Have Corporations beaten the Unions?

THCTHC Posts: 525
edited December 2006 in A Moving Train
I saw something online a few days ago which said...a while back...General Motors was the biggest employer in the United States. The average salary of the person working for them was $45,000/yr. plus full benefits.

Now, the biggest employer in the U.S. is Walmart. The average salary of the person working there is $19,000/yr. and partial if any benefits.


The question posed then is...."Have Unions in this country been defeated by the Major Corporations?"

what do people think?
“Kept in a small bowl, the goldfish will remain small. With more space, the fish can grow double, triple, or quadruple its size.”
-Big Fish
Post edited by Unknown User on
«1

Comments

  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    Unions defeated themselves by not adapting to a world economy. Unions defeated the very people they were supposed to represent by not insisting all union members use part of there good to great wages every year to update their schooling. Unions defeated themselves by settling for mediorcity based on seniority rather than striving to be the best based on ability.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • enharmonicenharmonic Posts: 1,917
    Global competition has beaten the American unions. When it became clear to American corporations that the government would not help them abolish the unions, the corporations struck out into developing nations to get the cheap labor.

    This is an effect that I like to refer to as the double-edged sword of capitalism. The corporations are in business to make money, not to ensure that Americans have good jobs. That is the responsibility of the individual in this society.
  • tybirdtybird Posts: 17,388
    surferdude wrote:
    Unions defeated themselves by not adapting to a world economy. Unions defeated the very people they were supposed to represent by not insisting all union members use part of there good to great wages every year to update their schooling. Unions defeated themselves by settling for mediorcity based on seniority rather than striving to be the best based on ability.
    Well said......there is also the fact that the leadership of some unions was quite corrupt and acted in the same manner that the heads of many corporations acted. They were in it for the money and self-improvement.
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • THCTHC Posts: 525
    I agree w/ what many have said about how the Unions in the U.S. have lost out...and I'm not necessarily in support of Unions...however...this trend is very alarming to me.

    the fact that Walmart is the biggest employer in the U.S., and NONE of us would ever want to work at a Wall-Mart due to their poor pay and benefits is a sad state of affairs.

    Unions may not be the answer...but the rich keep getting richer...and the poor...keep getting more and more in debt.

    Honestly...this trend makes me think of past U.S. history when Unions began in the first place...in order to stop the exploitation of workers. It seems there are no anti-trust laws being enforced anymore...and the Unions are def. on the decline.
    “Kept in a small bowl, the goldfish will remain small. With more space, the fish can grow double, triple, or quadruple its size.”
    -Big Fish
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    THC wrote:
    Unions may not be the answer...but the rich keep getting richer...and the poor...keep getting more and more in debt.

    Honestly...this trend makes me think of past U.S. history when Unions began in the first place...in order to stop the exploitation of workers. It seems there are no anti-trust laws being enforced anymore...and the Unions are def. on the decline.
    Unions don't fit into the world economy, expecially a union in the US or Canada.

    Places like Wal-Mart thrive off of our greed and drive to acquire at the lowest cost possible. We have adopted the same mentality as consumers thta we say we despise in corporations. There's a huge mind set change that needs to take place. We have to recognize that all people are equal and the same. That closing our eyes to the conditions in which things are made is unconscienceable. That treating the protection of an American worker is paramount over the protection of a person working in another country is shortsighted. It may put the dvd player in your family room at $19.99 but it jeopardizes your job in the long run.

    The only value I can see unions having is in third world and developping countries. Ensuring worker saftey is paramount, then working to build workers' rights. But look at the countries we've decided to trade with, they don't necessarily believe in either safety for their workers or the concept of workers' rights. The uN can and should be playing a big role here but as usual is falling far short.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    THC wrote:
    I saw something online a few days ago which said...a while back...General Motors was the biggest employer in the United States. The average salary of the person working for them was $45,000/yr. plus full benefits.

    Now, the biggest employer in the U.S. is Walmart. The average salary of the person working there is $19,000/yr. and partial if any benefits.


    The question posed then is...."Have Unions in this country been defeated by the Major Corporations?"

    what do people think?

    This was a stupid Rolling Stone article written by a guy who should have been scholarly, but instead wrote something that would have been failed in a Pol Sci 101 class.

    This apples and oranges comparison was just one of about 30 things I saw in a quick reading of the article. Comparing the salaries and benefits of skilled labor (welders, assemblers, engineers, etc...) to that of unskilled retail labor (baggers, checkers, stockers, etc...) makes no sense, and was simply done for effect.

