Is it common for airplanes to just drop out of the sky with pilots of JFK's training level?
Does it seem unusual? Yes.
I agree but if you look at both sides of the story, the video and Tenzing, one side just seems more plausible and just makes more sense. At least to me.
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
I agree but if you look at both sides of the story, the video and Tenzing, one side just seems more plausible and just makes more sense. At least to me.
If the way the plane nose dived like that was more clear I would see it.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
If the way the plane nose dived like that was more clear I would see it.
also,
if he wasn't a kennedy,
it wouldn't be so damn suspicious.
but given that two kennedys have been murdered in known and apparent conspiracies by members of our government ... and that atleast one other one had his political career derailed in a conspiracy ...
this sure would "fit the pattern"
but oh well.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Roland- Please stop using the words nosed dived! It did not do this!!! Please review some of my earlier posts and please read the accident report. The most important thing to remember in all of his is that if the aircraft had indeed "nose dived" into the ocean there would have been pre-impact seperation of flying surfaces such as the elevator, rudder, or aileron. There may have also been evidence of pre-impact structrural seperation of componants such as cables or skin surfaces. THERE WAS NONE OF THIS PRESENT! NONE! The only catastrophic impact damage that had to do with the flying surfaces was rearward crushing consistent with water impact. I can't write too much right now because I am coincidently getting ready to take off from the same airport JFK jr. took off from. I'll try to submit a much more thorough explanation of some of the evidence later on tonight including disemination of the radar return data, some of the details of spacial disorientation and accident trends for pilots like him. Later- Capt. Tenzing N.
Roland- Please stop using the words nosed dived! It did not do this!!! Please review some of my earlier posts and please read the accident report. The most important thing to remember in all of his is that if the aircraft had indeed "nose dived" into the ocean there would have been pre-impact seperation of flying surfaces such as the elevator, rudder, or aileron. There may have also been evidence of pre-impact structrural seperation of componants such as cables or skin surfaces. THERE WAS NONE OF THIS PRESENT! NONE! The only catastrophic impact damage that had to do with the flying surfaces was rearward crushing consistent with water impact. I can't write too much right now because I am coincidently getting ready to take off from the same airport JFK jr. took off from. I'll try to submit a much more thorough explanation of some of the evidence later on tonight including disemination of the radar return data, some of the details of spacial disorientation and accident trends for pilots like him. Later- Capt. Tenzing N.
you know.
whether he debunks this one or not (which it certainly does appear)
... i like this guy ... this Cpt. Tenzing.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Roland- Please stop using the words nosed dived! It did not do this!!! Please review some of my earlier posts and please read the accident report. The most important thing to remember in all of his is that if the aircraft had indeed "nose dived" into the ocean there would have been pre-impact seperation of flying surfaces such as the elevator, rudder, or aileron. There may have also been evidence of pre-impact structrural seperation of componants such as cables or skin surfaces. THERE WAS NONE OF THIS PRESENT! NONE! The only catastrophic impact damage that had to do with the flying surfaces was rearward crushing consistent with water impact. I can't write too much right now because I am coincidently getting ready to take off from the same airport JFK jr. took off from. I'll try to submit a much more thorough explanation of some of the evidence later on tonight including disemination of the radar return data, some of the details of spacial disorientation and accident trends for pilots like him. Later- Capt. Tenzing N.
well let me know how you think it came down. The angle looked pretty sharp according to the video. I wasn't there myself personally, so I'm going from what is presented.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Allright everybody- I'm back and ready to put this thing to bed! I'll start by saying that despite everything I say I realize some will just not be convinced but I would be remiss to let this die without those who CAN be convinced get the correct information. This will be lengthy so bear with me.
First let me address the questions of flight path in the final three or four minutes along with some basic radar and flight principles. As the accident report states the last few minutes of this flight were quite varied. He initially was in a straight and level condition and then descended to 2200 feet in a right hand turn. He subsequently climbed to 2500 feet in a left hand turn, remained there for a few seconds and then climbed for 30 seconds to 2600 feet. After that he then entered a right hand descending turn. This turn initially had a descent rate of around 800 to 900 feet per minute and gradually increased to a 45 degree bank and a radar determined descent rate of around 4700 feet per minute over aproximately one minute.
