If Nader has no chance of winning, it's because people prefer to support candidates who are so principled, they go back on their word about their campaign funding. Your point about Nader building a third party was addressed fairly thoroughly in a thread a few pages back.
actually, it never really was. it's a long thread...filled with a whole not of nothing. just saying....
however, since that is not the topic of this thread.....i agree it's a shame obama changed his mind, but to me, it's simply strategy. i don't look at it as a bad sign of him being unprincipled, nor anything like that. i consider it a pragmatic move. sure, you can call him playing the politician, but again.....i personally don't take issue with that. i am not against playing the game if that is what needs to be done to get in office. i am not suggesting do ANYthing to win and that's all that matters....but rethinking your choice or position on something...not necessarily a bad thing.
obviously, it may be a big deal to other people..perhaps it will cost him some votes? who knows...however, i would think he's considered all this and still thinks this is the way to go. we all have that choice - him to change his mind, us to vote.
btw - i don't look at it as 'excusing' at all. i am making my own personal judgement on it as everyone can do the same. obama will feel whatever consequences of his actions the voters see fit, as it should be.
In this thread Obama is excused because that is just how the game is played, unfortunately. In the thread about the Muslim women not being part of the photo op it was excused because that is how the game is played. Unfortunately, it sounds like he wants to be a great player of the game rather than an principled leader. Too bad. I think principles are much more important that gamesmanship.
Exactly! Where is all this change we can believe in again?
I wonder if this is how he will be treated once in office....no matter what goes down, it will all be part of Obama 'playing the game he has to play'. And isn't GW playing the same game? No free passes for him, I guess.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Exactly! Where is all this change we can believe in again?
I wonder if this is how he will be treated once in office....no matter what goes down, it will all be part of Obama 'playing the game he has to play'. And isn't GW playing the same game? No free passes for him, I guess.
personally, i don't see it the same at all. once in office...no gmae to play, except what YOU want to accomplish. yes, certainly one has to work with others, compromise at times, etc......but to me, that's the whole point of playing the game while a candidate...to WIN, to get in office...so you CAN be a part of creating the change you want to see in this country. however, i respect we all see that differently.
one is a candidate...the other an already elected official. i don't see 'free passes' for anyone.
personally, i don't see it the same at all. once in office...no gmae to play, except what YOU want to accomplish. yes, certainly one has to work with others, compromise at times, etc......but to me, that's the whole point of playing the game while a candidate...to WIN, to get in office...so you CAN be a part of creating the change you want to see in this country. however, i respect we all see that differently.
one is a candidate...the other an already elected official. i don't see 'free passes' for anyone.
How you conduct yourself should remain around the same if you're living through your principles. You don't just throw those out when it's convenient for you to do so.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I wonder if the people who excuse Obama changing his mind on this also excused Hilary for deciding to campaign in Florida? That was just strategy, right?
ahhh, no not the same thing at all. Hillary actually lied. not only campaigning in Florida, but she also kept her name on the Michigan ballot after promising to take it off, then when asked why, she said she didn't take it off because "Everybody knew the primary was not going to cout for anything" and then after she was behind, decided to make an issue about counting them, even though Obama took his name off, as promised, and got no delegates. that is sneaky and underhanded. it shows that the whole time she was doing it as a calculated move to try to get deligates in a state where Obama got none, so she lied when she said that she ddin't take her name off because it wasn't going to count. that was an actual lie.
Obama has done nothing like that. He decided to change and he informed all of his saupporters in advance that he was switching strategies, and he is not moving from doing something pricipled to something unprincipled, he is still only taking contributions directly from the people. If he had decided to go back on that and take lobbyist money, then i'd have a real problem. that would be a real issue that impacts us.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest."
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
personally, i don't see it the same at all. once in office...no gmae to play, except what YOU want to accomplish. yes, certainly one has to work with others, compromise at times, etc......but to me, that's the whole point of playing the game while a candidate...to WIN, to get in office...so you CAN be a part of creating the change you want to see in this country. however, i respect we all see that differently.
one is a candidate...the other an already elected official. i don't see 'free passes' for anyone.
