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My stance on the death penalty...
Vedderlution_Baby
Posts: 2,545
As of Wednesday November 8th, 2006 my stance on the issue has changed. I'm against it. Just wanted to get that out there.
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Vedderlution_Baby
Posts: 2,545
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and you were for it yesterday?
why the change? that's quite a flip-flop.
First off, it doesn't work at all. Being killed hasn't defered people away from crime.
Second, it's too...final and unforgiving. If an innocent person is put into prison, even though it was fucked up that they were convicted in the first place, they have a chance of getting out witht the discovery of new evidence. If someone is killed and then found to be innocent, well, what the fuck are you supposed to do? "OOPS!"
Thirdly, I can't get past how hypocritcal it is.
"Killing is bad! You have been convicted of murder!"
"What's my punishment"
"Uh...well...we're going to kill y..ou"
Im torn on this subject, though I lean more being against it...
Sometimes I see cases that make me feel like that person needs to die...
But like you I ponder about the same things, first do we have the right to kill someone because they killed, aren't we depriving someone of their life as well ? though its allright because we did it in the name of justice?
And the other and scariest point, what if the person is not guilty?, what if Damon Echols for example gets executed and 3 years later they realize 'Oh I guess those who opposed the sentence were right, he was innocent" what do we do then? bring him back from the dead? Cant.
There are many cases that get murder convictions based on circumstancial evidence, and I think that putting someone to die that claims is innocent is way to much of a risk to take.
What's going to be hardest for me is not allowing my emotions to become involved
The Financial Costs of the Death Penalty
Death penalty cases are much more expensive than other criminal cases and cost more than imprisonment for life with no possibility of parole. In California, capital trials are six times more costly than other murder trials.(1) A study in Kansas indicated that a capital trial costs $116,700 more than an ordinary murder trial.(2) Complex pre-trial motions, lengthy jury selections, and expenses for expert witnesses are all likely to add to the costs in death penalty cases. The irreversibility of the death sentence requires courts to follow heightened due process in the preparation and course of the trial. The separate sentencing phase of the trial can take even longer than the guilt or innocence phase of the trial. And defendants are much more likely to insist on a trial when they are facing a possible death sentence. After conviction, there are constitutionally mandated appeals which involve both prosecution and defense costs.
Most of these costs occur in every case for which capital punishment is sought, regardless of the outcome. Thus, the true cost of the death penalty includes all the added expenses of the "unsuccessful" trials in which the death penalty is sought but not achieved. Moreover, if a defendant is convicted but not given the death sentence, the state will still incur the costs of life imprisonment, in addition to the increased trial expenses.
For the states which employ the death penalty, this luxury comes at a high price. In Texas, a death penalty case costs taxpayers an average of $2.3 million, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years.(3) In Florida, each execution is costing the state $3.2 million.(4) In financially strapped California, one report estimated that the state could save $90 million each year by abolishing capital punishment.(5) The New York Department of Correctional Services estimated that implementing the death penalty would cost the state about $118 million annually.(6)
from http://www.fnsa.org/v1n1/dieter1.html
angels share laughter
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
I'm sure if someday down the road Bush is sentenced to the same fate you will surely see the morality of it all.
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
How about you stop jumping to conclusions jackass.
Well see.. I've invented this new game. It's called the "Jump to Conclusions" game.
You see, you have a mat, and it’s got some conclusions written on it, and you back up next to the mat, and think about a question, and then you jump to a conclusion. Right there on the mat, you jump to a conclusion…
I think I won?
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
ahhhhhh!!!! Office Space!
That is pretty funny.
Sorry about the jackass comment.
But I've been grappling with this for awhile now, long before assface was sentenced to hang. And no, if bush was convicted, I would not support his death.
I'm glad someone clung to that!
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
If you take someone's life, in my opinion, you default on your own life.
Since most liberals don't believe in God I would think they would have no sense of understanding that the judicial system may be playing God. Factually it wouldn't make sense. That may not make sense to some of you, but it does to me.
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
Maybe this very statement sheds some light on ones thought about abortion? No?
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
But being the bleeding hearts don't believe in and won't allow a strict labor punishment, the death penalty will have to do.
My God! That's almost as dispicable as having to listen to the Red Hot Chili Peppers at a high volume!
You make me sick!