Let me pause here and explain how they got this information. The radar transmitter in this area is located approximately 40 miles away from the crash site negating any discrepency due to range. (it's accurate at this distance) The beam sweeps around once every 12 seconds. The radar works in conjuction with regular radar principles (judging altitude and distance based soley from the literal reflection of the object) and information it recieves from an operable mode C transponder (xponder for short here)located on the airplane. The xponder works by recieving a signal from the radar station and then transmitting a coded signal back to that station which in a simple mode includes the altitude only. At the time of the accident JFK's xponder was set to this mode so the radar returns would show an operator only that it was an aircraft at xxxx altitude. Nothing else. The radar returns are recorded and stored for 90 days. These radars have some limitations including line of site which is why the last return was at 1200 feet. Either it could not see that far down or the aircraft descended from that altitude to sea level in less than 12 seconds.
The investigators reviewed the radar tapes and from these determined all of the final flight path from them with the help of some math and extrapolation.
The key to the radar returns is the fact that the aircraft was initially in straight and level flight before entering these turns, climbs and descents and then crashing. I'll never admit I'm an expert on psychology but I don't think that anyone commiting suicide would have spent so much time imitating spacial disorientation before actually hitting the water.
*****Contrary to what the video may depict at no time was the aircraft in a "nose dive". From what the radar indicates it's greatest nose down attitude was 30 DEGREES.
Next- there is a TON of evidence that can be gleamed form the instruments in this case but first let me tell you how they get this information.
There are really only 6 true instruments in any aircraft that are used to fly. They exist in all powered aircraft in some form or another. These are the attitude indicator (artificial horizon), Altimeter, Turn coordinator (turn and bank indicator), vertical speed indicator, Airspeed indicator, and heading indicator. The Artificial horizon, heading indicator and turn coordinator all work on the gyroscopic principle. That is a small gyroscope located inside the instruments housing spins at an extremely high rate (30000 rpms).
I'm on a hotel computer so part two in a few minutes-
Back to the instruments. Like I said- these instruments rotate internally very quickly as long as they receive power. The rotating disks are heavy and made of metal and resist change. As the aircraft changes attitude the disks stay stationary with respect to the horizon and through a complex system of mechanical linkages this information is transmitted to a needle or representation on an instrument. These instruments show the pilot what the aircraft is doing in terms of attitude both bank and pitch. **The interesting thing about these instruments is that they turn into little witnesses upon impact. The investigators know this. They put an instrument under magnification and look for the faint lines that the needles leave as they impact the face of that instrument. So- for example- in this case the plane was traveling at 220 knots at the time of impact. The needle was pointed at that speed and hit the face leaving a mark there. All of the instruments can be read this way revealing exactly what happened at impact to the knot and degree. Another interesting fact is that they can tell if the instrument was working correctly by looking at the spinning disks. If they were functioning at impact they will not show any signs of rotational scarring. These instruments did not show any of these signs indicating they were working well.
I will not go any deeper here unless you really want but let me finish this part by explaining that there was no evidence of failure or sabotage to any part of the aircraft. **There was corresponding evidence both internally and externally that the aircraft was in a 45 degree right hand turn with a 25 degree nose down attitude at time of impact. This attitude is coincident to that of an aircraft which was not in a “nose dive” but was in a “graveyard spiral” which will now be covered at length.
JFK jr. was NOT a very experienced pilot. He only had about 350 hours in any aircraft and had only 30 hours in this particular aircraft- all of it with an instructor. He did not- contrary to what I had previously thought, have an instrument rating. He was not trained to operate in this type of environment. There are many things going against this guy and I will attempt to explain some of them but to be hones this is one of my specialties so I could write for hours.