I couldn't agree more.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest."
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
How you conduct yourself should remain the around same at all times if you're living through your principles. You don't just throw those out when it's convenient for you to do so.
you'll have to explain what exactly is unprincipled about saying "sorry, i've decided to keep raising money the way i've been doing it, from small donations made people all over the coutry. We'll be able to raise more this way and we'll be beter prepared to go up against the republican smear machine" I applaud him for doing it. He's not tying to be sneaky, he's trying to not be at a disadvantage when the RNC goes on the attack. At least he's No john Kerry, knuckling under to the republicans.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest."
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
How you conduct yourself should remain the around same at all times if you're living through your principles. You don't just throw those out when it's convenient for you to do so.
i agree.
however, i don't necessarily see it as a matter of principle here. that's my point. however, i most definitely see things in many shades of grey. i don't think obama in this instance is not 'living through his principles'.....i see him changing his mind, making a new judgement call...of what will best serve his campaign, and the country. i think the idea might be of serving the 'greater good'......getting elected, if that's what you personally think will be the best outcome - yes, ofr yourself, but also to serve the american people. again, i don't have a problem with that. if you view it as bending or breaking his priniciples, so be it, but i do not.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I have no interest in arguing about it, i feel the way i feel and you feel the way you feel. One thing is clear, though, there are two guys wth a shot at being president in 2008. Obama and Mccain. Between those two, the choice is clear. I'll sleep fine at night knowing i voted for Obama.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest."
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
"It's not an easy decision, and especially because I support a robust system of public financing of elections," Obama told supporters in a video message Thursday. "But the public financing of presidential elections as it exists today is broken, and we face opponents who've become masters at gaming this broken system."
sounds like a perfectly reasonable and plausible explanation. i have no problem with it.
If Obama had to crack an old woman's neck in order to keep in 'the game' his supporters would probably find a way to excuse that as well.
It's amazing to witness how brainwashed people can be.
If Obama had to crack an old woman's neck in order to keep in 'the game' his supporters would probably find a way to excuse that as well.
It's amazing to witness how brainwashed people can be.
Brainwashed?
let me lay this out for you real simple
1. McCain first agreed to public financing in the primaries
2. McCain, during the primaries, goes to a bank and gets a loan backed up by the 84 mil. guarenteed by the public finacing
3. Obama says he will CONSIDER taking public financing as long as he has assurances from the opponent (not yet known when he said this during the primaries) that they will do the same.
4. McCain begins to raise more money and decides to opt out of public financing, while it was still on record with the bank that gave him a loan that he was guarenteed the 84 mil from public financing.
5. Once they were both declared the nominees, McCain apparently opts back in , but Obama sends his lawyers to meet with McCains lawyers to iron out an agreement and McCains lawyers do not cooperate and both parties leave without a deal.
6. Obama decides that they are gaming the system and that he'd be better off raising his money on his own and he knows that it's not just the 84 mil that McCain gets, it's also the $250 mil tht the RNC has already said they will spend on 527's. and Obama can probably match that raising the money on his own.
what don't you understand about that? you make a comment like people are brainwashed but you brought nothing to the conversation.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest."
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
personally, i don't see it the same at all. once in office...no gmae to play, except what YOU want to accomplish. yes, certainly one has to work with others, compromise at times, etc......but to me, that's the whole point of playing the game while a candidate...to WIN, to get in office...so you CAN be a part of creating the change you want to see in this country. however, i respect we all see that differently.
one is a candidate...the other an already elected official. i don't see 'free passes' for anyone.
yeah, i'm sure the millions of corporate contributions won't come into play
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
look, i don't have any personal problem with Nader but i don't live in a pie in the sky world, I live in the real world. he's got no chance of winning. Obama may not be the most progressive guy in the world, but he's a zillion times more principled, inhtelligent, and capable than john "Bomb Bomb iran" Mccain. And while i think a viable third party is a great idea, i really don't see where nader has been working so hard in non election years to help create and nurture a viable third party, I just see him pop up in election years.
ok, so he's better than mccain, so what?? that's not very hard.
and nader is always working, he just dones' pop up every 304 years, that has been debunked here several times
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
yeah, i'm sure the millions of corporate contributions won't come into play
corporate contributions to whom exactly? Barack Obama hasn't taken any in the primaries and won't in the general. the largest donation he can take is $2300 and that doesn't get you very far if you're looking for favors.
