Divorced. Dating...
Letting things flow... I have no problems with fucking... in fact, I think it's a good thing... when done correctly.
...
Oh, Hell.... I'm a slut.
I'll chalk you up as "single" then
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Divorced. Dating...
Letting things flow... I have no problems with fucking... in fact, I think it's a good thing... when done correctly.
...
Oh, Hell.... I'm a slut.
well..how you doin? (in best Joey from Friends impression) lmao sorry couldn't resist!
Well, I've been been married for 4 years, very happy (I don't get the hard work part either) and before getting married we lived together for a year. In total, we've been togheter almost 10 years now
About moving to another country for love (how cheese does it sound ), I have to say I did it. Well, I also won a scholarship, but my husband living here in Bs.As had a key role in me choosing the university I chose to get my masters degree...
New count:
19 have now responded. The numbers are as follows:
8 are married, 5 of which had co-habitated beforehand
4 are currently co-habitating
3 are engaged/in a relationship. 1 is cohabiting, 2 didn't say
4 are single, whereof 2 of them are divorced.
Which brings the total of co-habiting at one point up to 10/19. I must also comment what looks like a pattern. People get together, after a while move together, and after a while, get married. That's a natural progression I think. And those merely co-habiting may also go through the same, but not seeing any point in marrying.
Hey Caterina! I thought I'd do this poll to get some feelers out on a subject which is discussed from time to time on here. As I expected, alot of people have co-habitation experience which in some cases end up as marriages. This is partly in response to the child-out-of-wedlock thread to illustrate the matter. I know this won't be representative in any meaningful statistical way, but I thought it'd be fun to know.
Btw I must say that I am an anomaly and irregularity compared to you lot. Whereas many go the route I describes above, I have been together with my girlfriend 3 years, and we have co-habited for 3,5 years. She moved into my collective, and we spent 6 months finding out we liked eachother.
But I digress.
Keep on posting guys!
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
New count:
19 have now responded. The numbers are as follows:
8 are married, 5 of which had co-habitated beforehand
4 are currently co-habitating
3 are engaged/in a relationship. 1 is cohabiting, 2 didn't say
4 are single, whereof 2 of them are divorced.
Which brings the total of co-habiting at one point up to 10/19. I must also comment what looks like a pattern. People get together, after a while move together, and after a while, get married. That's a natural progression I think. And those merely co-habiting may also go through the same, but not seeing any point in marrying.
Hey Caterina! I thought I'd do this poll to get some feelers out on a subject which is discussed from time to time on here. As I expected, alot of people have co-habitation experience which in some cases end up as marriages. This is partly in response to the child-out-of-wedlock thread to illustrate the matter. I know this won't be representative in any meaningful statistical way, but I thought it'd be fun to know.
Btw I must say that I am an anomaly and irregularity compared to you lot. Whereas many go the route I describes above, I have been together with my girlfriend 3 years, and we have co-habited for 3,5 years. She moved into my collective, and we spent 6 months finding out we liked eachother.
But I digress.
Keep on posting guys!
Peace
Dan
We're not expecting this poll to have a high R2 or anything like that , yet it is fun indeed to see how some sort of trend (well at least for geeks like me who love statistics). Yet, if you were to conduct such a poll here in South America, with the exception of Buenos Aires, Montevideo and (to a lesser degree) Santiago de Chile, you'll see that most people get married without co-habiting, and even more, many people (specially women) move out of their parents house after getting married.
single, almost moved to Calgary to get married a few years ago.
