American Revolution

Vedderlution_BabyVedderlution_Baby Posts: 2,535
edited March 2007 in A Moving Train
So what do you guys think about this? A lot of us grew up being told that the americans were being over taxed and having all their freedoms limited and taken advantage of by a tyraniccal britain. From my viewpoint, the british were more than a little patient with the colonists and actually pretty...can't think of a really good word so I'll just use this one...passive about the whole situation. From what I've read and learned, the colonists were all about taking and never about paying dues and accepting consequences.



And don't confuse for a post that's bashing america and calling them whiny or anything like that, i just want to start a conversation.
Post edited by Unknown User on
«1

Comments

  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    In CONGRESS, July 4th, 1776.

    The Unanimous Declaration of Independence of the thirteen united States of America.



    When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, having its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Such has been the patient suffrance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    He has forbidden his Governors to pass laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, has utterly neglected to attend to them.

    He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

    He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

    He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

    He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the meantime exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

    He has endeavored to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

    He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

    He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

    He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

    He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

    He has affected to render the military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

    He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their acts of pretended legislation.

    For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

    For imposing taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

    For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offenses:

    For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighboring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

    For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally, the Forms of our Governments:

    For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with Power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever:

    He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

    He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

    He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

    He has constrained our fellow Citizen taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

    He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

    In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

    Nor have We been wanting in attention to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connection and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

    We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

    The Original Thirteen Colonies:
    - Carolina (Later divided into North and South Carolina)
    - Connecticut
    - Delaware
    - Georgia
    - Maryland
    - Massachusetts
    - New Hampshire
    - New Jersey
    - New York
    - Pennsylvania
    - Rhode Island
    - Virginia
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • Yes, I've read that too. what it got to do with what i asked?
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    So what do you guys think about this? A lot of us grew up being told that the americans were being over taxed and having all their freedoms limited and taken advantage of by a tyraniccal britain. From my viewpoint, the british were more than a little patient with the colonists and actually pretty...can't think of a really good word so I'll just use this one...passive about the whole situation. From what I've read and learned, the colonists were all about taking and never about paying dues and accepting consequences.



    And don't confuse for a post that's bashing america and calling them whiny or anything like that, i just want to start a conversation.

    Well, I guess it depends on how much you like servitude and rule of will. Personally, I think freedom is a good thing. The colonists were all about taking? You've been reading too much Zinn.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Yes, I've read that too. what it got to do with what i asked?

    HUH? Do you not understand why the revolution was fought? Read the document again. Read the list of grievances. Damn.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • oh bother. yea, and the colonists were being crushed by taxes. You do understand why taxes were put into place right?

    And it's really funny when they start talking to their "brethren"
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    oh bother. yea, and the colonists were being crushed by taxes. You do understand why taxes were put into place right?

    And it's really funny when they start talking to their "brethren"

    You asked, I answered. You think the British monarchy was doing great things. I think they were assholes and we were justified. We will have no common ground here.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • I just don't really understand what the british did that was so bad. They implemented taxes on the colonies to pay for the british military that was in the americas, a military the colonists used. They implemented other taxes (Sugar act, molasses act) to try and stop american smugglers who completely went around the government and paid absolutely no attention to the law, and since they were tried by their peers, they were never found guilty and always acquited, which meant they went right back out there and did it again. Even when the british implemented the Tea act, which lowered the price of tea, the colonists rebelled and the sons of liberty pulled off the boston tea party. And what I meant by the brethen statement: essentially, they say that the british civilians can be faulted by not electing officials who did not create such acts that were currently in place. What I don't understand is why someone would elect an official that taxes them to pay for something they dont use nor see.
  • momofglynnmomofglynn Posts: 849
    growing up right outside of Boston, Concord, Lexington area, we are surrounded by the history of the Revolutionary War. Personally I think we did what we needed to do in order to survive. We were ordered to pay taxes and pretty stiff ones at that, and they gave us no voice when it came to rules that applied. So not only did they force people out of England due to religion. We settled in the US on the behalf of England. England then taxed us at crazy amounts and then basically treated us like a red headed step child. So we got a little mad, said enough is enough. I was born in MA, lived in NH my whole life and I like the fact that NH is still pretty true to form. Live Free or Die.
    Let's Go Red Sox!
  • Oh, and by the way, like I said before, I'm not trying to take anything away from the american revolution. I'm glad I live in america and that it's given me as many opportunities as it has. I just think it's interesting to look at all sides of a story, that's all.
  • It wasn't just about taxes it was also about social mobility. England didn't offer any social ability and people could be wealthy in America and move up in class. Also French and Indian War. Britain expected the colonists to pay for their war against France because it was in America. Now that is fine and good since a lot of it was about territory and fur trading rights but at the same time they hade been constantly fighting France for a long time on the other side of the world and expected the colonists to do their bidding while they ordered them around, not to mention feed and house them.

    The colonists got a taste of self government and loved it!!! Sure they had acted like brats at times but shit they tried to send King George the III an Olive Branch petition to say "Hey we are loyal subjects, we don't want war"and he essentially said "Fuck Off!!" It was pretty tough for Britain to run it anyway being so far away. I love this stuff!