If Nader could pick up more than 2% of the vots maybe i'd vote for him but since the only real choices we have are Mccain and Obama, i'll choose Obama. and not because he's the lesser evil, but because i think he has the courage and conviction to try to actually DO something for the middle class.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest."
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
corporate contributions to whom exactly? Barack Obama hasn't taken any in the primaries and won't in the general. the largest donation he can take is $2300 and that doesn't get you very far if you're looking for favors.
did you look at the link i posted a few days ago to you in this thread?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
did you look at the link i posted a few days ago to you in this thread?
yes, thank you. I just did and I have to admit this is just another thing that is making me take a different look at Obama. I suppose i was guilty of not diggign deep enough for information.
I listen to progressive radio stations a lot and i never hear any mention of those numbers, which also makes me sad. You would think you'd get more accurate information from them than you get from network news stations or right wing talk stations, but I suppose they are no different, glossing right over stuff that doesn't reflect well on their candidate.
I'm also not happy with his position on the revised fisa bill or his continual denial that he's a Muslim without having the stones to say make a public statement that there is absolutely nothnig wrong with beign a muslim, which has angered the muslim community.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest."
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
(The World has come Undone like to change it everyday)
maybe a vote for no one is a Vote for freedom
I know its not Obama
maybe i'm naive, but i still don't think Obama is as married to corporations as McCain. He's better for labor unions and he's for a fairer tax code. and regarding personal rights and scientific reesearch, he's for stem cell research and he won't try to overturn Rowe V Wade. there are still plenty of reasons why i'll vote for him over Mccain but he's not the great change agent he has billed himself as if he's still taking big donations from corporate interests. (We still need clarity on whether those donations are coming directly from the corporations or from individuals working for those corporations because they ask where you work when you donate and i know i've seen instances where they ahve counted personal donations made by emplyees of a company as company donations)
I really do wish Nader could pick up more than 4% of the vote, but I have to give my vote to the guy with a chance to win. Mccain getting in will only make things a lot worse. sorry but that's the way i see it.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest."
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
did you look at the link i posted a few days ago to you in this thread?
one question. regarding the list of corporate donors, are you differentiating between donations made by the actual corporation itself and donations made by individuals who work for these corporations? because some of the numbers I've seen on that suggest that they are counting danations made by people who work for a company as donations from that company. Just trying to clarify...my brain
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest."
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
maybe i'm naive, but i still don't think Obama is as married to corporations as McCain. He's better for labor unions and he's for a fairer tax code. and regarding personal rights and scientific reesearch, he's for stem cell research and he won't try to overturn Rowe V Wade. there are still plenty of reasons why i'll vote for him over Mccain but he's not the great change agent he has billed himself as if he's still taking big donations from corporate interests. (We still need clarity on whether those donations are coming directly from the corporations or from individuals working for those corporations because they ask where you work when you donate and i know i've seen instances where they ahve counted personal donations made by emplyees of a company as company donations)
I really do wish Nader could pick up more than 4% of the vote, but I have to give my vote to the guy with a chance to win. Mccain getting in will only make things a lot worse. sorry but that's the way i see it.
McCain and Obama are both tied to corporation, you can't get to teh point where they are now without that. Labor unions are not that great and might be a reason why jobs are being shipped out of the country. Mccain wants tax breaks and simple tax codes. McCain has gotten into big fights with hsi base about stem cell. you right on teh rowe vs wade, but there is an argument that says that the Federal government should be apart of that and that it should be left for the states to decided. now lets see the similarties: both we keep troops in Iraq (but one person it actually saying that, while teh other one IMO is knowing that but not saying that).
wow that really the only similarties: what a choice you guys have. the questions now is who can actually do what they are saying?