You can tell a man from what he has to say - Neil & Tim Finn
They love you so badly for sharing their sorrow, so pick up that guitar and go break a heart - Kris Kristofferson
Single. Never been married or been in a relationship. I've always been very independent and the idea of living with someone isn't appealing to me. Now I'm not against relationships, it's just not me. But that doesn't mean I won't change in the future.
married 14 years, 5 months and 2 days.
childfree.
dated off and on for 5 years before marriage.
never lived together until we married...but sure......lots of sleepovers.
i've never lived with anyone besides my family, roommates abroad and my husband..and sure, our menagerie of pets.
married 14 years, 5 months and 2 days.
childless.
dated off and on for 5 years before marriage.
never lived together until we married...but sure......lots of sleepovers.
i've never lived with anyone besides my family, roommates abroad and my husband..and sure, our menagerie of pets.
childfree
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Known eachother almost 4 years, been together 3 years, 7 months and 18 days
Will marry in about 2-4 years, when we have the money to stage it all; it has to be in my home country (I live abroad) as it's one of the few countries that properly recognizes same-sex marriage
EDIT: The main reason for getting married is that when we want to have kids (only one of us will be the biological mother of course) or if one of us dies, we hope the other person's rights will be respected. At the mo, I think we'd be royally scr*wed if one of us died. Here's to hoping we'll stay healthy!
Like a cloud dropping rain
I'm discarding all thought
I'll dry up, leaving puddles on the ground
I'm like an opening band for the sun
28 have responded (which is a bit more than I expected or hoped really)
New numbers are:
11 Married, 6 who confirmed co-habiting beforehand
5 currently co-habiting
4 engaged/in a relationship, 1 co-habiting
8 single, of which 4 are divorced.
So after 28 people, the amount to havea confirmed co-habitation experience is 12. A bit low actually in my eyes, but then again americans are a bit more traditional in those respects than norwegians.
This was meant to put some perspective on the whole married/kid out of wedlock debate. Marriage is an institution that has changed content and intention several times throughout history, and is now changing again. Marriage is no longer mandatory to be able to live together, hence all those people who didn't and doesn't really care, don't bother either. And that says nothing of their level of commitment, morals, or ability to raise a child adequately. Many now see marriage just as a big party, and a way to show their love to the world. But that doesn't have to happen until after they've lived together for years. As my girlfriend puts it, who scoffs of the notion of getting married, is that "Getting married is something you can do when you're in your thirties and nothing else is going on in your life".
The hegemony and monopoly of marriage as the only way for two grown people to live together is shattered, and will hopefully never return either. I'm not dissing marriage, as I see nothing wrong with it, and it can be a blessing and so forth. But it should not be the model forced over evryone's heads as the only viable one. Those who want to, who have a reason religious or otherwise, go ahead. I think it's great for two people to commit like that. But the marriage doesn't transform them, it doesn't create the commitment and is not the glue between the two. The marriage is an expression and result, not a cause.
What this quick poll shows, is that there are many ways to go about this, and people have all kind of different experiences, and different ways to go about it. And that's great. If there's one thing you should figure out for yourself in life, it's how to live (or not) with another human that you perhaps love and how you are to organize it all to fit your situation and inclination.
Thanks for the responses folks. It's been helpful and interesting.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
28 have responded (which is a bit more than I expected or hoped really)
New numbers are:
11 Married, 6 who confirmed co-habiting beforehand
5 currently co-habiting
4 engaged/in a relationship, 1 co-habiting
8 single, of which 4 are divorced.
So after 28 people, the amount to havea confirmed co-habitation experience is 12. A bit low actually in my eyes, but then again americans are a bit more traditional in those respects than norwegians.
This was meant to put some perspective on the whole married/kid out of wedlock debate. Marriage is an institution that has changed content and intention several times throughout history, and is now changing again. Marriage is no longer mandatory to be able to live together, hence all those people who didn't and doesn't really care, don't bother either. And that says nothing of their level of commitment, morals, or ability to raise a child adequately. Many now see marriage just as a big party, and a way to show their love to the world. But that doesn't have to happen until after they've lived together for years. As my girlfriend puts it, who scoffs of the notion of getting married, is that "Getting married is something you can do when you're in your thirties and nothing else is going on in your life".