    To the point of unions, they've outlived their purpose (if they ever had one).
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • hell yes they have!

    a lot of employers blatantly discourage employees from joining unions. When my wife became a teacher in NC, the girl going over her benefits made it pretty clear that joining the teacher's union was a bad idea.

    and with corporations having increased control in washington, unions will be a thing of the past very soon.

    quite sad...
    those undecided, needn't have faith to be free
  • jeffbr wrote:
    This was a stupid Rolling Stone article written by a guy who should have been scholarly, but instead wrote something that would have been failed in a Pol Sci 101 class.

    This apples and oranges comparison was just one of about 30 things I saw in a quick reading of the article. Comparing the salaries and benefits of skilled labor (welders, assemblers, engineers, etc...) to that of unskilled retail labor (baggers, checkers, stockers, etc...) makes no sense, and was simply done for effect.

    To the point of unions, they've outlived their purpose (if they ever had one).

    hey buddy, thank the unions for 5 day work weeks, and benefits (and loads of other stuff as well). you think corps. would have given that stuff out for no reason?
    those undecided, needn't have faith to be free
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    bryanfury wrote:
    hey buddy, thank the unions for 5 day work weeks, and benefits (and loads of other stuff as well). you think corps. would have given that stuff out for no reason?
    Do you think the workplace would not have evolved without unions? Unions had their time and place. They did not adapt to a changing environment. They pretty much made themselves extinct.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • surferdude wrote:
    Do you think the workplace would not have evolved without unions? Unions had their time and place. They did not adapt to a changing environment. They pretty much made themselves extinct.

    no, i do not think they would have. the trend was going anti-worker more and more. how would it have changed? who would have changed it? do you think the corporations would have just done it by themselves???
    those undecided, needn't have faith to be free
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    bryanfury wrote:
    no, i do not think they would have. the trend was going anti-worker more and more. how would it have changed? who would have changed it? do you think the corporations would have just done it by themselves???
    Unions have been in a serious decline for quite a while now. But my benefits package, pay package and vacation time keeps improving. America faces a huge shortage of highly skilled workers. Unions never represented these people or professionals. Companies have to keep improving workplace conditions, benefits and pay to interst workers in staying and in coming to the company. There is a trickle down effect to less skilled workers. In the 21st century it is the educated worker who is driving workplace improvements.

    If you want to credit unions for what you have, you better also credit them with driving offshore workers, third world country production facilities and with killing the big 3 auto companies in America.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • surferdude wrote:
    Unions have been in a serious decline for quite a while now. But my benefits package, pay package and vacation time keeps improving. America faces a huge shortage of highly skilled workers. Unions never represented these people or professionals. Companies have to keep improving workplace conditions, benefits and pay to interst workers in staying and in coming to the company. There is a trickle down effect to less skilled workers. In the 21st century it is the educated worker who is driving workplace improvements.

    If you want to credit unions for what you have, you better also credit them with driving offshore workers, third world country production facilities and with killing the big 3 auto companies in America.

    so unions are the problem with US automakers, not the sub standard cars they produce? and I won't even touch the other 2 there because the fact that our country wants to pay its workers a decent wage is a good thing. if you want to pay them 3rd world rates, then we'll turn into a third world nation.

    and yes, NOW companies are improving benefits because of competition. I truly believe that without unions, workers would have zero rights at this point in our history. are unions perfect? no. it leads to lazy and entitled workers. but the flipside is having all the power in the hands of the corps.

    i'll put the power in the hands of the people any day. if you feel that corps. deserve it, maybe you should move to china.
    those undecided, needn't have faith to be free
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    bryanfury wrote:
    if you feel that corps. deserve it, maybe you should move to china.
    No thanks. I'll take my chances being the in demand skilled worker in North America. While being glad I live in a country where I have the freedom the start my own business if I so desire, knowing that I'll reap the rewards for my risk-taking.

    I'm all for a fair trade of work for comensation. But inthe global economy you better have a highly skilled work set to trade with. If not a company will find an offshore company to do it.

    Just wondering if you are working on the foreign made computer costing $500 to $1,000. Or the made in USA by union model running $5-10K.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • surferdude wrote:
    No thanks. I'll take my chances being the in demand skilled worker in North America. While being glad I live in a country where I have the freedom the start my own business if I so desire, knowing that I'll reap the rewards for my risk-taking.

    I'm all for a fair trade of work for comensation. But inthe global economy you better have a highly skilled work set to trade with. If not a company will find an offshore company to do it.

    Just wondering if you are working on the foreign made computer costing $500 to $1,000. Or the made in USA by union model running $5-10K.

    i'm not sure what your point is? that we should buy american just because its american?

    the whole point i'm trying to enforce is that unions are this evil thing that we are lead to believe nowadays. we can't forget the many great things unions have done. and i just don;t see how you can pin all that stuff on unions. seems a bit of a stretch.
    those undecided, needn't have faith to be free
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    There are good Unions and bad Unions just as there are good Corporations and bad Corporations. The idea that one has defeated the other on some kind of global scale is kind of absurd.

