This thread has me 'reading up' on some unexplained phenomena.
Here is an interesting article on near death experiences. It seems like the more research that is done, the more strange the findings seem. Some researchers have even concluded that an explanation should be sought in the 'trancendence of consciousness' idea, because other 'mundane' explanations no longer seem sufficient to explain them.
thanks baraka.
I've finished watching Dr Newberg and I've read the first article you posted here. I attempted to read the first one on meditation but I gotta stop now, coz I think I've got brain overload!!
I'll have another go at it tomorrow.
It's all very interesting though.
I'd particularly like to get my hands on a copy of Why God Won't Go Away.
Sounds very interesting.
I'm really looking forward to scientists doing more studies in this area and eventually coming to a more inclusive consensus.
I liked what Dr Newberg said about the intensity of the experience being more vivid than the usual experience. I've found I really identified with that.
As though time has slowed down and everything is etched more firmly in my brain.
There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
Wow! That's quite the experience Ms H.
Isn't it interesting how we try so hard to explain these things in our minds?
I can't really be sure, if I haven't filtered my experiences over the years, each time I've gone over them. I'm sure I probably have actually. But something happened. That's for sure. Same as something happened to you.
It's interesting how your grandfather came, and helped because you were scared of your father. That's a really cool story. Thanks for sharing.
PS: I got you a card. Finally!!! And I promise to write tomorrow. Sorry that I'm soo slow.
After debating a lot about spirituality and transcendental experiences in the last week, I now wanna hear from some of you about how you experience these things. Whether you are christian, pagan, muslim or whatever is not the point. I want to get at the core of these experiences. This could be interesting for all. I promise my motive is not to slam anyone or use it against them in any way, I am just curious really.
The times I have had experiences approximating what I think a religious experience must be like, it is usually just a great sense of connectedness between everything and myself, coupled with a sense of awe of the complexity of my surroundings. I also frequently get these flashes when listening to music, and some artists/songs in particular, coupled with intense emotions.
I dont have the expertise on these things, and I dont think I experience in full what some of you others may have experienced.
I want this thread to be open, and available to all to relate their experiences, compare to others and discuss them. I do fervently hope it doesn't become a slam-fest between those who have experienced something, and others believing them to be crazy. Some openminded debate and a collection of experiences. That's what I hope for.
Peace
Dan
The singing girl
A young girl lives alone. Walks through the city almost every night. She's a stranger to most. In the midnight weekends she shuts the world away and sings. Her song is like a mystery. Undescribable. Beautiful. Haunting. Hypnotic. She counts her blessings in them. She washes her sins away with them. Her songs are her salvation.
One night, as she walked alone through the city a man followed her to her home. She didn't notice. Completely oblivious to how her life would change in any moment. She walked into her home and her follower watched behind at a distance as she walked in. Her heart was sinking. For what her days had held for her simply weighed her to the point of breaking. But she didn't know that what would happen would be greater than those of her folly days.
The man approaches her apartment as soon as she closes the door behind her. She walkes into her bathroom. Disrobed. Crying. Shaken. Scared. But why, I could never know. The man watches through the window. Desperate. Vile. Untethered. He breaks in without a sound. Slowly walks behind her as she stands naked in front of her shower. Her thoughts consumed her deeply of regret and sorrow. As she is standing there, the man is behind breathing softly and patiently prepares to break every part of her innocence. Simultaneously, her feelings stream through her spine and down to her feet. The man slowly raises his hands towards her neck as she begins to sing. The song flowed through her throat in such a gifted way. She sang and sang with all of her being as she uttered these words:
Longer are the lonely nights that raise our head up high
Than those of the days that consume us of fear
It's alright, It's alright
Frozen and confused, the man stood astounded. He thought she had noticed him, but she did not turn. Her song just kept on playing. His feelings crept somewhere inside of him he didn't know existed. His vile desires had passed away, as he surrendered to a force that had saved this girl all her life.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
hey i wished all these threads were like these... thanks Dan.
as for my spritual experiences, they are very personal to me. i'm sure it's the same to those who believe they've had spiritual experiences. whenever i tell people about it they look at me like i'm nuts.