The hegemony and monopoly of marriage as the only way for two grown people to live together is shattered, and will hopefully never return either. I'm not dissing marriage, as I see nothing wrong with it, and it can be a blessing and so forth. But it should not be the model forced over evryone's heads as the only viable one. Those who want to, who have a reason religious or otherwise, go ahead. I think it's great for two people to commit like that. But the marriage doesn't transform them, it doesn't create the commitment and is not the glue between the two. The marriage is an expression and result, not a cause.
What this quick poll shows, is that there are many ways to go about this, and people have all kind of different experiences, and different ways to go about it. And that's great. If there's one thing you should figure out for yourself in life, it's how to live (or not) with another human that you perhaps love and how you are to organize it all to fit your situation and inclination.
Thanks for the responses folks. It's been helpful and interesting.
Peace
Dan
O.k. Here is the thing. i'm still a little unclear on what point you are trying to make. i think, and i may be wrong, that you are trying to demonstrate that out of wedlock births are not much of a concern do to the fact that many people cohabitate without getting married, therefore it is no big deal. First of all of the responses to your little quiz are from this board. Hardly a fair cross section of the population. Secondly you bend the data. Someone who says they cohabitated before marriage are automatically thrown into the cohabitating category as are those who say they are cohabitating now with definite plans of marriage in the future. i know you never claimed this was at all scientific. Its good that you know that.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
28 have responded (which is a bit more than I expected or hoped really)
New numbers are:
11 Married, 6 who confirmed co-habiting beforehand
5 currently co-habiting
4 engaged/in a relationship, 1 co-habiting
8 single, of which 4 are divorced.
So after 28 people, the amount to havea confirmed co-habitation experience is 12. A bit low actually in my eyes, but then again americans are a bit more traditional in those respects than norwegians.
This was meant to put some perspective on the whole married/kid out of wedlock debate. Marriage is an institution that has changed content and intention several times throughout history, and is now changing again. Marriage is no longer mandatory to be able to live together, hence all those people who didn't and doesn't really care, don't bother either. And that says nothing of their level of commitment, morals, or ability to raise a child adequately. Many now see marriage just as a big party, and a way to show their love to the world. But that doesn't have to happen until after they've lived together for years. As my girlfriend puts it, who scoffs of the notion of getting married, is that "Getting married is something you can do when you're in your thirties and nothing else is going on in your life".
The hegemony and monopoly of marriage as the only way for two grown people to live together is shattered, and will hopefully never return either. I'm not dissing marriage, as I see nothing wrong with it, and it can be a blessing and so forth. But it should not be the model forced over evryone's heads as the only viable one. Those who want to, who have a reason religious or otherwise, go ahead. I think it's great for two people to commit like that. But the marriage doesn't transform them, it doesn't create the commitment and is not the glue between the two. The marriage is an expression and result, not a cause.
What this quick poll shows, is that there are many ways to go about this, and people have all kind of different experiences, and different ways to go about it. And that's great. If there's one thing you should figure out for yourself in life, it's how to live (or not) with another human that you perhaps love and how you are to organize it all to fit your situation and inclination.
Thanks for the responses folks. It's been helpful and interesting.
Peace
Dan
as a long-married woman who has never cohabitated...i fully agree...i think it's GREAT that it is so much more acceptible for all to choose the lifestyle that best suits their desires and needs, whatever they may be.
as far as the rationale of why one choose one choice over another, what it exactly *means* to them or not...i wouldn't even hazard a guess nor try to label the meaning or whys of it, it is so individual. sure, some may arbitrarily decide they know *why*...but it doesn't make it true, one way or another. i am just happy that so many choices are far more socially acceptible, so that all may comfortably choose their own path.
The hegemony and monopoly of marriage as the only way for two grown people to live together is shattered, and will hopefully never return either. I'm not dissing marriage, as I see nothing wrong with it, and it can be a blessing and so forth. But it should not be the model forced over evryone's heads as the only viable one. Those who want to, who have a reason religious or otherwise, go ahead. I think it's great for two people to commit like that. But the marriage doesn't transform them, it doesn't create the commitment and is not the glue between the two. The marriage is an expression and result, not a cause.
