When will the War in Iraq end?

miller8966

qtegirl wrote:

"In a breakfast meeting with American soldiers, he [new Sec. of Defense Gates] offered the following:

'[W]e need to make damn sure that the neighbors understand we're going to be here a long time, 'here' meaning the Persian Gulf area, not necessarily here in Iraq.' "

And:

"I think the message that we are sending to everyone, not just Iran, is that the United States is an enduring presence in this part of the world. We have been here for a long time. We will be here for a long time and everybody needs to remember that -- both our friends and those who might consider themselves our adversaries."

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It doesn't matter how long the war in iraq lasts, the US is there to stay. It's never going to end unless something VERY dramatic happens (I'm not sure what that would be... economic collapse?). Remember, this is the Long War and Iraq is just a one theater in the global war on terrorrism.

Id rather be at war for a while than suffer economic collapse.

Cosmo

miller8966 wrote:

Id rather be at war for a while than suffer economic collapse.

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Therefore... money is greater than human lives.

Cosmo

know1 wrote:

The war is over. The occupation is ongoing.

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So, killing in War... BAD. Death in Occupation... well, i can live with it.
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Makes sense to me... if I lived in the Bizzarro World.

miller8966

Cosmo wrote:

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Therefore... money is greater than human lives.

without money we die anyway.......

Cosmo

know1 wrote:

I am against the war, but I'm also against pulling out and letting chaos ensue and have more lives ended than if we stay. After all, I do not value the life of an American over that of an Iraqi or anyone else. If us leaving would cause more death than us staying, we should stay.

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We are trainning Militia Men and Death Squads over there. Not intentionally, of course... but the Bush/Rumsfeld Plan of Quantity over Quality has allowed a lot of Vengence Seekers to get into uniform and pressed into duty.
Right now, our military is basically a referee in a Civil War. A referee who has lost control of the game because it fails to penalize either side of violations. Our guys are screwed because they are in a shitty situation that no one wants to deal with.
If you want to control the situation... you need MORE REFEREES. We need about 250,000 to 400,000 (ideal number would be 15 troops per 1,000 locals). If we are serious about 'Winning' this thing... maybe we should get serious about it.

Cosmo

miller8966 wrote:

without money we die anyway.......

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Not me. I don't eat money.

MrBrian

Cosmo wrote:

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Not me. I don't eat money.

hehehe, funny!

yield2me

DCGARDEN wrote:

All's you need for your piece of mind my friend, is for the Iraqi leadership to publicly demand that the US leave Iraq. They will not do that, so we are not going anywhere. They will know when they are ready to defend themselves and their own fucking streets properly.

All's you need is all's you's guys to stop all's this fighting! -sorry i had to do it!

know1

Cosmo wrote:

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We are trainning Militia Men and Death Squads over there. Not intentionally, of course... but the Bush/Rumsfeld Plan of Quantity over Quality has allowed a lot of Vengence Seekers to get into uniform and pressed into duty.
Right now, our military is basically a referee in a Civil War. A referee who has lost control of the game because it fails to penalize either side of violations. Our guys are screwed because they are in a shitty situation that no one wants to deal with.
If you want to control the situation... you need MORE REFEREES. We need about 250,000 to 400,000 (ideal number would be 15 troops per 1,000 locals). If we are serious about 'Winning' this thing... maybe we should get serious about it.

I can't disagree with much of that. My question is: Would you support pulling out if you knew more killing would occur than if we stay?

Cosmo

know1 wrote:

I can't disagree with much of that. My question is: Would you support pulling out if you knew more killing would occur than if we stay?

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We already KNOW there will be more killing... whenever we leave... whether it's tomorrow, next year or 10 years from now. In the maentime... the killing continues.
Do you believe these guys will ever stop killing each other? Their justification is Vengence. The killing will stop once the vengence goes away. How long is that going to take.

know1

Cosmo wrote:

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We already KNOW there will be more killing... whenever we leave... whether it's tomorrow, next year or 10 years from now. In the maentime... the killing continues.
Do you believe these guys will ever stop killing each other? Their justification is Vengence. The killing will stop once the vengence goes away. How long is that going to take.