when my father was a pastor we'd have these experiences everytime in our church services. i mean the situations there were not like what you see on tv or how borat portrayed the pentecostal church service which i thought was hilarious. every wednesday nights we would gather at about 70 or 80 in a crowded little house and pray with the lights out. at first it was very unnerving and many questioned my dad why he would turn out the lights. many thought he was doing something that was innappropriate to the christian faith. but my father would simply say, "if you need to go home or have any other reason for not being here then you are free to do as you please." so gradually people were accepting and willing to stay. the first couple of months were very vague and boring. nothng but silence. i was about 14 and i myself would question why my dad would do such things. but then later someone would begin crying... except we didn't know who it was because the lights were out. so we'd just assume that the person was going through some tough times so he/she needed to pour their heart out to God or something. but later that wasn't entirely true cause gradually one after the other there would be what i can barely describe as a sweet weeping. it was a cry, but a beautiful cry. i don't know why or how but it was beautiful. even the children in the rooms that were being cared for would begin to weep with such profound sweet sorrow... it wasn't speaking in tognues... it was like what most would describe an epiphany, an ecstasy of some kind that everyone was experiencing. but literally everyone that was there... not a single soul would sit idle. even one person who was struggling with drug addictions and was involved with a gang lifestyle who didn't want anything to do with church, one day while we were all there weeping for reasons unknown to us approached my dad and kneeled next to him and started crying. and i remember clearly, everyone heard him say, "i don't know why. i never liked church but what i am feeling today is the greatest feeling i've ever had." this wasn't programmed by anyone or anything. it just flowed spontaneously. something that i wish i still were experiencing. i'm sure if anyone felt it... they would describe it as a knot on their chest, like a heavy feeling that almost rivals the feeling you get when you are madly in love or infatuated by someone.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
hey i wished all these threads were like these... thanks Dan.
as for my spritual experiences, they are very personal to me. i'm sure it's the same to those who believe they've had spiritual experiences. whenever i tell people about it they look at me like i'm nuts.
when my father was a pastor we'd have these experiences everytime in our church services. i mean the situations there were not like what you see on tv or how borat portrayed the pentecostal church service which i thought was hilarious. every wednesday nights we would gather at about 70 or 80 in a crowded little house and pray with the lights out. at first it was very unnerving and many questioned my dad why he would turn out the lights. many thought he was doing something that was innappropriate to the christian faith. but my father would simply say, "if you need to go home or have any other reason for not being here then you are free to do as you please." so gradually people were accepting and willing to stay. the first couple of months were very vague and boring. nothng but silence. i was about 14 and i myself would question why my dad would do such things. but then later someone would begin crying... except we didn't know who it was because the lights were out. so we'd just assume that the person was going through some tough times so he/she needed to pour their heart out to God or something. but later that wasn't entirely true cause gradually one after the other there would be what i can barely describe as a sweet weeping. it was a cry, but a beautiful cry. i don't know why or how but it was beautiful. even the children in the rooms that were being cared for would begin to weep with such profound sweet sorrow... it wasn't speaking in tognues... it was like what most would describe an epiphany, an ecstasy of some kind that everyone was experiencing. but literally everyone that was there... not a single soul would sit idle. even one person who was struggling with drug addictions and was involved with a gang lifestyle who didn't want anything to do with church, one day while we were all there weeping for reasons unknown to us approached my dad and kneeled next to him and started crying. and i remember clearly, everyone heard him say, "i don't know why. i never liked church but what i am feeling today is the greatest feeling i've ever had." this wasn't programmed by anyone or anything. it just flowed spontaneously. something that i wish i still were experiencing. i'm sure if anyone felt it... they would describe it as a knot on their chest, like a heavy feeling that almost rivals the feeling you get when you are madly in love or infatuated by someone.
thanks for sharing.
live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
yes cate, it was a very similar experience for me too.
I really struggled to even speak out loud what had happened to me because I was busy with my denial, and because I was surrounded by people that I was unaware had expectations of who I was, until I did try to put into words my experience. But like you I think, I have found that it is much better to accept the experience even if we can't explain it.
well it was my logical side coming out to hassle me that had me in denial. these days i manage to ignore my logical side with more success.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
This thread has me 'reading up' on some unexplained phenomena.
Here is an interesting article on near death experiences. It seems like the more research that is done, the more strange the findings seem. Some researchers have even concluded that an explanation should be sought in the 'trancendence of consciousness' idea, because other 'mundane' explanations no longer seem sufficient to explain them.
My problem with that is that it doesn't explain anything by any reasoning. For example if we say that consciousness transcends space and time after death, we are only speculating and there is no way of proving that. The only thing I see in that argument is ending debate. Like we could just say everything is determined by God and never investigate. When I look at the experiments that have been done on consciousness I don't see any evidence of transcendence. Even in Zen Meditation it shows a coherence of brain activity and specific wave patterns, but it doesn't show us any evidence of metaphysical phenomena. Stuart Hameroff argues for quantum indeterminacy in the microtubules and this quantum consciousness transcends the body after death. That sounds reasonable, but reasonable isn't enough. It's reasonable that people's experience of events is obscure. We need observable things, some way of guessing that isn't total speculation. What I've seen in research is that you can easily lose consciousness all together. That is observable every night we go to sleep. If consciousness in an alive state is entirely dependent on the brain, how can it transcend after death? See I think there is more evidence against a theory of transcendence than there is for it. Personal experience is great, especially if the individual is trained. Apparently Buddhist Monks achieve greater concentration and awareness of observation, I'd be for making them into scientists. But as a scientist, you do know that modern science has operational control mechanisms that prevent observer bias. I believe this is the reason that theories of transcendence haven't become popular.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
hey i wished all these threads were like these... thanks Dan.
