...
We already KNOW there will be more killing... whenever we leave... whether it's tomorrow, next year or 10 years from now. In the maentime... the killing continues.
Do you believe these guys will ever stop killing each other? Their justification is Vengence. The killing will stop once the vengence goes away. How long is that going to take.
So you are saying that you do indeed support a plan that would lead immediately to more deaths?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
So you are saying that you do indeed support a plan that would lead immediately to more deaths?
How do you know that withdrawal will lead to moke killing?
People are dying because of and inspite of American presense. 600,000 people dead so far, in 3 years. That's 200,000 a year. 1/3 of those deaths were directly afflicted byt the US troops. The troops leaves, maybe the civil war doesn't end, but 1/3 less people would die.
How do you know that withdrawal will lead to moke killing?
People are dying because of and inspite of American presense. 600,000 people dead so far, in 3 years. That's 200,000 a year. 1/3 of those deaths were directly afflicted byt the US troops. The troops leaves, maybe the civil war doesn't end, but 1/3 less people would die.
I don't, but I was responding to Cosmo's comment indicating that it would lead to more deaths. Read back though...
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
So you are saying that you do indeed support a plan that would lead immediately to more deaths?
...
I'm saying ANY plan we come up to would lead to more deaths...
Doing what we are currently doing... more deaths.
Leaving today... more deaths.
Leaving next year (and during the period prior to our leaving)... more deaths.
Leaving 10 years from now... see above.
...
If we get serious and send in the additional 150,000 troops needed to seal the borders, protect the oil fields and pipelines, patrol the rivers, weed out the current Iraqi Security Forces of Shi'ite and Sunni militia men... we will end up killing a ton in the process.
Anyway you look at it... more deaths are in Iraq's future.
The only no death possibility... Shi'ites and Sunnis give up their religious differences and accept each other as fellow Muslims.
That ain't going to happen until Pat Robertson actually DOES leg press 2,000 pounds.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
I'm saying ANY plan we come up to would lead to more deaths...
Doing what we are currently doing... more deaths.
Leaving today... more deaths.
Leaving next year (and during the period prior to our leaving)... more deaths.
Leaving 10 years from now... see above.
...
If we get serious and send in the additional 150,000 troops needed to seal the borders, protect the oil fields and pipelines, patrol the rivers, weed out the current Iraqi Security Forces of Shi'ite and Sunni militia men... we will end up killing a ton in the process.
Anyway you look at it... more deaths are in Iraq's future.
The only no death possibility... Shi'ites and Sunnis give up their religious differences and accept each other as fellow Muslims.
That ain't going to happen until Pat Robertson actually DOES leg press 2,000 pounds.
I guess when I say "more deaths" I mean it like this:
In Plan A, 500 people would die in the next 5 years
In Plan B, 2000 people would die in the next 5 years
I would vote for Plan A every time, but it seems as if you are indicating that there would be scenarios where you would vote for Plan B.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
...
The only no death possibility... Shi'ites and Sunnis give up their religious differences and accept each other as fellow Muslims.
So you're saying all of this is the Iraqi's fault?
Do you remember that all of this started with the Sunnis opposing the US presence, and then the US using the largely Shia militias to stop the Sunnis? Then the Sunnis starting attacking the Shias in response. And you get what you have now.
So you're saying all of this is the Iraqi's fault?
Do you remember that all of this started with the Sunnis opposing the US presence, and then the US using the largely Shia militias to stop the Sunnis? Then the Sunnis starting attacking the Shias in response. And you get what you have now.
Iraq is an imperially created nation.....the mapmakers of the West (and just the United States) drew up the map and said this plot of land is Iraq. It did not matter to the mapmakers that this "nation" was composed of three different ethnic groups who did not get along ......so yes, it is the West's fault for part of the situation. The hate between the ethnic groups that make up what is Iraq is the fault of the ethnic groups themselves. The Sunni/Shia disagreement is one of the reasons that Iraq and Iran had a little war a couple of decades back, so this propensity towards sectarian violence between Sunni and Shia is not isolated to Iraq.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
So you're saying all of this is the Iraqi's fault?
Do you remember that all of this started with the Sunnis opposing the US presence, and then the US using the largely Shia militias to stop the Sunnis? Then the Sunnis starting attacking the Shias in response. And you get what you have now.