    Thanks for posting the Declaration!
    "She knows there is no success like failure
    And that failure's no success at all."

    "Don't ya think its sometimes wise not to grow up."

    "Cause life ain't nothing but a good groove
    A good mixed tape to put you in the right mood."
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    It was about monetary control which was restored to the Brittish bankers shortly after. So you might as well forget it ever happened.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire

  • The colonists got a taste of self government and loved it!!! Sure they had acted like brats at times but shit they tried to send King George the III an Olive Branch petition to say "Hey we are loyal subjects, we don't want war"and he essentially said "Fuck Off!!" It was pretty tough for Britain to run it anyway being so far away. I love this stuff!

    Thanks for posting the Declaration!


    I was wondering about this the other day. The colonies sent the olive branch petition, but a letter written by John Adams that stated war was inevitable and that they (the colonies) should have already been on the attack arrived at the same time, which completely fucked up the petition. If that letter hadn't been confiscated and sent to britain, maybe something could have been worked out? Or do you think the king still would have disregarded the petition? I think theres a pretty good chance he would have said "Fuck you" but the petition pretty much called for negotiations between trade and such so maybe he wouldnt have.
  • I was wondering about this the other day. The colonies sent the olive branch petition, but a letter written by John Adams that stated war was inevitable and that they (the colonies) should have already been on the attack arrived at the same time, which completely fucked up the petition. If that letter hadn't been confiscated and sent to britain, maybe something could have been worked out? Or do you think the king still would have disregarded the petition? I think theres a pretty good chance he would have said "Fuck you" but the petition pretty much called for negotiations between trade and such so maybe he wouldnt have.

    Yeah that is a good point and question. I think Britain was getting fed up with the colonists attitude. But also as earlier threads maybe hinted at, money and trade were a huge part. Britain did treat the colonies like their bitch which they certainly were for making the country so much money. Too bad they kept fighting wars.
    "She knows there is no success like failure
    And that failure's no success at all."

    "Don't ya think its sometimes wise not to grow up."

    "Cause life ain't nothing but a good groove
    A good mixed tape to put you in the right mood."
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    Yeah that is a good point and question. I think Britain was getting fed up with the colonists attitude. But also as earlier threads maybe hinted at, money and trade were a huge part. Britain did treat the colonies like their bitch which they certainly were for making the country so much money. Too bad they kept fighting wars.

    a big part was also as ahnimus already said
    "It was about monetary control which was restored to the Brittish bankers shortly after. So you might as well forget it ever happened."

    Jefferson said the national banking system was just as dangerous to the country as a standing army, and he was right
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_Kabong wrote:
    a big part was also as ahnimus already said
    "It was about monetary control which was restored to the Brittish bankers shortly after. So you might as well forget it ever happened."

    Jefferson said the national banking system was just as dangerous to the country as a standing army, and he was right

    Yeah, wasn't it Alexander Hamilton who was a big Federalist and really pushed the National Bank?
    "She knows there is no success like failure
    And that failure's no success at all."

    "Don't ya think its sometimes wise not to grow up."

    "Cause life ain't nothing but a good groove
    A good mixed tape to put you in the right mood."
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    El_Kabong wrote:
    a big part was also as ahnimus already said
    "It was about monetary control which was restored to the Brittish bankers shortly after. So you might as well forget it ever happened."

    Jefferson said the national banking system was just as dangerous to the country as a standing army, and he was right

    Except that the the "forget it ever happened" part. That is just silly. We have some common history with Great Briton, but we have done some amazing things since telling them to go fuck themselves. I know some of you don't like to recognize the greatness of what we've acheived, but we went from a bastard colony to THE world economic, military and industrial leader in just a couple of hundred years. The "forget it ever happened" clause seems to suggest that it was all for naught. Nothing could be futher from the truth.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    jeffbr wrote:
    Except that the the "forget it ever happened" part. That is just silly. We have some common history with Great Briton, but we have done some amazing things since telling them to go fuck themselves. I know some of you don't like to recognize the greatness of what we've acheived, but we went from a bastard colony to THE world economic, military and industrial leader in just a couple of hundred years. The "forget it ever happened" clause seems to suggest that it was all for naught. Nothing could be futher from the truth.

    Yea, but all of your wealth belongs to Rockefellers, Morgans and Rothchilds which originated in Britain. Doh!

    The same forces that caused the British taxation of American colonies now directly taxes Americans.

    So what did you really gain?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Yea, but all of your wealth belongs to Rockefellers, Morgans and Rothchilds which originated in Britain. Doh!

    The same forces that caused the British taxation of American colonies now directly taxes Americans.

    So what did you really gain?