What this quick poll shows, is that there are many ways to go about this, and people have all kind of different experiences, and different ways to go about it. And that's great. If there's one thing you should figure out for yourself in life, it's how to live (or not) with another human that you perhaps love and how you are to organize it all to fit your situation and inclination.
The poll is wholely unscientific. It proves nothing about marriage. You polled a bunch of Pearl Jam fans.
Difference does not have a "good" connotation. Just because other methods of familial organization have been presented, this does not mean that those different methods are ideal, according to history and tradition.
The traditional family is as much a staple of western civilization as the printing press. A mother and a father are exceedingly important to the well-being of children. I am a product of a divorced family, and I can tell with assuredness, my experience while my family was together was better than when it was separate.
The important thing to note here is that the presence of different types of families in America does not necessarily mean that those different types are the most ideal for the well-being of children and society. To discern that central question, one must enter into a much greater deal of research than a 28 person poll.
Edit: In addition, in my opinion it is not necessarily true that what serves one person's personal interests the best serves society's interest. If I am gay and decide to raise a child and that is an expression of my personal choice and liberty, the diversity of my choice does not necessarily mean that society receives the most benefit from my decision. Diversity is not something to be aimed for but to be a result of individual liberty.
Different animals raise children in different ways. Lions raise cubs in prides. An alpha male with many subordinate females and he makes them pregnant when he feels like it.
Humans have established cultural and social practices relating to the raising of children. One man and one woman generally conceive and raise a child together as equal influences. I fail to see proof that other familial methods have improved upon this time-proven method, but I would be interested in seeing that proof.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Funny, me and my two friends were discussing the merits of marriage. I have a girlfriend of a year and often stay with her, not truly co-habitate. My position was that I just don't see the point of formal marriage. They brought up the stability, it's the natural course, etc. Then I reminded them about how they bitch when they have to do something sometimes, or their wives would be pissed. And how I live relatively free and laugh at some of the shit they are obligated to do. My buddy said, 'but all in all, it is much better than being single.' I then asked, 'Well, when was the last time you heard somebody say, 'man, being married is the shit, you have to do it.' They then forfeited the argument.
forever, you might have a point, but here's my view:
If I wasn't capable of making a lifelong commitment to a woman, it would feel as thought I was using her for my own physical and emotional needs. It would be selfish, to me. Now, marriage is the social prescription for beginning that commitment.
To me, being humble and submissive to your partner is a good thing, even when you don't like it. Unfortunately, we cannot do whatever we wish all the time and I am not a hedonist.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
forever, you might have a point, but here's my view:
If I wasn't capable of making a lifelong commitment to a woman, it would feel as thought I was using her for my own physical and emotional needs. It would be selfish, to me. Now, marriage is the social prescription for beginning that commitment.
To me, being humble and submissive to your partner is a good thing, even when you don't like it. Unfortunately, we cannot do whatever we wish all the time and I am not a hedonist.
Agree to a degree. The person you are with must see things the same way, and if they don't, well it won't last long anyway. Being humble and treating your partner with respect does not come from a cetificate from city hall.
Agree to a degree. The person you are with must see things the same way, and if they don't, well it won't last long anyway. Being humble and treating your partner with respect does not come from a cetificate from city hall.
Amen. I'd say that certificate is a starting point and the 30th anniversary is where yer actually married.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
The poll is wholely unscientific. It proves nothing about marriage. You polled a bunch of Pearl Jam fans.
Difference does not have a "good" connotation. Just because other methods of familial organization have been presented, this does not mean that those different methods are ideal, according to history and tradition.
The traditional family is as much a staple of western civilization as the printing press. A mother and a father are exceedingly important to the well-being of children. I am a product of a divorced family, and I can tell with assuredness, my experience while my family was together was better than when it was separate.