...
No... I am an American that believes in taking full responsibility for my actions. These deaths are a direct result with our involvement in Iraq. If we weren't there in the first place... none of this would have happened.
I'm saying that the current sectarian violence has evolved into a Civil War. The Shi'ites have been oppressed for the past 30 years and have seen many of their families killed under the Saddam Hussein regime. Now, the gun is in the other hand and there is payback in their hearts. Hell, who wouldn't want vengence? If your family was dragged off into the night and you never saw them until 15 years later when their remains were discovered in a mass grave with bullets in their eyes... now, you get the gun instead of them. How many can honestly say they would say, "I forgive you... let's make this country for all of us". I know I would probably go gunning for the bastards for payback.
The American troops are caught in the Middle. They cannot choose a side... siding with Sunnis would go against the Shi'ite Majority in Iraq... and siding with the Shi'ites would alienate the Sunni nations in the region, such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt (plus, we would basically become and ally with Iran if we did).
...
Also, it wasn't just the Sunnis fighting the Americans in Iraq.... remember the fighting in Sadr City? Those were Muqtada al sadr's guys that took on the Americans. Al Sadr was smart and pulled back his forces, knowing that he would be able to gain control in a Democratic Election. Once in power, he could influence the government and simply tell the Americans they must leave. And he will tolerate the Americans as long as we keep trainning and arming his forces.
When the Iraqi Government finally tells us to leave... including abandoning our forward base of operations we are setting up over there... what can we do? Refuse to leave?
We're fucked... WE ARE FUCKED. And if there is anyone to specifically blame... it is President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Secretary Rumsfeld and Secretary Rice that bear the responsibility for all of those U.S. soldier and Iraqi lives. They have the authority, they made the decision... they should hold the responsibility and be held accountable for their actions. The American people are responsible because we allowed them to get away with it.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
No... I am an American that believes in taking full responsibility for my actions. These deaths are a direct result with our involvement in Iraq. If we weren't there in the first place... none of this would have happened.
I'm saying that the current sectarian violence has evolved into a Civil War. The Shi'ites have been oppressed for the past 30 years and have seen many of their families killed under the Saddam Hussein regime. Now, the gun is in the other hand and there is payback in their hearts. Hell, who wouldn't want vengence? If your family was dragged off into the night and you never saw them until 15 years later when their remains were discovered in a mass grave with bullets in their eyes... now, you get the gun instead of them. How many can honestly say they would say, "I forgive you... let's make this country for all of us". I know I would probably go gunning for the bastards for payback.
The American troops are caught in the Middle. They cannot choose a side... siding with Sunnis would go against the Shi'ite Majority in Iraq... and siding with the Shi'ites would alienate the Sunni nations in the region, such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt (plus, we would basically become and ally with Iran if we did).
...
Also, it wasn't just the Sunnis fighting the Americans in Iraq.... remember the fighting in Sadr City? Those were Muqtada al sadr's guys that took on the Americans. Al Sadr was smart and pulled back his forces, knowing that he would be able to gain control in a Democratic Election. Once in power, he could influence the government and simply tell the Americans they must leave. And he will tolerate the Americans as long as we keep trainning and arming his forces.
When the Iraqi Government finally tells us to leave... including abandoning our forward base of operations we are setting up over there... what can we do? Refuse to leave?
We're fucked... WE ARE FUCKED. And if there is anyone to specifically blame... it is President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Secretary Rumsfeld and Secretary Rice that bear the responsibility for all of those U.S. soldier and Iraqi lives. They have the authority, they made the decision... they should hold the responsibility and be held accountable for their actions. The American people are responsible because we allowed them to get away with it.
After all the work the intelligence communities did to get us there, I don’t see us leaving.
I also tend to believe the republic wants to keep the Chinese and Russians out, as much as hoard the natural resources for ourselves…In that respect the string pullers probably view this as winning...
After all the work the intelligence communities did to get us there, I don’t see us leaving.
I also tend to believe the republic wants to keep the Chinese and Russians out, as much as hoard the natural resources for ourselves…In that respect the string pullers probably view this as winning...
What’s a citizen to do?
