cost of housing an inmate. im comparing that cost to the additional cost of what it takes to impose and carry out a death sentence as opposed to life imprisonment. there is no question. death sentences cost more.
And are you both seriously trying to convince me that the appeals process only applies to those sentenced to death?
no, we are trying to point out to you that the appeals process for a capital case is so much more expensive than the appeals process for a life sentence case, that housing an inmate in prison for life is STILL cheaper.
For many of the reasons listed, but most importantly for the fact the innocent people have been, and will continue to be executed for crimes they have not committed and I think that is absolutely heinous. The death penalty is cruel and unusual for this reason alone.
That's not to say if some crack head killed my mom for her purse I wouldn't want to cut his balls off and feed them to him before slowly dipping him into a tank of hungry piranhas. I understand the want and need for revenge by victims' families. But in the end it doesn't really solve anything, and more than likely the convicted would suffer more serving life in prison than dying a quick and relatively painless death administered by our government.
Howdy neighbor....I was just having fun....know many don't.
Course I'd take the odds anyday that the driver of the 1 ton with sticker of cowboy praying to the cross with horse next to him does.... (-:
Love a good debate- one of the main reasons I joined this board...
Personally I don't support the death penalty for a few reasons:
1. Risk of executing innocents.
2. Except for an enhanced feeling of revenge/justice in some people, I don't really see the difference to society as a whole between the death penalty and life in a secure prison without parole- In both cases the offending person is removed from society for good.
3. I still don't think that it works as a deterrent. As long as there are suitable punishments in place the deterrent is being caught- not the specifics of the punishment. Most premeditated crimes are committed because the criminals do not believe that they are going to get caught. Spontaneous violent crimes are committed with little thought of the punishment. So changing the punishment for murder from life in prison to death is, in my opinion, unlikely to deter any would be murderers.
I've always wondered how so many Christians could be in favor of the death penalty, when it seems so clear that Jesus would never condone it.
Austria is a Catholic country (you wouldn't believe the number of holidays we get ) and when he didn't stop the first execution that was scheduled during his time in office, the Arnold Schwarzenegger Stadium in Styria was re-named Liebenauer Stadium.
You can tell a man from what he has to say - Neil & Tim Finn
They love you so badly for sharing their sorrow, so pick up that guitar and go break a heart - Kris Kristofferson
I understand the want and need for revenge by victims' families. But in the end it doesn't really solve anything, and more than likely the convicted would suffer more serving life in prison than dying a quick and relatively painless death administered by our government.
I don't understand the want and need for revenge at all. It's pathetic.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
more than likely the convicted would suffer more serving life in prison than dying a quick and relatively painless death administered by our government.
So you imagine that the convicted would suffer relatively little pain? Have you considered the mental anguish that a man on death row must experience for years on end, or does that not count?
So you imagine that the convicted would suffer relatively little pain? Have you considered the mental anguish that a man on death row must experience for years on end, or does that not count?
And if you or any of your friends or family end up there one day for whatever reason, then I hope you remember that statement.
I will. Thanks.
Though, you bring up a point that is sad, the fact that this person's family has to deal with the pain, etc as well. That is unfortunate, very sad and unfair to them...but I'm still all for the death penalty in many cases.
Comments
There is no question that the up front costs of the death penalty are significantly higher than for equivalent life term cases. But there's also no question that, over time, equivalent life term cases are much more expensive. It's as if you only wish to discuss the costs incurred during trials but completely ignore what it costs to house an inmate for a life term.
What matters ultimately is the sentencing process. That is a part of the justice cycle. You can not run from those cost.
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
The eye for an eye view is from the Bible Old Testament.
You will be hard pressed to find Catholics, who base their beliefs on the Gospels, in favour of the death penalty, regardless of being liberal or conservative.
So, not all who believe in God share the same view on the death penalty.
As for the statement of the judicial system playing God, there's this little issue of the separation of state and church, something that emerged in the Middle Ages and some countries have resolved successfully. Others not so - and I am not just referring to Islamic states.
I agree. But that is why it is the state who in the name of the collectivity administers justice - and not revenge. That should guarantee impartiality and fair trial and sentencing.
As for death penalty being considered a fair punishment for taking life, I do find it hard to justify, not only on criminal (no deterrent) or financial, but especially on moral grounds. Not just because there could be a miscarriage of justice, but because even if the defendant is guilty then you/the state would basically put yourself on the same level whereby human life is not valued and does not count.
Another book recommendation, from the 1700s and the Enlightment period, is for Cesare Beccaria's "On crimes and punishments", which constitutes the basis for much of modern criminal law.
On death penalty specifically:
"He also stated about the death penalty that, " it seems to me absurd that the laws , which are an expression of the public will, which detest and punish homicide, should themselves commit it, and that to deter citizens from murder they order a public one" (Beccaria, pg. 50). Beccaira felt that the death penalty, while cruel and excessive, it also was an ineffective measure to reduce or punish crime."
Source: http://www.criminology.fsu.edu/crimtheory/beccaria.htm
www.amnesty.org.uk
The best statement in this thread goes completely ignored.
Well said.
Honestly, I don't think anyone has a problem with seeing the most vile offenders put to death, but how can one honestly account for the execution of an innocent individua? Simply put, mistakes are made. With so many high-profile cases being so political, there will always be undue pressure on police, courts and governors to achieve a conviction. How can you rationalize executing those innocent individuals. Its not as if the death penalty serves as a deterant for would-be rapists or murderers.