as for my spritual experiences, they are very personal to me. i'm sure it's the same to those who believe they've had spiritual experiences. whenever i tell people about it they look at me like i'm nuts.
when my father was a pastor we'd have these experiences everytime in our church services. i mean the situations there were not like what you see on tv or how borat portrayed the pentecostal church service which i thought was hilarious. every wednesday nights we would gather at about 70 or 80 in a crowded little house and pray with the lights out. at first it was very unnerving and many questioned my dad why he would turn out the lights. many thought he was doing something that was innappropriate to the christian faith. but my father would simply say, "if you need to go home or have any other reason for not being here then you are free to do as you please." so gradually people were accepting and willing to stay. the first couple of months were very vague and boring. nothng but silence. i was about 14 and i myself would question why my dad would do such things. but then later someone would begin crying... except we didn't know who it was because the lights were out. so we'd just assume that the person was going through some tough times so he/she needed to pour their heart out to God or something. but later that wasn't entirely true cause gradually one after the other there would be what i can barely describe as a sweet weeping. it was a cry, but a beautiful cry. i don't know why or how but it was beautiful. even the children in the rooms that were being cared for would begin to weep with such profound sweet sorrow... it wasn't speaking in tognues... it was like what most would describe an epiphany, an ecstasy of some kind that everyone was experiencing. but literally everyone that was there... not a single soul would sit idle. even one person who was struggling with drug addictions and was involved with a gang lifestyle who didn't want anything to do with church, one day while we were all there weeping for reasons unknown to us approached my dad and kneeled next to him and started crying. and i remember clearly, everyone heard him say, "i don't know why. i never liked church but what i am feeling today is the greatest feeling i've ever had." this wasn't programmed by anyone or anything. it just flowed spontaneously. something that i wish i still were experiencing. i'm sure if anyone felt it... they would describe it as a knot on their chest, like a heavy feeling that almost rivals the feeling you get when you are madly in love or infatuated by someone.
Yes, thanks for sharing this.
There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
My problem with that is that it doesn't explain anything by any reasoning. For example if we say that consciousness transcends space and time after death, we are only speculating and there is no way of proving that. The only thing I see in that argument is ending debate. Like we could just say everything is determined by God and never investigate. When I look at the experiments that have been done on consciousness I don't see any evidence of transcendence. Even in Zen Meditation it shows a coherence of brain activity and specific wave patterns, but it doesn't show us any evidence of metaphysical phenomena. Stuart Hameroff argues for quantum indeterminacy in the microtubules and this quantum consciousness transcends the body after death. That sounds reasonable, but reasonable isn't enough. It's reasonable that people's experience of events is obscure. We need observable things, some way of guessing that isn't total speculation. What I've seen in research is that you can easily lose consciousness all together. That is observable every night we go to sleep. If consciousness in an alive state is entirely dependent on the brain, how can it transcend after death? See I think there is more evidence against a theory of transcendence than there is for it. Personal experience is great, especially if the individual is trained. Apparently Buddhist Monks achieve greater concentration and awareness of observation, I'd be for making them into scientists. But as a scientist, you do know that modern science has operational control mechanisms that prevent observer bias. I believe this is the reason that theories of transcendence haven't become popular.
..and for this thread, we focus on the personal experiences of the posters, not it's scientific validity. Sorry to come down on you Ahnimus, but I was hoping to avoid these dicussions in this thread. (this also goes for baraka)
The discussion you are beginning here is better located in the "holographic universe" or "scientist believing in god" threads. I want this thread to be as neutral as possible, and have people share their experiences. I can engage you in another thread about what you are laying out here. It is interesting, but it is also diverting this thread from it's purpose.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
My problem with that is that it doesn't explain anything by any reasoning. For example if we say that consciousness transcends space and time after death, we are only speculating and there is no way of proving that. The only thing I see in that argument is ending debate. Like we could just say everything is determined by God and never investigate. When I look at the experiments that have been done on consciousness I don't see any evidence of transcendence. Even in Zen Meditation it shows a coherence of brain activity and specific wave patterns, but it doesn't show us any evidence of metaphysical phenomena. Stuart Hameroff argues for quantum indeterminacy in the microtubules and this quantum consciousness transcends the body after death. That sounds reasonable, but reasonable isn't enough. It's reasonable that people's experience of events is obscure. We need observable things, some way of guessing that isn't total speculation. What I've seen in research is that you can easily lose consciousness all together. That is observable every night we go to sleep. If consciousness in an alive state is entirely dependent on the brain, how can it transcend after death? See I think there is more evidence against a theory of transcendence than there is for it. Personal experience is great, especially if the individual is trained. Apparently Buddhist Monks achieve greater concentration and awareness of observation, I'd be for making them into scientists. But as a scientist, you do know that modern science has operational control mechanisms that prevent observer bias. I believe this is the reason that theories of transcendence haven't become popular.