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
one question. regarding the list of corporate donors, are you differentiating between donations made by the actual corporation itself and donations made by individuals who work for these corporations? because some of the numbers I've seen on that suggest that they are counting danations made by people who work for a company as donations from that company. Just trying to clarify...my brain
Your analysis is correct, these numbers are drawn from donations made by individuals who work for the listed companies - though there is an argument to be made that these individuals are coordinating their donations (and I'm absolutely sure you'll hear that argument).
McCain and Obama are both tied to corporation, you can't get to teh point where they are now without that. Labor unions are not that great and might be a reason why jobs are being shipped out of the country. Mccain wants tax breaks and simple tax codes. McCain has gotten into big fights with hsi base about stem cell. you right on teh rowe vs wade, but there is an argument that says that the Federal government should be apart of that and that it should be left for the states to decided. now lets see the similarties: both we keep troops in Iraq (but one person it actually saying that, while teh other one IMO is knowing that but not saying that).
wow that really the only similarties: what a choice you guys have. the questions now is who can actually do what they are saying?
I don't think you can balme labor unions for shipping jobs overseas. the company nkows they have a mcuh cheaper labor force over there. are American workers supposed to work for $2 an hour? labor unions are bad when they are corrupted but labor unions gave us minimum wage, child labor laws, a two day weekend, a 40 hour work week, lots of things we take for granted.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest."
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
I don't think you can balme labor unions for shipping jobs overseas. the company nkows they have a mcuh cheaper labor force over there. are American workers supposed to work for $2 an hour? labor unions are bad when they are corrupted but labor unions gave us minimum wage, child labor laws, a two day weekend, a 40 hour work week, lots of things we take for granted.
i agree with you about the good things that unions have done. but i also say that Unions (atleast in my country Canada) have gotten to the point where they are too powerful and instead of looking for what is best for the bussiness and teh workers all they care abotu are teh workers. here in Canada, we have autoplants closing and people losing lobs left right and centre and one main concern that the unions always bring up is wages.
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
Based on their "stated" goals, I'd rather nothing happen in the next four years under an Obama administration than anything happen under a McCain one.
so you want 4 more years of bush right? becuase using that logic, if Obama does nothing than we still haev Bush policies going on.
also, what stated goals do you mean? it seems to m ethat people now only want change but could care less what that change is. rather shortsighted would you not say.
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
so you want 4 more years of bush right? becuase using that logic, if Obama does nothing than we still haev Bush policies going on.
also, what stated goals do you mean? it seems to m ethat people now only want change but could care less what that change is. rather shortsighted would you not say.
You're kinda speaking for me there. No, I don't want 4 more years of Bush, which is one of the reasons I don't want McCain (yes, yes, they're not the same - but in regards to foreign policy, they are).
I mean that I would rather Obama fail at trying to implement his stated goals (withdraw from Iraq - diplomatic talks with places like Iran - reassessment of oil company taxes - etc.) than McCain succeed in implementing his stated goals (continued combat presence in Iraq - no diplomacy with places like Iran - increased oil company profits through deregulation of our drilling laws - etc.).
My sight is pretty keen, actually. In 33 years, I've never needed glasses.
so you want 4 more years of bush right? becuase using that logic, if Obama does nothing than we still haev Bush policies going on.
also, what stated goals do you mean? it seems to m ethat people now only want change but could care less what that change is. rather shortsighted would you not say.
I don't like a guy who says "i hate gooks" and "Bomb bomb bomb...bomb bomb iran" is if it'sa big joke. we've had enough of that kind of crap with bush. you may not like Obama but he's no war monger or a functionally illiterate frat boy. Obama would be a welcome change from that.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest."
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
let's not forget that one of McCains cheif advisors is Phil Graham, the same idiot that was the architect of the current housing crisis, alowing lendign institutions to make loans based on stated income and then sell those loans to investment banks. and i belive he was also instrumental in the deregulation of the energy markets that gave us Enron. Is this what we want more of?