I do. I think that a pre-concieved, clinical snuffing out of a life by a so-called civilized society, under the banner of 'justice', is the most sick of all sick things in this world.
www.amnesty.org.uk
all my godly fellow Texans believe in the death penalty.
Ok, it dates from the Hammurabi code but it is also in the Old Testament.... or have I been taught wrong in Sunday school??!!!
I know!
But go over to Italy and you will be hard pressed to find any Christians (majority Catholic of course) supporting the death penalty.
So, it's all relative!
PS I am not catholic, btw, but still against the death penalty of course.
1. I dont think its a harsh enough sentence for certain scumbags.
2. too much of a risk to send an innocent person to death.
I do too.
naděje umírá poslední
I believe this is the verse you are looking for:
John 8:7 "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
To kind of paraphrase the text of this verse, a woman convicted of adultry was to be put to death for her "crime." I interpret this verse to
Jesus was not arguing with the judgment. My interpretation of this verse is that Christ is not objecting to the conviction, he is objecting to the punishment. There is no one on this Earth free from sin, therefore, there is no one that can carry out the punishment justly.
I too used to be a supporter of the death penalty, but as I am also a Christian and also not free of sin, I believe it to be hypocritical for me to believe in it anymore.
I grew up Lutheran in the 1980s and early '90s. At the time, that was just the stance of the church as it was with many others. Honestly, I have no clue what the stance of the Lutheran church is anymore as I haven't set foot in one in 15 years. My grandparents had left the Lutheran church in the mid 80's and joined what would be considered a non-denominational church: everyone was welcome no matter the religious background. The fundamentals of that church were the teachings of Christ. The Lutheran church always left a bad taste in my mouth for several reason, one of which was the pomp and circumstance surrounding the actual service. I had no clue that a church service could contain anything but 300 year old hymns, sermons on how bad of a person I was, and of course, multiple requests for money, until I attended a service at a non-denominational church.
I'm sure there are many other reasons for Christians to be death penalty supporters, maybe they had a family memeber murdered or something, but as a Christian you are supposed to believe in and follow Christ. Christ, in my opinion, was anti-death penalty, therefore, I too am anti-death penalty.
I find this website interesting and heart breaking; both for the families of the victims, and also for the inmates themselves:
http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/executedoffenders.htm
If what a portion of these inmates have said in their last words is what they truly believe, then Christ's blood has washed them of their sins and they will go to Heaven.
but this is another one of those issues that i get pressed on
95% of the time im against it, why?
Well, like you said, death has never turned off anyone from crime....Two, i still think that any humans, in any form, should be able to take life from another human... unless its completely needed. (ie, a woman trying to protect herself from an attacker or trying to protect here children, men as well) Three, innocent people get convicted all the time.... and its just not right to have a system that is not full proof
(btw, i never understood the whole christian stance on the death penalty either, "vengance is mine, ill will repay" the lord said. ) but yeah i guess thats a whole nother thread.....
the 5% of the time where i do agree with it, or feel like its justified... is when its crimes against children (and there are a few other exceptions as well) but i dunno, its something i cant shake....
Not I.
For many of the reasons listed, but most importantly for the fact the innocent people have been, and will continue to be executed for crimes they have not committed and I think that is absolutely heinous. The death penalty is cruel and unusual for this reason alone.
That's not to say if some crack head killed my mom for her purse I wouldn't want to cut his balls off and feed them to him before slowly dipping him into a tank of hungry piranhas. I understand the want and need for revenge by victims' families. But in the end it doesn't really solve anything, and more than likely the convicted would suffer more serving life in prison than dying a quick and relatively painless death administered by our government.
that is the point. no, that money is NOT spent if it is not a capital case. capital cases get FAR more scrutiny and far more appellate review. it costs a LOT more than a life sentence in terms of sentencing costs and appeals process.
im not ignoring the cost of housing an inmate. im comparing that cost to the additional cost of what it takes to impose and carry out a death sentence as opposed to life imprisonment. there is no question. death sentences cost more.
no, we are trying to point out to you that the appeals process for a capital case is so much more expensive than the appeals process for a life sentence case, that housing an inmate in prison for life is STILL cheaper.
Course I'd take the odds anyday that the driver of the 1 ton with sticker of cowboy praying to the cross with horse next to him does.... (-:
Personally I don't support the death penalty for a few reasons:
1. Risk of executing innocents.
2. Except for an enhanced feeling of revenge/justice in some people, I don't really see the difference to society as a whole between the death penalty and life in a secure prison without parole- In both cases the offending person is removed from society for good.
3. I still don't think that it works as a deterrent. As long as there are suitable punishments in place the deterrent is being caught- not the specifics of the punishment. Most premeditated crimes are committed because the criminals do not believe that they are going to get caught. Spontaneous violent crimes are committed with little thought of the punishment. So changing the punishment for murder from life in prison to death is, in my opinion, unlikely to deter any would be murderers.
Austria is a Catholic country (you wouldn't believe the number of holidays we get
They love you so badly for sharing their sorrow, so pick up that guitar and go break a heart - Kris Kristofferson
I don't understand the want and need for revenge at all. It's pathetic.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
So you imagine that the convicted would suffer relatively little pain? Have you considered the mental anguish that a man on death row must experience for years on end, or does that not count?
I hope it is terrible pain.
And if you or any of your friends or family end up there one day for whatever reason, then I hope you remember that statement.
I will. Thanks.
Though, you bring up a point that is sad, the fact that this person's family has to deal with the pain, etc as well. That is unfortunate, very sad and unfair to them...but I'm still all for the death penalty in many cases.