First let me explain that an aircraft in flight can trick your mind in many ways. Most of the training for an instrument rating is designed to teach you how to ignore these tricks but they are hard to ignore and virtually impossible to ignore if you are not properly trained. The problem is that an aircraft changes attitude sometimes rather slowly or for prolonged periods of time. You sense your own personal attitude with three small lobes in your inner ear. These lobes are fluid filled and sense the changes in your own directions by the movement of liquid within the lobes. The problem is that if you move too slowly or if you move for too long the fluid in the lobes ceases to move and your inner ears believe you are now stationary. If you bank an aircraft for much more than a few seconds the fluid has time to stabilize and without some outside reference you will no longer know what attitude you and the aircraft are at. This is called the Coriolis illusion. This is one of a few illusions that are somewhat similar but all result in your brain telling you something that is not really true.
**Pilots with his level of experience are very susceptible to this type of illusion and will often rely solely on what their body is telling them to determine their attitude in flight. ******If during the small maneuvers he was doing he lost sight of an outside visual reference such as a horizon he could have believed that he was turning left when he was actually turning right. This will often become such a powerful belief that a pilot will now attempt to bring the aircraft back to level flight- thus making the turn even steeper and upon sensing a steeper turn try even harder to level the wing only making things worse. Steeper and steeper. Sound familiar? (one of the consequences of a steepening bank angle is a loss of vertical lift and thus a dropping of the nose. The steeper the bank angle the lower the nose will drop if you don't know to pull the nose up.) ****This will result in what is called a graveyard spiral. Not matter what the pilot does to try to correct it will only make things worse. If you have not been through the proper training to recognize this you will probably fall prey to it. JFK Jr. had not been through the proper training to deal with this!!! Secondarily, the common training methods for pilots at that time was to focus most of your attention on everything except the one instrument, the attitude indicator, that would have probably saved him. The rational is that the Attitude indicator is the instrument most likely to fail so don't depend on it. In reality it fails rarely but if you distrust it as a result of poor training than you distrust it I guess. In more advanced training pilots are taught to depend almost exclusively on this instrument to get them out of an unusual attitude. I will repeat that this instrument was working at the time of impact.
*****In summary- JFK Jr. was not an experienced pilot for this type of operation. Although his aircraft was working correctly he fell victim to spacial disorientation most likely as a result of loosing outside visual reference. This disorientation resulted in him entering an unintentional right hand descending turn into the ocean. ALL of the available evidence indicates NOT an intentional maneuver that would result in the crash!
Finally- to put out some more fires before they start. He was not “hijacked” or forced to crash the airplane. Upon examination of the body- among other things- his thumbs were broken. This happens because when the aircraft hits the ground or water the pilot has his hands wrapped around the flight controls and as the airplane hits the ground the controls violently come backward, snapping the thumbs and occasionally the wrists. If he had been fighting someone off the controls this would not have happened!
The aircraft was not sabotaged because he had been airborne without incident for several minutes before hand and again there was no evidence of foul play.
To top it all off why would this all be staged so elaborately when if you really wanted to kill him all you would have to do is put a small amount of water in his gas tanks? This is a common known thing among anyone who knows much about small planes. The water can be made virtually undetectable, you wouldn't need much and it causes the engine to quit soon after take-off most of the time. This may not kill him because as I stated earlier you can still glide without an engine but in a congested area such as New Jersey he probably would not have made it down safely.
I hope I've answered a few more questions and uncovered a few more inaccuracies in that video. Thank you for reading this as I feel it's important to know all of the facts before you believe anything. I may not know all of them but I know more than that video's producer who, by the way, didn't even have the correct tail number of the aircraft in the video. You friend in the skies, Capt. Tenzing.
Comments
I agree but if you look at both sides of the story, the video and Tenzing, one side just seems more plausible and just makes more sense. At least to me.