...
actually... it was the Administration that worked the intelligence to justify the war that got us involved in the first place: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/
...
And I agree... it is a power play to secure the vital strategic resource than all mechanized modern armies need in order to wage a war. All jets, tanks and trucks run on petroleum based fuels. You cannot wage a war without fuel.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
So you are saying that you do indeed support a plan that would lead immediately to more deaths?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
People are dying because of and inspite of American presense. 600,000 people dead so far, in 3 years. That's 200,000 a year. 1/3 of those deaths were directly afflicted byt the US troops. The troops leaves, maybe the civil war doesn't end, but 1/3 less people would die.
I don't, but I was responding to Cosmo's comment indicating that it would lead to more deaths. Read back though...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I'm saying ANY plan we come up to would lead to more deaths...
Doing what we are currently doing... more deaths.
Leaving today... more deaths.
Leaving next year (and during the period prior to our leaving)... more deaths.
Leaving 10 years from now... see above.
...
If we get serious and send in the additional 150,000 troops needed to seal the borders, protect the oil fields and pipelines, patrol the rivers, weed out the current Iraqi Security Forces of Shi'ite and Sunni militia men... we will end up killing a ton in the process.
Anyway you look at it... more deaths are in Iraq's future.
The only no death possibility... Shi'ites and Sunnis give up their religious differences and accept each other as fellow Muslims.
That ain't going to happen until Pat Robertson actually DOES leg press 2,000 pounds.
Hail, Hail!!!
I guess when I say "more deaths" I mean it like this:
In Plan A, 500 people would die in the next 5 years
In Plan B, 2000 people would die in the next 5 years
I would vote for Plan A every time, but it seems as if you are indicating that there would be scenarios where you would vote for Plan B.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Do you remember that all of this started with the Sunnis opposing the US presence, and then the US using the largely Shia militias to stop the Sunnis? Then the Sunnis starting attacking the Shias in response. And you get what you have now.
No... I am an American that believes in taking full responsibility for my actions. These deaths are a direct result with our involvement in Iraq. If we weren't there in the first place... none of this would have happened.
I'm saying that the current sectarian violence has evolved into a Civil War. The Shi'ites have been oppressed for the past 30 years and have seen many of their families killed under the Saddam Hussein regime. Now, the gun is in the other hand and there is payback in their hearts. Hell, who wouldn't want vengence? If your family was dragged off into the night and you never saw them until 15 years later when their remains were discovered in a mass grave with bullets in their eyes... now, you get the gun instead of them. How many can honestly say they would say, "I forgive you... let's make this country for all of us". I know I would probably go gunning for the bastards for payback.
The American troops are caught in the Middle. They cannot choose a side... siding with Sunnis would go against the Shi'ite Majority in Iraq... and siding with the Shi'ites would alienate the Sunni nations in the region, such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt (plus, we would basically become and ally with Iran if we did).
...
Also, it wasn't just the Sunnis fighting the Americans in Iraq.... remember the fighting in Sadr City? Those were Muqtada al sadr's guys that took on the Americans. Al Sadr was smart and pulled back his forces, knowing that he would be able to gain control in a Democratic Election. Once in power, he could influence the government and simply tell the Americans they must leave. And he will tolerate the Americans as long as we keep trainning and arming his forces.
When the Iraqi Government finally tells us to leave... including abandoning our forward base of operations we are setting up over there... what can we do? Refuse to leave?
We're fucked... WE ARE FUCKED. And if there is anyone to specifically blame... it is President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Secretary Rumsfeld and Secretary Rice that bear the responsibility for all of those U.S. soldier and Iraqi lives. They have the authority, they made the decision... they should hold the responsibility and be held accountable for their actions. The American people are responsible because we allowed them to get away with it.
Hail, Hail!!!
I agree with you.
I also tend to believe the republic wants to keep the Chinese and Russians out, as much as hoard the natural resources for ourselves…In that respect the string pullers probably view this as winning...
What’s a citizen to do?
actually... it was the Administration that worked the intelligence to justify the war that got us involved in the first place:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/
...
And I agree... it is a power play to secure the vital strategic resource than all mechanized modern armies need in order to wage a war. All jets, tanks and trucks run on petroleum based fuels. You cannot wage a war without fuel.
Hail, Hail!!!