Well, this isn't a thread about 'proving' your experience was 'real'. Dan was clear about that when he started the thread. He (and rightly so) wanted folks to feel comfortable sharing their experience without others trying to 'undermine' them.
But just because some come to believe nothing is real except what can be externalized/objectified for observation by the masses doesn't mean everything that is real can be externalized/objectified. On the other hand, just because something can't be externalized/objectified, it doesn't mean we can't still apply the rule of developing our sense of certainty through repeated experience.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
..and for this thread, we focus on the personal experiences of the posters, not it's scientific validity. Sorry to come down on you Ahnimus, but I was hoping to avoid these dicussions in this thread. (this also goes for baraka)
The discussion you are beginning here is better located in the "holographic universe" or "scientist believing in god" threads. I want this thread to be as neutral as possible, and have people share their experiences. I can engage you in another thread about what you are laying out here. It is interesting, but it is also diverting this thread from it's purpose.
Peace
Dan
AH, you beat me to the punch and your scolding was duly noted.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Great post deadnothingbetter.
This is again exactly the stuff I'm after. I have many times witnessed religious ecstacy in people around me at revivals and whatnot, but I have never been part of or experienced it that way. Powerful stuff about the lights out.
For those of you who don't dare to post because you are worried about derision, I urge you to reconsider. This thread still hasn't succumbed to it, and it's been a full day. Besides, I'm hoping the topic line and initial post will keep the trolls out of here.
Keep going guys, you are wonderful so far.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Well, this isn't a thread about 'proving' your experience was 'real'. Dan was clear about that when he started the thread. He (and rightly so) wanted folks to feel comfortable sharing their experience without others trying to 'undermine' them.
But just because some come to believe nothing is real except what can be externalized/objectified for observation by the masses doesn't mean everything that is real can be externalized/objectified. On the other hand, just because something can't be externalized/objectified, it doesn't mean we can't still apply the rule of developing our sense of certainty through repeated experience.
You can also develop a mental illness.
But yea, I was responding to your science.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I'll give this one a last try. I thought it was shaping up to be something interesting, and it would be a pity if it just ended like this.
Consider this a bump, and a request for others to come share their experience(s).
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I'll give this one a last try. I thought it was shaping up to be something interesting, and it would be a pity if it just ended like this.
Consider this a bump, and a request for others to come share their experience(s).
Peace
Dan
I agree Dan, it's an awesome thread.
But I suspect that as the trolls have already been sniffing around that folks are prudently keeping their experiences to themselves.
I mean I have other experiences but I really don't need anymore shit from that direction at this point, and really I don't want this to be remembered as the "Jeanie is losing her marbles" thread.
When you have experienced that collective religious experience that you described a few posts back, would you say that it is similar to the whole Pearl Jam live experience? Because each and every time I've seen Pearl Jam the collective love and energy in the room has been so uplifting I've imagined that it is like a spiritual experience not unsimilar to what people experience at revival type churches.
'Mental Illness' is only a category created by modern Medicalisation to make everyone think the way professional institutions would like us to think. It makes it easier to objectify and normalise behaviour, and then stigmatise whoever doesn't adhere to it. The same thing is true of the term 'disability'.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
I agree Dan, it's an thread.
But I suspect that as the trolls have already been sniffing around that folks are prudently keeping their experiences to themselves.
I mean I have other experiences but I really don't need anymore shit from that direction at this point, and really I don't want this to be rembered as the "Jeanie is losing her marbles" thread.
When you have experienced that collective religious experience that you described a few posts back, would you say that it is similar to the whole Pearl Jam live experience? Because each and every time I've seen Pearl Jam the collective love and energy in the room has been so uplifting I've imagined that it is like a spiritual experience not unsimilar to what people experience at revival type churches.