The important thing to note here is that the presence of different types of families in America does not necessarily mean that those different types are the most ideal for the well-being of children and society. To discern that central question, one must enter into a much greater deal of research than a 28 person poll.
Edit: In addition, in my opinion it is not necessarily true that what serves one person's personal interests the best serves society's interest. If I am gay and decide to raise a child and that is an expression of my personal choice and liberty, the diversity of my choice does not necessarily mean that society receives the most benefit from my decision. Diversity is not something to be aimed for but to be a result of individual liberty.
Different animals raise children in different ways. Lions raise cubs in prides. An alpha male with many subordinate females and he makes them pregnant when he feels like it.
Humans have established cultural and social practices relating to the raising of children. One man and one woman generally conceive and raise a child together as equal influences. I fail to see proof that other familial methods have improved upon this time-proven method, but I would be interested in seeing that proof.
OK, the poll is of course highly unscientific. I haven't said otherwise. The poll was meant as an illustration among a random collection of Pearl Jam fans, and just get a feel for how and what they do in this respect. What I got was many points of view and some information on how they live their lives.
The "traditional" family, would you care to elaborate what that really is? The nuclear family ideal of mom, dad, kids, is hardly a few centuries old. Marriage has been alliance-builiding, a way to build up a household capable of doing the necessary work to make the farm go round, for resources, and in the last hundred years, for romantic love.
My point about the many different ways is that firstly, there have always been many different ways, only that it's not until recently that they aren't looked down upon and stigmatized for it.
As for child-upbringing, humans have done so in many different ways. Humans are tribal and social in nature, and people around the planet have raised kids individually, and/or collectively in their tribe/group. There's nothing inherently human about raising kids exclusively being done by the two biological, or at least legal, parents.
As for your experience with divorce, I would guess that the conflict and change is what hurts. Wouldn't be any different if your parents weren't married. Which is fundamentally my point. Marriage is a piece of paper. Period. What some people seem to assume is that a good relationship between 2 people can only be in the confines of a marriage, and being in a marriage, somehow makes all better. The point is people's personal relations and how they go about them. And if there's one area people should be left to do as they want/wish it is on the level of personal relations.
Otherwise, I agree with decidestodream. I think it's wonderful that many different ways are normalized and acceptable. Leaves much more maneuvering room for the individual, at the same time we get a society much more diverse, and tolerant of different ways and people.
Child-rearing has nothing to do with marrige. Personal relationships and acting towards eachother has nothing to do with marriage. Being committed has nothing to do with marriage in itself. (although people of that inclination tend to marry after they commit) Therefore, I dont see a problem in the decline in marriage's status among people. What underlies the decline, may be a problem depending on your views.
Uh, I've got a real headache, so I won't be responding more today. Christmas party yesterday. So you all take your time formulating your disagreements, and I'll be back tomorrow.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Comments
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
well..how you doin? (in best Joey from Friends impression) lmao sorry couldn't resist!
you kidding,... they grew up in the 60's
~Ron Burgundy
Well, I've been been married for 4 years, very happy (I don't get the hard work part either) and before getting married we lived together for a year. In total, we've been togheter almost 10 years now
About moving to another country for love (how cheese does it sound
Good one!! Watched some friends dvds last weekend. Laughed my ass off. Could friends beee any funnier?(in my best chandler bing impression)
I couldn't resist either!!
Don't think i will ever get married.
19 have now responded. The numbers are as follows:
8 are married, 5 of which had co-habitated beforehand
4 are currently co-habitating
3 are engaged/in a relationship. 1 is cohabiting, 2 didn't say
4 are single, whereof 2 of them are divorced.
Which brings the total of co-habiting at one point up to 10/19. I must also comment what looks like a pattern. People get together, after a while move together, and after a while, get married. That's a natural progression I think. And those merely co-habiting may also go through the same, but not seeing any point in marrying.