    Apparently a lot more than if we'd stayed subjugated. I don't understand how you think the revolution was much ado 'bout nothing. We leapfrogged GB in every measure that matters, very early on, and haven't looked back. We did so by fostering an environment that allowed people to achieve their potential. You're going to have to explain to me how your point has any relevance beyond some academic observation.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    jeffbr wrote:
    Apparently a lot more than if we'd stayed subjugated. I don't understand how you think the revolution was much ado 'bout nothing. We leapfrogged GB in every measure that matters, very early on, and haven't looked back. We did so by fostering an environment that allowed people to achieve their potential. You're going to have to explain to me how your point has any relevance beyond some academic observation.

    That is the guise yes.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus wrote:
    Yea, but all of your wealth belongs to Rockefellers, Morgans and Rothchilds which originated in Britain. Doh!

    The same forces that caused the British taxation of American colonies now directly taxes Americans.

    So what did you really gain?

    A great story for independence!!!

    Economics is boring!!!!! Let's talk about how we beat those lobster backs and gained an identity through freedom of religion, social mobility, and hard work.

    See now isn't the history (from an American perspective), victory, and glory so much more exciting!!! :D:D

    I too choose to bask in our victory for independence!!!
    "She knows there is no success like failure
    And that failure's no success at all."

    "Don't ya think its sometimes wise not to grow up."

    "Cause life ain't nothing but a good groove
    A good mixed tape to put you in the right mood."
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    A great story for independence!!!

    Economics is boring!!!!! Let's talk about how we beat those lobster backs and gained an identity through freedom of religion, social mobility, and hard work.

    See now isn't the history (from an American perspective), victory, and glory so much more exciting!!! :D:D

    I too choose to bask in our victory for independence!!!

    Dude, the Americans drove my family out of Pensylvania during the American Revolution because we were Mennonites. Religious freedom my ass!
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus wrote:
    Dude, the Americans drove my family out of Pensylvania during the American Revolution because we were Mennonites. Religious freedom my ass!

    I was being somewhat sarcastic, but also a little serious in my statement about the glory and victory part. Obviously it has much more appeal than some hidden hard to swallow truths and people gravitate to the stories of valor and so forth. I do find it interesting that so many religious groups came to the New World to practice their beliefs but yet once they got here they excluded other beliefs. So others went and settled other places and formed other colonies. Kind of like, "We hated done to us over there, but we are going to do it to you over here because we found this turf first, except wait there are natives here but they do not really count."
    "She knows there is no success like failure
    And that failure's no success at all."

    "Don't ya think its sometimes wise not to grow up."

    "Cause life ain't nothing but a good groove
    A good mixed tape to put you in the right mood."
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    I was being somewhat sarcastic, but also a little serious in my statement about the glory and victory part. Obviously it has much more appeal than some hidden hard to swallow truths and people gravitate to the stories of valor and so forth. I do find it interesting that so many religious groups came to the New World to practice their beliefs but yet once they got here they excluded other beliefs. So others went and settled other places and formed other colonies. Kind of like, "We hated done to us over there, but we are going to do it to you over here because we found this turf first, except wait there are natives here but they do not really count."

    lol

    People are fucked up man.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    So where does Mel Gibson fit in all of this? :confused:
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jeffbr wrote:
    We leapfrogged GB in every measure that matters, very early on, and haven't looked back.

    'Every measure that matters'? Really?
  • MakingWavesMakingWaves Posts: 1,293
    I just don't really understand what the british did that was so bad. They implemented taxes on the colonies to pay for the british military that was in the americas, a military the colonists used. They implemented other taxes (Sugar act, molasses act) to try and stop american smugglers who completely went around the government and paid absolutely no attention to the law, and since they were tried by their peers, they were never found guilty and always acquited, which meant they went right back out there and did it again. Even when the british implemented the Tea act, which lowered the price of tea, the colonists rebelled and the sons of liberty pulled off the boston tea party. And what I meant by the brethen statement: essentially, they say that the british civilians can be faulted by not electing officials who did not create such acts that were currently in place. What I don't understand is why someone would elect an official that taxes them to pay for something they dont use nor see.

    Read the book 1776. It sums it up and is a good read. Their taxes were raised for wars being fought by the British on foreign soil and the colonies were at a point where they didn't feel tied to Britan anymore. The taxation without representation became a big deal because of this and things started going downhill quickly after that. I don't think it is a stupid question for you to ask either. We have to remember there were a large number of colonists who were asking the same question you are.
    Seeing visions of falling up somehow.

    Pensacola '94
    New Orleans '95
    Birmingham '98
    New Orleans '00
    New Orleans '03
    Tampa '08
    New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest
    New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest
    Fenway Park '18
    St. Louis '22
  • Sweet fancy moses....


    Vedderlution...how would you feel if you were taxed and refused the right to vote? Would you consider that "passive"?
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Byrnzie wrote:
    'Every measure that matters'? Really?

    Well, not every measure. The English play a more beautiful game of footy. ;)
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • The Atlantic Ocean has a surface area of roughly 32 million square miles. Britain is on one side and America is on the other. After you understand that, history becomes pretty clear.
    "Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"

    "What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."

    Camden 5-28-06
    Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Someone want to explain where your tax money is going now?

    Oh yeah, right, here!
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Sign In or Register to comment.