Pensacola '94
New Orleans '95
Birmingham '98
New Orleans '00
New Orleans '03
Tampa '08
New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest
New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest
Fenway Park '18
St. Louis '22
If the way the plane nose dived like that was more clear I would see it.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
also,
if he wasn't a kennedy,
it wouldn't be so damn suspicious.
but given that two kennedys have been murdered in known and apparent conspiracies by members of our government ... and that atleast one other one had his political career derailed in a conspiracy ...
this sure would "fit the pattern"
but oh well.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
you know.
whether he debunks this one or not (which it certainly does appear)
... i like this guy ... this Cpt. Tenzing.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
well let me know how you think it came down. The angle looked pretty sharp according to the video. I wasn't there myself personally, so I'm going from what is presented.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
First let me address the questions of flight path in the final three or four minutes along with some basic radar and flight principles. As the accident report states the last few minutes of this flight were quite varied. He initially was in a straight and level condition and then descended to 2200 feet in a right hand turn. He subsequently climbed to 2500 feet in a left hand turn, remained there for a few seconds and then climbed for 30 seconds to 2600 feet. After that he then entered a right hand descending turn. This turn initially had a descent rate of around 800 to 900 feet per minute and gradually increased to a 45 degree bank and a radar determined descent rate of around 4700 feet per minute over aproximately one minute.
Let me pause here and explain how they got this information. The radar transmitter in this area is located approximately 40 miles away from the crash site negating any discrepency due to range. (it's accurate at this distance) The beam sweeps around once every 12 seconds. The radar works in conjuction with regular radar principles (judging altitude and distance based soley from the literal reflection of the object) and information it recieves from an operable mode C transponder (xponder for short here)located on the airplane. The xponder works by recieving a signal from the radar station and then transmitting a coded signal back to that station which in a simple mode includes the altitude only. At the time of the accident JFK's xponder was set to this mode so the radar returns would show an operator only that it was an aircraft at xxxx altitude. Nothing else. The radar returns are recorded and stored for 90 days. These radars have some limitations including line of site which is why the last return was at 1200 feet. Either it could not see that far down or the aircraft descended from that altitude to sea level in less than 12 seconds.
The investigators reviewed the radar tapes and from these determined all of the final flight path from them with the help of some math and extrapolation.
The key to the radar returns is the fact that the aircraft was initially in straight and level flight before entering these turns, climbs and descents and then crashing. I'll never admit I'm an expert on psychology but I don't think that anyone commiting suicide would have spent so much time imitating spacial disorientation before actually hitting the water.
*****Contrary to what the video may depict at no time was the aircraft in a "nose dive". From what the radar indicates it's greatest nose down attitude was 30 DEGREES.
Next- there is a TON of evidence that can be gleamed form the instruments in this case but first let me tell you how they get this information.
There are really only 6 true instruments in any aircraft that are used to fly. They exist in all powered aircraft in some form or another. These are the attitude indicator (artificial horizon), Altimeter, Turn coordinator (turn and bank indicator), vertical speed indicator, Airspeed indicator, and heading indicator. The Artificial horizon, heading indicator and turn coordinator all work on the gyroscopic principle. That is a small gyroscope located inside the instruments housing spins at an extremely high rate (30000 rpms).
I'm on a hotel computer so part two in a few minutes-
Back to the instruments. Like I said- these instruments rotate internally very quickly as long as they receive power. The rotating disks are heavy and made of metal and resist change. As the aircraft changes attitude the disks stay stationary with respect to the horizon and through a complex system of mechanical linkages this information is transmitted to a needle or representation on an instrument. These instruments show the pilot what the aircraft is doing in terms of attitude both bank and pitch. **The interesting thing about these instruments is that they turn into little witnesses upon impact. The investigators know this. They put an instrument under magnification and look for the faint lines that the needles leave as they impact the face of that instrument. So- for example- in this case the plane was traveling at 220 knots at the time of impact. The needle was pointed at that speed and hit the face leaving a mark there. All of the instruments can be read this way revealing exactly what happened at impact to the knot and degree. Another interesting fact is that they can tell if the instrument was working correctly by looking at the spinning disks. If they were functioning at impact they will not show any signs of rotational scarring. These instruments did not show any of these signs indicating they were working well.
I will not go any deeper here unless you really want but let me finish this part by explaining that there was no evidence of failure or sabotage to any part of the aircraft. **There was corresponding evidence both internally and externally that the aircraft was in a 45 degree right hand turn with a 25 degree nose down attitude at time of impact. This attitude is coincident to that of an aircraft which was not in a “nose dive” but was in a “graveyard spiral” which will now be covered at length.