Hey Caterina! I thought I'd do this poll to get some feelers out on a subject which is discussed from time to time on here. As I expected, alot of people have co-habitation experience which in some cases end up as marriages. This is partly in response to the child-out-of-wedlock thread to illustrate the matter. I know this won't be representative in any meaningful statistical way, but I thought it'd be fun to know.
Btw I must say that I am an anomaly and irregularity compared to you lot. Whereas many go the route I describes above, I have been together with my girlfriend 3 years, and we have co-habited for 3,5 years.
But I digress.
Keep on posting guys!
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
We're not expecting this poll to have a high R2 or anything like that
I have a question ¿what is a collective?
They love you so badly for sharing their sorrow, so pick up that guitar and go break a heart - Kris Kristofferson
2nd round: lived together 2 yrs, married for 11 and counting.
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
So what are we becoming?
Where did we go wrong?
childfree.
dated off and on for 5 years before marriage.
never lived together until we married...but sure......lots of sleepovers.
i've never lived with anyone besides my family, roommates abroad and my husband..and sure, our menagerie of pets.
*edit - good point made by VG.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
childfree
cross the river to the eastside
Have lived together for 2 years and 4 months now.
Known eachother almost 4 years, been together 3 years, 7 months and 18 days
Will marry in about 2-4 years, when we have the money to stage it all; it has to be in my home country (I live abroad) as it's one of the few countries that properly recognizes same-sex marriage
EDIT: The main reason for getting married is that when we want to have kids (only one of us will be the biological mother of course) or if one of us dies, we hope the other person's rights will be respected. At the mo, I think we'd be royally scr*wed if one of us died. Here's to hoping we'll stay healthy!
I'm discarding all thought
I'll dry up, leaving puddles on the ground
I'm like an opening band for the sun
28 have responded (which is a bit more than I expected or hoped really)
New numbers are:
11 Married, 6 who confirmed co-habiting beforehand
5 currently co-habiting
4 engaged/in a relationship, 1 co-habiting
8 single, of which 4 are divorced.
So after 28 people, the amount to havea confirmed co-habitation experience is 12. A bit low actually in my eyes, but then again americans are a bit more traditional in those respects than norwegians.
This was meant to put some perspective on the whole married/kid out of wedlock debate. Marriage is an institution that has changed content and intention several times throughout history, and is now changing again. Marriage is no longer mandatory to be able to live together, hence all those people who didn't and doesn't really care, don't bother either. And that says nothing of their level of commitment, morals, or ability to raise a child adequately. Many now see marriage just as a big party, and a way to show their love to the world. But that doesn't have to happen until after they've lived together for years. As my girlfriend puts it, who scoffs of the notion of getting married, is that "Getting married is something you can do when you're in your thirties and nothing else is going on in your life".
The hegemony and monopoly of marriage as the only way for two grown people to live together is shattered, and will hopefully never return either. I'm not dissing marriage, as I see nothing wrong with it, and it can be a blessing and so forth. But it should not be the model forced over evryone's heads as the only viable one. Those who want to, who have a reason religious or otherwise, go ahead. I think it's great for two people to commit like that. But the marriage doesn't transform them, it doesn't create the commitment and is not the glue between the two. The marriage is an expression and result, not a cause.
What this quick poll shows, is that there are many ways to go about this, and people have all kind of different experiences, and different ways to go about it. And that's great. If there's one thing you should figure out for yourself in life, it's how to live (or not) with another human that you perhaps love and how you are to organize it all to fit your situation and inclination.
Thanks for the responses folks. It's been helpful and interesting.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
as a long-married woman who has never cohabitated...i fully agree...i think it's GREAT that it is so much more acceptible for all to choose the lifestyle that best suits their desires and needs, whatever they may be.
as far as the rationale of why one choose one choice over another, what it exactly *means* to them or not...i wouldn't even hazard a guess nor try to label the meaning or whys of it, it is so individual. sure, some may arbitrarily decide they know *why*...but it doesn't make it true, one way or another. i am just happy that so many choices are far more socially acceptible, so that all may comfortably choose their own path.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
The poll is wholely unscientific. It proves nothing about marriage. You polled a bunch of Pearl Jam fans.