So you are saying that you do indeed support a plan that would lead immediately to more deaths?

qtegirl

know1 wrote:

So you are saying that you do indeed support a plan that would lead immediately to more deaths?

How do you know that withdrawal will lead to moke killing?

People are dying because of and inspite of American presense. 600,000 people dead so far, in 3 years. That's 200,000 a year. 1/3 of those deaths were directly afflicted byt the US troops. The troops leaves, maybe the civil war doesn't end, but 1/3 less people would die.

know1

qtegirl wrote:

How do you know that withdrawal will lead to moke killing?

People are dying because of and inspite of American presense. 600,000 people dead so far, in 3 years. That's 200,000 a year. 1/3 of those deaths were directly afflicted byt the US troops. The troops leaves, maybe the civil war doesn't end, but 1/3 less people would die.

I don't, but I was responding to Cosmo's comment indicating that it would lead to more deaths. Read back though...

Cosmo

know1 wrote:

So you are saying that you do indeed support a plan that would lead immediately to more deaths?

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I'm saying ANY plan we come up to would lead to more deaths...
Doing what we are currently doing... more deaths.
Leaving today... more deaths.
Leaving next year (and during the period prior to our leaving)... more deaths.
Leaving 10 years from now... see above.
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If we get serious and send in the additional 150,000 troops needed to seal the borders, protect the oil fields and pipelines, patrol the rivers, weed out the current Iraqi Security Forces of Shi'ite and Sunni militia men... we will end up killing a ton in the process.
Anyway you look at it... more deaths are in Iraq's future.
The only no death possibility... Shi'ites and Sunnis give up their religious differences and accept each other as fellow Muslims.
That ain't going to happen until Pat Robertson actually DOES leg press 2,000 pounds.

know1

Cosmo wrote:

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I'm saying ANY plan we come up to would lead to more deaths...
Doing what we are currently doing... more deaths.
Leaving today... more deaths.
Leaving next year (and during the period prior to our leaving)... more deaths.
Leaving 10 years from now... see above.
...
If we get serious and send in the additional 150,000 troops needed to seal the borders, protect the oil fields and pipelines, patrol the rivers, weed out the current Iraqi Security Forces of Shi'ite and Sunni militia men... we will end up killing a ton in the process.
Anyway you look at it... more deaths are in Iraq's future.
The only no death possibility... Shi'ites and Sunnis give up their religious differences and accept each other as fellow Muslims.
That ain't going to happen until Pat Robertson actually DOES leg press 2,000 pounds.

I guess when I say "more deaths" I mean it like this:

In Plan A, 500 people would die in the next 5 years

In Plan B, 2000 people would die in the next 5 years

I would vote for Plan A every time, but it seems as if you are indicating that there would be scenarios where you would vote for Plan B.

qtegirl

Cosmo wrote:

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The only no death possibility... Shi'ites and Sunnis give up their religious differences and accept each other as fellow Muslims.

So you're saying all of this is the Iraqi's fault?

Do you remember that all of this started with the Sunnis opposing the US presence, and then the US using the largely Shia militias to stop the Sunnis? Then the Sunnis starting attacking the Shias in response. And you get what you have now.

tybird

qtegirl wrote:

So you're saying all of this is the Iraqi's fault?

Do you remember that all of this started with the Sunnis opposing the US presence, and then the US using the largely Shia militias to stop the Sunnis? Then the Sunnis starting attacking the Shias in response. And you get what you have now.

Iraq is an imperially created nation.....the mapmakers of the West (and just the United States) drew up the map and said this plot of land is Iraq. It did not matter to the mapmakers that this "nation" was composed of three different ethnic groups who did not get along ......so yes, it is the West's fault for part of the situation. The hate between the ethnic groups that make up what is Iraq is the fault of the ethnic groups themselves. The Sunni/Shia disagreement is one of the reasons that Iraq and Iran had a little war a couple of decades back, so this propensity towards sectarian violence between Sunni and Shia is not isolated to Iraq.

Cosmo

qtegirl wrote:

So you're saying all of this is the Iraqi's fault?