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest."
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
Comments
actually, it never really was. it's a long thread...filled with a whole not of nothing. just saying....
however, since that is not the topic of this thread.....i agree it's a shame obama changed his mind, but to me, it's simply strategy. i don't look at it as a bad sign of him being unprincipled, nor anything like that. i consider it a pragmatic move. sure, you can call him playing the politician, but again.....i personally don't take issue with that. i am not against playing the game if that is what needs to be done to get in office. i am not suggesting do ANYthing to win and that's all that matters....but rethinking your choice or position on something...not necessarily a bad thing.
obviously, it may be a big deal to other people..perhaps it will cost him some votes? who knows...however, i would think he's considered all this and still thinks this is the way to go. we all have that choice - him to change his mind, us to vote.
btw - i don't look at it as 'excusing' at all. i am making my own personal judgement on it as everyone can do the same. obama will feel whatever consequences of his actions the voters see fit, as it should be.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Exactly! Where is all this change we can believe in again?
I wonder if this is how he will be treated once in office....no matter what goes down, it will all be part of Obama 'playing the game he has to play'. And isn't GW playing the same game? No free passes for him, I guess.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
personally, i don't see it the same at all. once in office...no gmae to play, except what YOU want to accomplish. yes, certainly one has to work with others, compromise at times, etc......but to me, that's the whole point of playing the game while a candidate...to WIN, to get in office...so you CAN be a part of creating the change you want to see in this country. however, i respect we all see that differently.
one is a candidate...the other an already elected official. i don't see 'free passes' for anyone.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
How you conduct yourself should remain around the same if you're living through your principles. You don't just throw those out when it's convenient for you to do so.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Obama has done nothing like that. He decided to change and he informed all of his saupporters in advance that he was switching strategies, and he is not moving from doing something pricipled to something unprincipled, he is still only taking contributions directly from the people. If he had decided to go back on that and take lobbyist money, then i'd have a real problem. that would be a real issue that impacts us.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
- Ben Franklin
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
- Ben Franklin
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
- Ben Franklin
i agree.
however, i don't necessarily see it as a matter of principle here. that's my point. however, i most definitely see things in many shades of grey. i don't think obama in this instance is not 'living through his principles'.....i see him changing his mind, making a new judgement call...of what will best serve his campaign, and the country. i think the idea might be of serving the 'greater good'......getting elected, if that's what you personally think will be the best outcome - yes, ofr yourself, but also to serve the american people. again, i don't have a problem with that. if you view it as bending or breaking his priniciples, so be it, but i do not.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
- Ben Franklin
It's amazing to witness how brainwashed people can be.
Brainwashed?
let me lay this out for you real simple
1. McCain first agreed to public financing in the primaries
2. McCain, during the primaries, goes to a bank and gets a loan backed up by the 84 mil. guarenteed by the public finacing
3. Obama says he will CONSIDER taking public financing as long as he has assurances from the opponent (not yet known when he said this during the primaries) that they will do the same.
4. McCain begins to raise more money and decides to opt out of public financing, while it was still on record with the bank that gave him a loan that he was guarenteed the 84 mil from public financing.
5. Once they were both declared the nominees, McCain apparently opts back in , but Obama sends his lawyers to meet with McCains lawyers to iron out an agreement and McCains lawyers do not cooperate and both parties leave without a deal.
6. Obama decides that they are gaming the system and that he'd be better off raising his money on his own and he knows that it's not just the 84 mil that McCain gets, it's also the $250 mil tht the RNC has already said they will spend on 527's. and Obama can probably match that raising the money on his own.
what don't you understand about that? you make a comment like people are brainwashed but you brought nothing to the conversation.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
- Ben Franklin
yeah, i'm sure the millions of corporate contributions won't come into play
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
ok, so he's better than mccain, so what?? that's not very hard.
and nader is always working, he just dones' pop up every 304 years, that has been debunked here several times
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
If Nader could pick up more than 2% of the vots maybe i'd vote for him but since the only real choices we have are Mccain and Obama, i'll choose Obama. and not because he's the lesser evil, but because i think he has the courage and conviction to try to actually DO something for the middle class.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
- Ben Franklin
It's got to start somewhere...and that somewhere is us.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=287709
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
did you look at the link i posted a few days ago to you in this thread?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I listen to progressive radio stations a lot and i never hear any mention of those numbers, which also makes me sad. You would think you'd get more accurate information from them than you get from network news stations or right wing talk stations, but I suppose they are no different, glossing right over stuff that doesn't reflect well on their candidate.