    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • Yes, unions have been defeated. Good riddance.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Even clowns have Union representation.

    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,515
    Unions may help their members, but as a whole, they hurt the lower-income population as a whole.

    Some grocery checkers earn $20/hour...and get paid double or triple time on some holidays.

    As a result, groceries cost much more, so single moms have to pay inflated prices for baby food. Parents have to pay inflated admission prices to amusement parks because the food service staff are union.

    I am all for worker's rights in terms of workplace safety, but if an unskilled worker who is a union member expects to be paid $25/hour for moving some equipment on a movie set, I think there is something wrong happening in our society
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:
    Unions may help their members, but as a whole, they hurt the lower-income population as a whole.

    Some grocery checkers earn $20/hour...and get paid double or triple time on some holidays.

    As a result, groceries cost much more, so single moms have to pay inflated prices for baby food. Parents have to pay inflated admission prices to amusement parks because the food service staff are union.

    I am all for worker's rights in terms of workplace safety, but if an unskilled worker who is a union member expects to be paid $25/hour for moving some equipment on a movie set, I think there is something wrong happening in our society

    What grocery store is that? I'm applying.

    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • gue_barium wrote:
    What grocery store is that? I'm applying.

    I know! What a ridiculously exaggerated example.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    THC wrote:
    I saw something online a few days ago which said...a while back...General Motors was the biggest employer in the United States. The average salary of the person working for them was $45,000/yr. plus full benefits.

    Now, the biggest employer in the U.S. is Walmart. The average salary of the person working there is $19,000/yr. and partial if any benefits.


    and 2nd was mcdonalds....
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:
    Unions may help their members, but as a whole, they hurt the lower-income population as a whole.

    Some grocery checkers earn $20/hour...and get paid double or triple time on some holidays.

    As a result, groceries cost much more, so single moms have to pay inflated prices for baby food. Parents have to pay inflated admission prices to amusement parks because the food service staff are union.

    I am all for worker's rights in terms of workplace safety, but if an unskilled worker who is a union member expects to be paid $25/hour for moving some equipment on a movie set, I think there is something wrong happening in our society


    i'd be willing to be the profit exceeds their payroll. you can say things drive the price up, but whatever that thing is rarely exceeds the profit they are making.

    for example you can say giving every wal-mart associate under $25k/yr an extra dollar raise will drive up costs in the store...but how much of that inflation is based on the profits the ceos make? like i said, i'd be willing to bet that would be far more.

    isn't the avg ceo to avg worker pay rate someting like $371:$1??? they could easily keep prices the same as well as giving the avg worker a raise by reducing that to $361:$1, but that will never happen...it's far easier to blame the worker for wanting a fair share and an income they can LIVE on

    i won't even get into how they waste company money the numerous ways they do or how pharmaceutical companies advertising budgets far exceed their r&d budgets
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • Unions certainly played a key and positive role here in Oz and creating a society where there were not vast numbers of poor. However the unions also became corrupt and in the case of the construction industry did not allow non-union members to set foot on construction sites. If people want to join unions they should be encouraged to do so by their employers. If on the other hand people do not, they should not be vililfied by their co-workers or their union.
    The wind is blowing cold
    Have we lost our way tonight?
    Have we lost our hope to sorrow?

    Feels like were all alone
    Running further from what’s right
    And there are no more heroes to follow

    So what are we becoming?
    Where did we go wrong?
  • miller8966miller8966 Posts: 1,450
    El_Kabong wrote:
    i'd be willing to be the profit exceeds their payroll. you can say things drive the price up, but whatever that thing is rarely exceeds the profit they are making.

    for example you can say giving every wal-mart associate under $25k/yr an extra dollar raise will drive up costs in the store...but how much of that inflation is based on the profits the ceos make? like i said, i'd be willing to bet that would be far more.

    isn't the avg ceo to avg worker pay rate someting like $371:$1??? they could easily keep prices the same as well as giving the avg worker a raise by reducing that to $361:$1, but that will never happen...it's far easier to blame the worker for wanting a fair share and an income they can LIVE on

    i won't even get into how they waste company money the numerous ways they do or how pharmaceutical companies advertising budgets far exceed their r&d budgets

    Walmart and other corporations create jobs; maybe in your little fantasy world you dont need corporations, but here in the real world we do.
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    El_Kabong wrote:
    i'd be willing to be the profit exceeds their payroll. you can say things drive the price up, but whatever that thing is rarely exceeds the profit they are making.