Do you remember that all of this started with the Sunnis opposing the US presence, and then the US using the largely Shia militias to stop the Sunnis? Then the Sunnis starting attacking the Shias in response. And you get what you have now.

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No... I am an American that believes in taking full responsibility for my actions. These deaths are a direct result with our involvement in Iraq. If we weren't there in the first place... none of this would have happened.
I'm saying that the current sectarian violence has evolved into a Civil War. The Shi'ites have been oppressed for the past 30 years and have seen many of their families killed under the Saddam Hussein regime. Now, the gun is in the other hand and there is payback in their hearts. Hell, who wouldn't want vengence? If your family was dragged off into the night and you never saw them until 15 years later when their remains were discovered in a mass grave with bullets in their eyes... now, you get the gun instead of them. How many can honestly say they would say, "I forgive you... let's make this country for all of us". I know I would probably go gunning for the bastards for payback.
The American troops are caught in the Middle. They cannot choose a side... siding with Sunnis would go against the Shi'ite Majority in Iraq... and siding with the Shi'ites would alienate the Sunni nations in the region, such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt (plus, we would basically become and ally with Iran if we did).
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Also, it wasn't just the Sunnis fighting the Americans in Iraq.... remember the fighting in Sadr City? Those were Muqtada al sadr's guys that took on the Americans. Al Sadr was smart and pulled back his forces, knowing that he would be able to gain control in a Democratic Election. Once in power, he could influence the government and simply tell the Americans they must leave. And he will tolerate the Americans as long as we keep trainning and arming his forces.
When the Iraqi Government finally tells us to leave... including abandoning our forward base of operations we are setting up over there... what can we do? Refuse to leave?
We're fucked... WE ARE FUCKED. And if there is anyone to specifically blame... it is President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Secretary Rumsfeld and Secretary Rice that bear the responsibility for all of those U.S. soldier and Iraqi lives. They have the authority, they made the decision... they should hold the responsibility and be held accountable for their actions. The American people are responsible because we allowed them to get away with it.

qtegirl

Cosmo wrote:

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No... I am an American that believes in taking full responsibility for my actions. These deaths are a direct result with our involvement in Iraq. If we weren't there in the first place... none of this would have happened.
I'm saying that the current sectarian violence has evolved into a Civil War. The Shi'ites have been oppressed for the past 30 years and have seen many of their families killed under the Saddam Hussein regime. Now, the gun is in the other hand and there is payback in their hearts. Hell, who wouldn't want vengence? If your family was dragged off into the night and you never saw them until 15 years later when their remains were discovered in a mass grave with bullets in their eyes... now, you get the gun instead of them. How many can honestly say they would say, "I forgive you... let's make this country for all of us". I know I would probably go gunning for the bastards for payback.
The American troops are caught in the Middle. They cannot choose a side... siding with Sunnis would go against the Shi'ite Majority in Iraq... and siding with the Shi'ites would alienate the Sunni nations in the region, such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt (plus, we would basically become and ally with Iran if we did).
...
Also, it wasn't just the Sunnis fighting the Americans in Iraq.... remember the fighting in Sadr City? Those were Muqtada al sadr's guys that took on the Americans. Al Sadr was smart and pulled back his forces, knowing that he would be able to gain control in a Democratic Election. Once in power, he could influence the government and simply tell the Americans they must leave. And he will tolerate the Americans as long as we keep trainning and arming his forces.
When the Iraqi Government finally tells us to leave... including abandoning our forward base of operations we are setting up over there... what can we do? Refuse to leave?
We're fucked... WE ARE FUCKED. And if there is anyone to specifically blame... it is President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Secretary Rumsfeld and Secretary Rice that bear the responsibility for all of those U.S. soldier and Iraqi lives. They have the authority, they made the decision... they should hold the responsibility and be held accountable for their actions. The American people are responsible because we allowed them to get away with it.

I agree with you.

citizen_drew

After all the work the intelligence communities did to get us there, I don’t see us leaving.
I also tend to believe the republic wants to keep the Chinese and Russians out, as much as hoard the natural resources for ourselves…In that respect the string pullers probably view this as winning...

What’s a citizen to do?