Going to a live show can most definitely be such an experience for me. And I think it pushes the same buttons inside us that mass religious experiences does. It's about a room filled with people focusing on the same thing, creating a kind of energy between crowd and performer. I almost reached that peak at the Nine Inch Nails consert 2 weeks ago, particularly during "The Eraser" (with the song ending on repeated chants of "Kill me" together with the crowd) and "Hurt".
Music can very much be a source of, and enhancer of such experiences. But the point, I think, is the crowd's involvedness. And it's what keeps us coming back to revivals, concerts and football matches. That's my theory anyway. But this is only a part of the whole subject here as I see it. There is more than the mere mass of people going on, on a much more private and personal level. I still don't know or have a theory on what that is.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
'Mental Illness' is only a category created by modern Medicalisation to make everyone think the way professional institutions would like us to think. It makes it easier to objectify and normalise behaviour, and then stigmatise whoever doesn't adhere to it. The same thing is true of the term 'disability'.
So harmless, correct me if I'm wrong but, you are saying these examples are stereotypes?
Going to a live show can most definitely be such an experience for me. And I think it pushes the same buttons inside us that mass religious experiences does. It's about a room filled with people focusing on the same thing, creating a kind of energy between crowd and performer. I almost reached that peak at the Nine Inch Nails consert 2 weeks ago, particularly during "The Eraser" (with the song ending on repeated chants of "Kill me" together with the crowd) and "Hurt".
Music can very much be a source of, and enhancer of such experiences. But the point, I think, is the crowd's involvedness. And it's what keeps us coming back to revivals, concerts and football matches. That's my theory anyway. But this is only a part of the whole subject here as I see it. There is more than the mere mass of people going on, on a much more private and personal level. I still don't know or have a theory on what that is.
Peace
Dan
Yes, I understand what you are saying. And I think understand what you mean about the difference between the collective experience and the individual one. I can also see more clearly how the collective experience might work, as opposed to the individual one. And how much harder to understand and articulate the individual because there is not the collective experience to offer "proof" as it were. I think meditative practice is very interesting as an example, because although there are agreed common techniques the experience itself is very individual.
I am a Christian. It's not easy to say that in today's world, because there are people left right and centre who cheapen and muddy the whole concept: they play power games like 'my church is bigger than yours' and equate church with organisation/business, with ego-stroking competitions about marketing campaigns and money-raising for TV. I also think people are too quick to equate spiritual experience with ecstatic feelings and paranormal phenomena: ghosts, heightened states of emotion, ecstatic religious experience, etc. (not that these things aren't spiritual, of course).
I'm a Christian because I experience God involved in my life daily in a very normal, mundane way; I'm a Christian because all my life I have experienced that prayer actually works (not as a cure-all, mind you; I'll get onto that), and I'm a Christian because Jesus is the one God who decided that it was right that he should get immersed in the shit of humanity by becoming human and experiencing everything we've experienced, showing us during his life how to be better people, and then by dying the shameful death of a criminal, showing that no-one who's been through hell is alone.
As a disabled person, I have always hated talk of God healing all our diseases if we have enough faith. This presupposes that if we aren't healed, after all these years praying, it's our fault. Also, it makes us who believe that our disability is an integral part of who we are feel guilty for that; it's a way of 'normalising' human experience; if there are 'disabled' and 'non-disabled' categories, there is division in the church, and one group constantly feels somehow like outsiders of the perfect group dynamic. Jesus said that there is no perfect group dynamic; that's why he collected together a bunch of slow, clumsy, bumbling, flawed characters to be his first church, gave commoners the responsibility of running it, and made a congregation out of hookers, drunkards, thieves and philanderers, as long as they were wanting to really experience God. I also think that the New Testament, far from being a 'manual to prosperity', teaches us how to live with contentment and patience in life despite inevitable hardships and difficulties that life will throw at us.
This is my experience. I have had a few strange spiritual encounters. I have had two or three experiences with what I can only describe as angels; I can write about them, if anyone wants. Something tells me that this is more what the thread starter is going for, but oh well, that stuff should be enough to chew on for now.
Thanks for reading. I'm open to honest debate but please be respectful.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
So harmless, correct me if I'm wrong but, you are saying these examples are stereotypes?
Nod nod. Stereotypes pushed by medical services, among others.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
I was kinda hoping someone would come along with an christian angle, harmless.
I totally share your distaste for the pray-and-god-will-give-you-money kind of christians. Those are the ones bugging me the most. And I like your brand of christianity, although I will not subscribe to it myself.