I'm also not happy with his position on the revised fisa bill or his continual denial that he's a Muslim without having the stones to say make a public statement that there is absolutely nothnig wrong with beign a muslim, which has angered the muslim community.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
- Ben Franklin
I'm going to a gathering for Obama supporters on the 28th and I do plan on bringing all of these things up.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
- Ben Franklin
(The World has come Undone like to change it everyday)
maybe a vote for no one is a Vote for freedom
I know its not Obama
PEARL JAM~San Antonio, TX. 4~5~03
INCUBUS~Houston, TX. 1~19~07
INCUBUS~Denver, CO. 2~8~07
Lollapalooza~Chicago, IL. 8~5~07
INCUBUS~Austin, TX. 9~3~07
Bonnaroo~Manchester, TN 6~14~08
maybe i'm naive, but i still don't think Obama is as married to corporations as McCain. He's better for labor unions and he's for a fairer tax code. and regarding personal rights and scientific reesearch, he's for stem cell research and he won't try to overturn Rowe V Wade. there are still plenty of reasons why i'll vote for him over Mccain but he's not the great change agent he has billed himself as if he's still taking big donations from corporate interests. (We still need clarity on whether those donations are coming directly from the corporations or from individuals working for those corporations because they ask where you work when you donate and i know i've seen instances where they ahve counted personal donations made by emplyees of a company as company donations)
I really do wish Nader could pick up more than 4% of the vote, but I have to give my vote to the guy with a chance to win. Mccain getting in will only make things a lot worse. sorry but that's the way i see it.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
- Ben Franklin
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
- Ben Franklin
McCain and Obama are both tied to corporation, you can't get to teh point where they are now without that. Labor unions are not that great and might be a reason why jobs are being shipped out of the country. Mccain wants tax breaks and simple tax codes. McCain has gotten into big fights with hsi base about stem cell. you right on teh rowe vs wade, but there is an argument that says that the Federal government should be apart of that and that it should be left for the states to decided. now lets see the similarties: both we keep troops in Iraq (but one person it actually saying that, while teh other one IMO is knowing that but not saying that).
wow that really the only similarties: what a choice you guys have. the questions now is who can actually do what they are saying?
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
I don't think you can balme labor unions for shipping jobs overseas. the company nkows they have a mcuh cheaper labor force over there. are American workers supposed to work for $2 an hour? labor unions are bad when they are corrupted but labor unions gave us minimum wage, child labor laws, a two day weekend, a 40 hour work week, lots of things we take for granted.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
- Ben Franklin
i agree with you about the good things that unions have done. but i also say that Unions (atleast in my country Canada) have gotten to the point where they are too powerful and instead of looking for what is best for the bussiness and teh workers all they care abotu are teh workers. here in Canada, we have autoplants closing and people losing lobs left right and centre and one main concern that the unions always bring up is wages.
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
so you want 4 more years of bush right? becuase using that logic, if Obama does nothing than we still haev Bush policies going on.
also, what stated goals do you mean? it seems to m ethat people now only want change but could care less what that change is. rather shortsighted would you not say.
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
I mean that I would rather Obama fail at trying to implement his stated goals (withdraw from Iraq - diplomatic talks with places like Iran - reassessment of oil company taxes - etc.) than McCain succeed in implementing his stated goals (continued combat presence in Iraq - no diplomacy with places like Iran - increased oil company profits through deregulation of our drilling laws - etc.).
My sight is pretty keen, actually. In 33 years, I've never needed glasses.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
- Ben Franklin
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
- Ben Franklin