JFK jr. was NOT a very experienced pilot. He only had about 350 hours in any aircraft and had only 30 hours in this particular aircraft- all of it with an instructor. He did not- contrary to what I had previously thought, have an instrument rating. He was not trained to operate in this type of environment. There are many things going against this guy and I will attempt to explain some of them but to be hones this is one of my specialties so I could write for hours.
First let me explain that an aircraft in flight can trick your mind in many ways. Most of the training for an instrument rating is designed to teach you how to ignore these tricks but they are hard to ignore and virtually impossible to ignore if you are not properly trained. The problem is that an aircraft changes attitude sometimes rather slowly or for prolonged periods of time. You sense your own personal attitude with three small lobes in your inner ear. These lobes are fluid filled and sense the changes in your own directions by the movement of liquid within the lobes. The problem is that if you move too slowly or if you move for too long the fluid in the lobes ceases to move and your inner ears believe you are now stationary. If you bank an aircraft for much more than a few seconds the fluid has time to stabilize and without some outside reference you will no longer know what attitude you and the aircraft are at. This is called the Coriolis illusion. This is one of a few illusions that are somewhat similar but all result in your brain telling you something that is not really true.
**Pilots with his level of experience are very susceptible to this type of illusion and will often rely solely on what their body is telling them to determine their attitude in flight. ******If during the small maneuvers he was doing he lost sight of an outside visual reference such as a horizon he could have believed that he was turning left when he was actually turning right. This will often become such a powerful belief that a pilot will now attempt to bring the aircraft back to level flight- thus making the turn even steeper and upon sensing a steeper turn try even harder to level the wing only making things worse. Steeper and steeper. Sound familiar? (one of the consequences of a steepening bank angle is a loss of vertical lift and thus a dropping of the nose. The steeper the bank angle the lower the nose will drop if you don't know to pull the nose up.) ****This will result in what is called a graveyard spiral. Not matter what the pilot does to try to correct it will only make things worse. If you have not been through the proper training to recognize this you will probably fall prey to it. JFK Jr. had not been through the proper training to deal with this!!! Secondarily, the common training methods for pilots at that time was to focus most of your attention on everything except the one instrument, the attitude indicator, that would have probably saved him. The rational is that the Attitude indicator is the instrument most likely to fail so don't depend on it. In reality it fails rarely but if you distrust it as a result of poor training than you distrust it I guess. In more advanced training pilots are taught to depend almost exclusively on this instrument to get them out of an unusual attitude. I will repeat that this instrument was working at the time of impact.
*****In summary- JFK Jr. was not an experienced pilot for this type of operation. Although his aircraft was working correctly he fell victim to spacial disorientation most likely as a result of loosing outside visual reference. This disorientation resulted in him entering an unintentional right hand descending turn into the ocean. ALL of the available evidence indicates NOT an intentional maneuver that would result in the crash!
Finally- to put out some more fires before they start. He was not “hijacked” or forced to crash the airplane. Upon examination of the body- among other things- his thumbs were broken. This happens because when the aircraft hits the ground or water the pilot has his hands wrapped around the flight controls and as the airplane hits the ground the controls violently come backward, snapping the thumbs and occasionally the wrists. If he had been fighting someone off the controls this would not have happened!
The aircraft was not sabotaged because he had been airborne without incident for several minutes before hand and again there was no evidence of foul play.
To top it all off why would this all be staged so elaborately when if you really wanted to kill him all you would have to do is put a small amount of water in his gas tanks? This is a common known thing among anyone who knows much about small planes. The water can be made virtually undetectable, you wouldn't need much and it causes the engine to quit soon after take-off most of the time. This may not kill him because as I stated earlier you can still glide without an engine but in a congested area such as New Jersey he probably would not have made it down safely.
I hope I've answered a few more questions and uncovered a few more inaccuracies in that video. Thank you for reading this as I feel it's important to know all of the facts before you believe anything. I may not know all of them but I know more than that video's producer who, by the way, didn't even have the correct tail number of the aircraft in the video. You friend in the skies, Capt. Tenzing.