As you outlined, I would be more interested in the actual encounters with angels and the like, yes. That was the point of this thread, to get experiences from people, religious or not, and all put under the same roof so to speak. So if you wanna share your stories about angles and describe situations you have felt god, then I am very interested to hear them.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I agree with Ahnimus, I don't call my experiences spiritual. It's simple things that usually do it, things that make me realise how utterly insignificant I am. Seeing a plane in the air, a severe thunderstorm, a flood... when I realise I have no control... Anything can create these feelings, but I have to be in the right mood. Drugs often help. Just watching how everything around me changes, clouds, birds that quiet down when it becomes darker, the gradual change from light to darkness, the wind... It makes me realise how small and insignificant I truly am, and I like that feeling. I'd say there's a lack of anything spiritual and the experience rises out of total emptiness... I can't really explain.
I LOVE that feeling for some reason. It kinda takes away inhibitions I think, like 'who cares if I look stupid today, it will make no difference to me or the world at large' or something like that. It gives me a nice warm, cosy feeling.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
..and for this thread, we focus on the personal experiences of the posters, not it's scientific validity. Sorry to come down on you Ahnimus, but I was hoping to avoid these dicussions in this thread. (this also goes for baraka)
I think it makes more sense to put more faith in your own personal experiences than to believe science telling you otherwise :cool: . Just my personal take on it . Thanks for this thread Dan
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
The times I have had experiences approximating what I think a religious experience must be like, it is usually just a great sense of connectedness between everything and myself, coupled with a sense of awe of the complexity of my surroundings. I also frequently get these flashes when listening to music, and some artists/songs in particular, coupled with intense emotions.
Wow, I can completely relate to that paragraph... I have quite a lot of experiences like that. I'm not religious but I KNOW there's a God... I just don't think it should be put into a certain category like we do with everything else. Religion IMO (whichever it is) is a moral code which we follow and have been brought up to follow IN MY OPINION, and I am not opening up debates on that so we can take the thread off track, but God is everything and everywhere!
With me it's normally in nature that I find those moments and I'm usually alone... sitting on a beach on a beautiful day... or even walking on a beach on a stormy night... just seeing the odd tree or flower in the middle of the concrete jungle brings a smile to my face. I've had experiences and I've spoken of them here before so I don't wanna bore everyone but I can completely relate to this thread
Music, yep Street Spirit does it... as does the solo in comfortably numb :eek:
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I LOVE that feeling for some reason. It kinda takes away inhibitions I think, like 'who cares if I look stupid today, it will make no difference to me or the world at large' or something like that. It gives me a nice warm, cosy feeling.
Comments
thanks baraka.
I've finished watching Dr Newberg and I've read the first article you posted here. I attempted to read the first one on meditation but I gotta stop now, coz I think I've got brain overload!!
I'll have another go at it tomorrow.
It's all very interesting though.
I'd particularly like to get my hands on a copy of Why God Won't Go Away.
Sounds very interesting.
I'm really looking forward to scientists doing more studies in this area and eventually coming to a more inclusive consensus.
I liked what Dr Newberg said about the intensity of the experience being more vivid than the usual experience. I've found I really identified with that.
As though time has slowed down and everything is etched more firmly in my brain.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=198207&highlight=surgery
The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
Wow! That's quite the experience Ms H.
Isn't it interesting how we try so hard to explain these things in our minds?
I can't really be sure, if I haven't filtered my experiences over the years, each time I've gone over them. I'm sure I probably have actually. But something happened. That's for sure. Same as something happened to you.
It's interesting how your grandfather came, and helped because you were scared of your father. That's a really cool story. Thanks for sharing.
PS: I got you a card. Finally!!! And I promise to write tomorrow. Sorry that I'm soo slow.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
A young girl lives alone. Walks through the city almost every night. She's a stranger to most. In the midnight weekends she shuts the world away and sings. Her song is like a mystery. Undescribable. Beautiful. Haunting. Hypnotic. She counts her blessings in them. She washes her sins away with them. Her songs are her salvation.
One night, as she walked alone through the city a man followed her to her home. She didn't notice. Completely oblivious to how her life would change in any moment. She walked into her home and her follower watched behind at a distance as she walked in. Her heart was sinking. For what her days had held for her simply weighed her to the point of breaking. But she didn't know that what would happen would be greater than those of her folly days.