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
Of course, that's why there is so much debate about these issues. They are tricky.
doesn't jesus specifically say that people should not be playing god? to an extent it's necessary... but capital punishment is going unnecessarily far when it is just as easy (and cheaper) to lock them up in prison forever.
plus, how dyou think jesus feels about capital punishment after that whole crucifixion thing?
I'm not sure. I'm not religious. But thanks for lumping me in with the rest of those "nut jobs".....
Whoa wait! It's cheaper to house an inmate for life than it is to eliminate them?
Whoa whoa whoa! What!?
You have just nullified your right to debate national debt and taxes!
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
do you not read? do you have any idea how much it costs to execute somebody? after the extensive appeals process, multiple trials, courts costs, fees, judicial reviews... read prism's post. i know reading is hard for you. but try it just once. it costs a LOT more to execute somebody than it does to jail them for life. a LOT. from the end of the trial to the time of execution can take a decade or more in many cases. that's 10 years of filing appeals, motions, etc, you paying for the defendant's attorney and the prosecutor, the judge, court reporter, funding the defendant's inane studies to "prove" they couldn't have done it. it costs a fortune.
you've lost your right to debate any topic that requires basic reading comprehension or critical analysis.
That's pure liberal non-sense. Sure, that's obviously the case if you're including cost the taxpayer burdens paying the salaries of the judges, prosecutors, public defenders, court officials for 'abnormaly long cases' inwhich the death penalty is being persued. The justice process has nothing to do with housing a criminal for life nor does it have anything to do with the cost of putting one to death after conviction. Once that part of any case is over, the remaining cost to house a criminal behind bars far outweighs that of someone put to death.
lol An idiot. Thanks. Always with the name-calling.
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
you have studies for this? what am i thinking, of course not. you dont let facts get in the way of your views... you've got your beliefs and no amount of reality can shake that...
you cannot separate the cost of appeal from the cost of imprisonment. it's hundreds of man hours. it means we have to hire more judges and prosecutors... two when we could just have one. you have cops who, instead of protecting us, are being paid to testify and defend every minutae of their evidence collection. that's less men on the streets and more tied u in bureacracy. you have public defenders spending ten years defending scumbags... meaning another public defender has to be hired to take on the other cases. this whole time you're paying to jail this guy. you're adding to the cost of jailing by having to constntly shuttle him back and forth to court, which is not cheap and a drain on manpower (it takes 2 guards out of the prison to transport one prisoner to court). it's an expensive process.
are you telling me, as a fiscal conservative, you'd rather spend twice as much of the taxpayer's dollars trying to execute someone than just lock them up for a fraction of the price? YOU'RE not allowed to claim to be fiscally conservative.
First off most liberals DO believe in God. I don't
Second I agree 100% with eye for an eye. One who kills in cold blood deserves death. I stray from my fellow-libs on that.
HOWEVER, I am against the death penalty for one reason: Going eye for eye on the biggest scumbags on the earth is not worth killing one innocent person. Fear of killing an innocent person is a good enough reason for me to be against it. I am sure it's a tough pill to swallow to be let out of prison after 10 years for a crime you did not commit, but it beats being executed for it...
Though there are conflicting views...
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7
http://www.deathpenalty.org/index.php?pid=cost&menu=1%22
http://www.wesleylowe.com/cp.html
http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/DP.html
There is no price in obtaining justice in my opinion. Consequently I do not choose to lump those cost incurred during the court process into the equation.
And I certainly will not use it as a tool to defend abolishing the capital punishment.
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
that's ridiculous. you know when somebody is convicted? after the first trial. then there are years of appeals. this person is already convicted. do you understand anything about how the american justice system works?
"Final word." As in no more appeals. Like? You know? Seperation of the court process and penalty serving process?
And again, I do not lump the court processes in with the penalty serving process when dealing with putting a criminal to death or paying for the housing of one. You're still not understanding me. I don't even care about the courts here.
A 3-drug mixture introduced into a syringe including sodium pentothal, pancuronium bromide, and potassium chloride does not equal the cost of 50 years of maintaining a criminal in the prison system.
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
You can count it or not count it, doesn't matter .... it's still money that is spent every time we execute someone.
There is no question that the up front costs of the death penalty are significantly higher than for equivalent life term cases. But there's also no question that, over time, equivalent life term cases are much more expensive. It's as if you only wish to discuss the costs incurred during trials but completely ignore what it costs to house an inmate for a life term.
What matters ultimately is the sentencing process. That is a part of the justice cycle. You can not run from those cost.
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08