Difference does not have a "good" connotation. Just because other methods of familial organization have been presented, this does not mean that those different methods are ideal, according to history and tradition.
The traditional family is as much a staple of western civilization as the printing press. A mother and a father are exceedingly important to the well-being of children. I am a product of a divorced family, and I can tell with assuredness, my experience while my family was together was better than when it was separate.
The important thing to note here is that the presence of different types of families in America does not necessarily mean that those different types are the most ideal for the well-being of children and society. To discern that central question, one must enter into a much greater deal of research than a 28 person poll.
Edit: In addition, in my opinion it is not necessarily true that what serves one person's personal interests the best serves society's interest. If I am gay and decide to raise a child and that is an expression of my personal choice and liberty, the diversity of my choice does not necessarily mean that society receives the most benefit from my decision. Diversity is not something to be aimed for but to be a result of individual liberty.
Different animals raise children in different ways. Lions raise cubs in prides. An alpha male with many subordinate females and he makes them pregnant when he feels like it.
Humans have established cultural and social practices relating to the raising of children. One man and one woman generally conceive and raise a child together as equal influences. I fail to see proof that other familial methods have improved upon this time-proven method, but I would be interested in seeing that proof.
-Enoch Powell
If I wasn't capable of making a lifelong commitment to a woman, it would feel as thought I was using her for my own physical and emotional needs. It would be selfish, to me. Now, marriage is the social prescription for beginning that commitment.
To me, being humble and submissive to your partner is a good thing, even when you don't like it. Unfortunately, we cannot do whatever we wish all the time and I am not a hedonist.
-Enoch Powell
Agree to a degree. The person you are with must see things the same way, and if they don't, well it won't last long anyway. Being humble and treating your partner with respect does not come from a cetificate from city hall.
Amen. I'd say that certificate is a starting point and the 30th anniversary is where yer actually married.
-Enoch Powell
The "traditional" family, would you care to elaborate what that really is? The nuclear family ideal of mom, dad, kids, is hardly a few centuries old. Marriage has been alliance-builiding, a way to build up a household capable of doing the necessary work to make the farm go round, for resources, and in the last hundred years, for romantic love.
My point about the many different ways is that firstly, there have always been many different ways, only that it's not until recently that they aren't looked down upon and stigmatized for it.
As for child-upbringing, humans have done so in many different ways. Humans are tribal and social in nature, and people around the planet have raised kids individually, and/or collectively in their tribe/group. There's nothing inherently human about raising kids exclusively being done by the two biological, or at least legal, parents.
As for your experience with divorce, I would guess that the conflict and change is what hurts. Wouldn't be any different if your parents weren't married. Which is fundamentally my point. Marriage is a piece of paper. Period. What some people seem to assume is that a good relationship between 2 people can only be in the confines of a marriage, and being in a marriage, somehow makes all better. The point is people's personal relations and how they go about them. And if there's one area people should be left to do as they want/wish it is on the level of personal relations.
Otherwise, I agree with decidestodream. I think it's wonderful that many different ways are normalized and acceptable. Leaves much more maneuvering room for the individual, at the same time we get a society much more diverse, and tolerant of different ways and people.
Child-rearing has nothing to do with marrige. Personal relationships and acting towards eachother has nothing to do with marriage. Being committed has nothing to do with marriage in itself. (although people of that inclination tend to marry after they commit) Therefore, I dont see a problem in the decline in marriage's status among people. What underlies the decline, may be a problem depending on your views.
Uh, I've got a real headache, so I won't be responding more today. Christmas party yesterday. So you all take your time formulating your disagreements, and I'll be back tomorrow.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965