The man approaches her apartment as soon as she closes the door behind her. She walkes into her bathroom. Disrobed. Crying. Shaken. Scared. But why, I could never know. The man watches through the window. Desperate. Vile. Untethered. He breaks in without a sound. Slowly walks behind her as she stands naked in front of her shower. Her thoughts consumed her deeply of regret and sorrow. As she is standing there, the man is behind breathing softly and patiently prepares to break every part of her innocence. Simultaneously, her feelings stream through her spine and down to her feet. The man slowly raises his hands towards her neck as she begins to sing. The song flowed through her throat in such a gifted way. She sang and sang with all of her being as she uttered these words:
Longer are the lonely nights that raise our head up high
Than those of the days that consume us of fear
It's alright, It's alright
Frozen and confused, the man stood astounded. He thought she had noticed him, but she did not turn. Her song just kept on playing. His feelings crept somewhere inside of him he didn't know existed. His vile desires had passed away, as he surrendered to a force that had saved this girl all her life.
as for my spritual experiences, they are very personal to me. i'm sure it's the same to those who believe they've had spiritual experiences. whenever i tell people about it they look at me like i'm nuts.
when my father was a pastor we'd have these experiences everytime in our church services. i mean the situations there were not like what you see on tv or how borat portrayed the pentecostal church service which i thought was hilarious. every wednesday nights we would gather at about 70 or 80 in a crowded little house and pray with the lights out. at first it was very unnerving and many questioned my dad why he would turn out the lights. many thought he was doing something that was innappropriate to the christian faith. but my father would simply say, "if you need to go home or have any other reason for not being here then you are free to do as you please." so gradually people were accepting and willing to stay. the first couple of months were very vague and boring. nothng but silence. i was about 14 and i myself would question why my dad would do such things. but then later someone would begin crying... except we didn't know who it was because the lights were out. so we'd just assume that the person was going through some tough times so he/she needed to pour their heart out to God or something. but later that wasn't entirely true cause gradually one after the other there would be what i can barely describe as a sweet weeping. it was a cry, but a beautiful cry. i don't know why or how but it was beautiful. even the children in the rooms that were being cared for would begin to weep with such profound sweet sorrow... it wasn't speaking in tognues... it was like what most would describe an epiphany, an ecstasy of some kind that everyone was experiencing. but literally everyone that was there... not a single soul would sit idle. even one person who was struggling with drug addictions and was involved with a gang lifestyle who didn't want anything to do with church, one day while we were all there weeping for reasons unknown to us approached my dad and kneeled next to him and started crying. and i remember clearly, everyone heard him say, "i don't know why. i never liked church but what i am feeling today is the greatest feeling i've ever had." this wasn't programmed by anyone or anything. it just flowed spontaneously. something that i wish i still were experiencing. i'm sure if anyone felt it... they would describe it as a knot on their chest, like a heavy feeling that almost rivals the feeling you get when you are madly in love or infatuated by someone.
well it was my logical side coming out to hassle me that had me in denial. these days i manage to ignore my logical side with more success.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
My problem with that is that it doesn't explain anything by any reasoning. For example if we say that consciousness transcends space and time after death, we are only speculating and there is no way of proving that. The only thing I see in that argument is ending debate. Like we could just say everything is determined by God and never investigate. When I look at the experiments that have been done on consciousness I don't see any evidence of transcendence. Even in Zen Meditation it shows a coherence of brain activity and specific wave patterns, but it doesn't show us any evidence of metaphysical phenomena. Stuart Hameroff argues for quantum indeterminacy in the microtubules and this quantum consciousness transcends the body after death. That sounds reasonable, but reasonable isn't enough. It's reasonable that people's experience of events is obscure. We need observable things, some way of guessing that isn't total speculation. What I've seen in research is that you can easily lose consciousness all together. That is observable every night we go to sleep. If consciousness in an alive state is entirely dependent on the brain, how can it transcend after death? See I think there is more evidence against a theory of transcendence than there is for it. Personal experience is great, especially if the individual is trained. Apparently Buddhist Monks achieve greater concentration and awareness of observation, I'd be for making them into scientists. But as a scientist, you do know that modern science has operational control mechanisms that prevent observer bias. I believe this is the reason that theories of transcendence haven't become popular.
The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
..and for this thread, we focus on the personal experiences of the posters, not it's scientific validity. Sorry to come down on you Ahnimus, but I was hoping to avoid these dicussions in this thread. (this also goes for baraka)
The discussion you are beginning here is better located in the "holographic universe" or "scientist believing in god" threads. I want this thread to be as neutral as possible, and have people share their experiences. I can engage you in another thread about what you are laying out here. It is interesting, but it is also diverting this thread from it's purpose.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Well, this isn't a thread about 'proving' your experience was 'real'. Dan was clear about that when he started the thread. He (and rightly so) wanted folks to feel comfortable sharing their experience without others trying to 'undermine' them.
But just because some come to believe nothing is real except what can be externalized/objectified for observation by the masses doesn't mean everything that is real can be externalized/objectified. On the other hand, just because something can't be externalized/objectified, it doesn't mean we can't still apply the rule of developing our sense of certainty through repeated experience.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
AH, you beat me to the punch and your scolding was duly noted.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
This is again exactly the stuff I'm after. I have many times witnessed religious ecstacy in people around me at revivals and whatnot, but I have never been part of or experienced it that way. Powerful stuff about the lights out.