    Profit is a good thing. Without profit there is no incentive for the business owner(s). If you can hire someone for $15/hr and keep prices down, why the hell would you pay them $20/hr and raise prices? As a consumer, I'm always happy to see prices lower. As a business person I'm always happy to see margins improving.

    El_Kabong wrote:
    for example you can say giving every wal-mart associate under $25k/yr an extra dollar raise will drive up costs in the store...but how much of that inflation is based on the profits the ceos make? like i said, i'd be willing to bet that would be far more.

    isn't the avg ceo to avg worker pay rate someting like $371:$1??? they could easily keep prices the same as well as giving the avg worker a raise by reducing that to $361:$1, but that will never happen...it's far easier to blame the worker for wanting a fair share and an income they can LIVE on


    CEO wages are determined by the market. Would you switch that function to a central planning committee?

    El_Kabong wrote:
    i won't even get into how they waste company money the numerous ways they do or how pharmaceutical companies advertising budgets far exceed their r&d budgets

    What is your answer? Government oversight of allowable corporate waste? I'm pretty sure the Government as their own little waste issues. Government approval of corporate budgets/spending?
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • miller8966miller8966 Posts: 1,450
    jeffbr wrote:
    Profit is a good thing. Without profit there is no incentive for the business owner(s). If you can hire someone for $15/hr and keep prices down, why the hell would you pay them $20/hr and raise prices? As a consumer, I'm always happy to see prices lower. As a business person I'm always happy to see margins improving.





    CEO wages are determined by the market. Would you switch that function to a central planning committee?




    What is your answer? Government oversight of allowable corporate waste? I'm pretty sure the Government as their own little waste issues. Government approval of corporate budgets/spending?

    Jeff you dont understand..most liberals dont work. Supply and demand and the economy is meaningless to a liberal.
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,515
    miller8966 wrote:
    Jeff you dont understand..most liberals dont work. Supply and demand and the economy is meaningless to a liberal.

    Your comments show that you are interested in insulting others, as opposed to voicing an opinion.
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    miller8966 wrote:
    Walmart and other corporations create jobs; maybe in your little fantasy world you dont need corporations, but here in the real world we do.

    maybe so, but they can also act ehtically, can they not? and to me, making billions in profit off the labor of ppl i pay so little that they can't even afford health insurance is wrong. maybe to you exploitation is ok, but i frown on it.
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    jeffbr wrote:
    Profit is a good thing. Without profit there is no incentive for the business owner(s). If you can hire someone for $15/hr and keep prices down, why the hell would you pay them $20/hr and raise prices? As a consumer, I'm always happy to see prices lower. As a business person I'm always happy to see margins improving.





    CEO wages are determined by the market. Would you switch that function to a central planning committee?




    What is your answer? Government oversight of allowable corporate waste? I'm pretty sure the Government as their own little waste issues. Government approval of corporate budgets/spending?


    my answer is:
    Main Entry: eth·ic
    Pronunciation: 'e-thik
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English ethik, from Middle French ethique, from Latin ethice, from Greek EthikE, from Ethikos
    1 plural but singular or plural in construction : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
    2 a : a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values <the present-day materialistic ethic> <an old-fashioned work ethic> -- often used in plural but sing. or plural in constr. <an elaborate ethics> <Christian ethics> b plural but singular or plural in construction : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group <professional ethics> c : a guiding philosophy d : a consciousness of moral importance <forge a conservation ethic>
    3 plural : a set of moral issues or aspects (as rightness) <debated the ethics of human cloning>


    and paying someone $20hr is different than paying someone so little they can't afford health insurance other than medicare/aid. but why does that person only deserve $15/hr if their ceo is making hundreds of times that for doing less? and don't give me that crap about building a company and making it thrive...there's more than enough examples of companies losing profit while the ceos get huge bonuses and pay
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,515
    El_Kabong wrote:
    i'd be willing to be the profit exceeds their payroll. you can say things drive the price up, but whatever that thing is rarely exceeds the profit they are making.

    for example you can say giving every wal-mart associate under $25k/yr an extra dollar raise will drive up costs in the store...but how much of that inflation is based on the profits the ceos make? like i said, i'd be willing to bet that would be far more.

    isn't the avg ceo to avg worker pay rate someting like $371:$1??? they could easily keep prices the same as well as giving the avg worker a raise by reducing that to $361:$1, but that will never happen...it's far easier to blame the worker for wanting a fair share and an income they can LIVE on

    i won't even get into how they waste company money the numerous ways they do or how pharmaceutical companies advertising budgets far exceed their r&d budgets

    I concur that everyone deserves a living wage.

    Who do you think owns the "corporations"?......we own them...our pension plans, our stock portfolios.....the profits make the shares more attractive, and that makes the values of our pensions go up.
Sign In or Register to comment.