For those of you who don't dare to post because you are worried about derision, I urge you to reconsider. This thread still hasn't succumbed to it, and it's been a full day.
Keep going guys, you are wonderful so far.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
You can also develop a mental illness.
But yea, I was responding to your science.
Consider this a bump, and a request for others to come share their experience(s).
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I agree Dan, it's an awesome thread.
But I suspect that as the trolls have already been sniffing around that folks are prudently keeping their experiences to themselves.
I mean I have other experiences but I really don't need anymore shit from that direction at this point, and really I don't want this to be remembered as the "Jeanie is losing her marbles" thread.
When you have experienced that collective religious experience that you described a few posts back, would you say that it is similar to the whole Pearl Jam live experience? Because each and every time I've seen Pearl Jam the collective love and energy in the room has been so uplifting I've imagined that it is like a spiritual experience not unsimilar to what people experience at revival type churches.
edit: oops missed a vital word.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
'Mental Illness' is only a category created by modern Medicalisation to make everyone think the way professional institutions would like us to think. It makes it easier to objectify and normalise behaviour, and then stigmatise whoever doesn't adhere to it. The same thing is true of the term 'disability'.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
Music can very much be a source of, and enhancer of such experiences. But the point, I think, is the crowd's involvedness. And it's what keeps us coming back to revivals, concerts and football matches. That's my theory anyway. But this is only a part of the whole subject here as I see it. There is more than the mere mass of people going on, on a much more private and personal level. I still don't know or have a theory on what that is.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
So harmless, correct me if I'm wrong but, you are saying these examples are stereotypes?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Yes, I understand what you are saying. And I think understand what you mean about the difference between the collective experience and the individual one. I can also see more clearly how the collective experience might work, as opposed to the individual one. And how much harder to understand and articulate the individual because there is not the collective experience to offer "proof" as it were. I think meditative practice is very interesting as an example, because although there are agreed common techniques the experience itself is very individual.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I'm a Christian because I experience God involved in my life daily in a very normal, mundane way; I'm a Christian because all my life I have experienced that prayer actually works (not as a cure-all, mind you; I'll get onto that), and I'm a Christian because Jesus is the one God who decided that it was right that he should get immersed in the shit of humanity by becoming human and experiencing everything we've experienced, showing us during his life how to be better people, and then by dying the shameful death of a criminal, showing that no-one who's been through hell is alone.
As a disabled person, I have always hated talk of God healing all our diseases if we have enough faith. This presupposes that if we aren't healed, after all these years praying, it's our fault. Also, it makes us who believe that our disability is an integral part of who we are feel guilty for that; it's a way of 'normalising' human experience; if there are 'disabled' and 'non-disabled' categories, there is division in the church, and one group constantly feels somehow like outsiders of the perfect group dynamic. Jesus said that there is no perfect group dynamic; that's why he collected together a bunch of slow, clumsy, bumbling, flawed characters to be his first church, gave commoners the responsibility of running it, and made a congregation out of hookers, drunkards, thieves and philanderers, as long as they were wanting to really experience God. I also think that the New Testament, far from being a 'manual to prosperity', teaches us how to live with contentment and patience in life despite inevitable hardships and difficulties that life will throw at us.
This is my experience. I have had a few strange spiritual encounters. I have had two or three experiences with what I can only describe as angels; I can write about them, if anyone wants. Something tells me that this is more what the thread starter is going for, but oh well, that stuff should be enough to chew on for now.
Thanks for reading. I'm open to honest debate but please be respectful.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
Nod nod. Stereotypes pushed by medical services, among others.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
I totally share your distaste for the pray-and-god-will-give-you-money kind of christians. Those are the ones bugging me the most. And I like your brand of christianity, although I will not subscribe to it myself.
As you outlined, I would be more interested in the actual encounters with angels and the like, yes. That was the point of this thread, to get experiences from people, religious or not, and all put under the same roof so to speak. So if you wanna share your stories about angles and describe situations you have felt god, then I am very interested to hear them.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Yes, I know these things of which you speak.
Some doctors and the like do pigeon hole, it seems they think it keeps things running smoothly.
And I would be very interested to hear of your angel experiences please.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
With me it's normally in nature that I find those moments and I'm usually alone... sitting on a beach on a beautiful day... or even walking on a beach on a stormy night... just seeing the odd tree or flower in the middle of the concrete jungle brings a smile to my face. I've had experiences and I've spoken of them here before so I don't wanna bore everyone but I can completely relate to this thread
Music, yep Street Spirit does it... as does the solo in comfortably numb :eek:
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Yes, exactly.
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