JFK Jr. Killed Himself Because He Hated Fame and Fortune

Gary Carter

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

He was FIVE MINUTES from landing ... he was 14 miles away from the landing strip ... he had just pulled back up from 2,200ft to 2,500 ft because his gradual decent to 2,500 was over shot ... FAA rules require a pause at 2,500ft to notify tower of intent to land ...

the radar record of his flight path PROVES this ... he gradually decends to 2,200ft, pulls up to 2,500ft ... presumably notifies the tower of his intent to land ... the first news broadcast assumes this, since the guy was dead-on correct with the time he gives to the minute ... and then ... what?

He lost control? What happened metsfan?

HIS PLANE PLUMMETED STRAIGHT DOWN IN TO THE OCEAN! WITH THE FUEL LINES SHUT OFF!

WHY?
JFK Jr. was such a bumbling idiot that he couldn't look at a simple instrument and determin up from down? Attitude Indicator OR Artificial Horizon ... everyone knows how to use that thing ... oh wait, I'm upside down, duh!

GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK!
He passed his "Instruments Only\ No Visual Flight" Examination, both the written and the practical portions ... he WAS qualified, he just needed to log hours ... which would be even more reason for him to HAVE a flight instructor on board.

huh.
what is your reasoning for why his plane just PLUMMETED STRAIGHT DOWN?

Pilot error, huh?

wow that's pretty amazing stupidity.
The guy must have been more stupid than GW Bush.

my reasoning is that it was foggy night and wasnt he also on meds, that could be the reason why. jfk jr was a stupid ass if your gonna fly why not do it when its a clear night not when its foggy, did he have to get where he was going that badly.yeah it was pliot error, sometimes a plane you lose control shit happens. this idea that someone was on it is fucking stupid and im surprised you outta all the people believe it, maybe the neo cons were in on it :rolleyes:. point is he shouldnt of flown cause obivously he couldnt handle the fog and didnt have enough flight time in the air. sucks we lost him cause he probably would ran for president in 04 or 00 and we wouldnt have the dumb fuck that we do now running this country

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Bump for the Video.

A lot of logic to be found in there...

Tenzing N.

I know all of this because I spent way too much time researching this accident for my accident investigation course a few years back. My class discussed this accident for over two weeks covering everything form the ocean currents in the area and their effects on the wreckage pattern to the way Piper Aircraft constructs their main spars in this aircraft. Constant span by the way.

This whole thing is funny actually because we didn't even talk about the fuel selector very long because the engine was running at the time of impact. The MOST common misconception among almost the entire flying public is that the airplane will not fly without the engine running. Even if he had for some reason accidentally turned off the fuel and the engine had quit he would have had around 5 minutes to glide toward land and make a distress call on 121.5. That said I will address a few of the questions.

1. Just answered that one

2. Filing a flight plan is fine if you know exactly when you are going to take off and are in the mood to figure out all of the information. The problem is that if you file and activate a flight plan and you don't close it they will come looking for you shortly after you’re expected down time if don't call them and tell them you're where you're supposed to be. Secondly- if he had been flying with a flight instructor the entire time before this it’s feasible that his instructor had been filing these flight plans and John wasn’t comfortable dealing with it.

3. I don’t know what this flight log is exactly in this case since I didn’t waste my time watching the video but there is no regulatory requirement to have a list of who is on board a part 91 flight. Additionally- they did not recover all of the wreckage. It’s very difficult to do this on land and IMPOSSIBLE in the ocean.

4. Again- it’s not mandatory to have a voice recorder on a part 91 flight. Since it’s not mandatory they probably didn’t spend too much time looking for it . Additionally this type of accident would not have been the result of some communication error. If anything all it would have recorded would have been the screams of both the passenger and the engine- hardly useful information. As far as the backup battery- I wouldn’t have replaced mine in my plane either if it cost more than 10 cents.

5. I explained this earlier but I will revisit it as it seems you weren’t convinced. It’s not as simple as knowing up from down in an airplane in IMC at night. It’s incredibly difficult at times depending on your experience and the conditions. It’s HARD!!! As for the altitude variation- 2200 feet is not a normal altitude to be at. I would assume that either he meant to be at 2500 and during the process of looking out for something or looking at a chart for a frequency he lost 300 feet or he thought he should descend and, upon seeing how far out he was, changed his mind and went back up to 2500. Either way this altitude deviation is moot unless it’s an indication of the beginning of his spacial disorientation. Also- it is not mandatory to contact the controlling agency at exactly 2500 feet. This is simply the top of class D airspace out there. At this distance he could have called them at 1 foot if he wanted to. And he didn’t immediately “nose dive” straight into the ocean. The radar returns show some turns and changes prior to the last readout. *****THIS PART IS IMPORTANT READ IT**** If he had been committing suicide it would have been a straight push all the way from altitude to sea level with subsequent in-flight structural break up (evidenced by detached and missing flight surfaces such as empennage or ailerons). This was seen in the Egypt air flight not too many years later. If his plane had been sabotaged he would have simply glided it for some time (maybe 5 minutes) and he could have easily made a distress call. There was, incidentally, no evidence post impact of anything that would have brought the plane down. As it was pilot induced he would have been too busy trying to correct it to call out and under just enough control to avoid overstressing the airframe to the point of failure.

6, 7, and 8 Don’t know but I don’t think it matters in this case

9. How would the FAA know what the probable location was if he never filed a flight plan and was not under continuous radar control? It’s not possible. And assuming he had been on a flight plan the normal route for this flight for small single engine aircraft was over land most of the way- they would have sent the rescuers to the wrong area. In fact they did send the searchers to the wrong area initially when it was found that he intended to go where he was going. This was a contributing factor in the length of the search.

10. I assume you meant why wasn’t the beacon used? These- unlike CVRs and FDRs are not water proof. It didn’t work under water.

11. 12 and 13. Again- if he wasn’t on a flight plan then the feds would have to assume the best initially. There was no guarantee in the form of a flight plan that he was actually going where he said he was going. They had to search his start location- every inch of his supposed destination and several airports in between to make sure he hadn’t just gone somewhere else and not told anyone.

14. a. no flight plan and no positive radar control = nobody saw or cared what that nameless blob on the radar did. B. and c.- read the answer to number 11, 12 and 13.

There you have it- please give up on this one. There is too much evidence to show what actually happened: uncontrolled flight into the ocean as a result of spacial disorientation. Please read the entire full narrative on the NTSB website if you’re not convinced. I’ll go into much, much further detail on some of these points if you really want but please just give up.

keeponrockin

LOTS of info in this thread! Thanks Tenzing.

jeffbr

Tenzing N. wrote:

There you have it- please give up on this one. There is too much evidence to show what actually happened: uncontrolled flight into the ocean as a result of spacial disorientation. Please read the entire full narrative on the NTSB website if you’re not convinced. I’ll go into much, much further detail on some of these points if you really want but please just give up.

Well done, Tenzing N.

Not everything has to be a conspiracy. Most of the time things are as they appear. Most of the time a cigar is just a cigar.

DriftingByTheStorm

jeffbr wrote:

Well done, Tenzing N.

Not everything has to be a conspiracy. Most of the time things are as they appear. Most of the time a cigar is just a cigar.

Agreed.
But I really like my penis.

I may give this one to Tenzig,
but i'm going to leave it at "i don't know but we'll go with it."



Thanks Tenzig, for taking the time regardless.
It's nice to see somone on here who DOES enjoy rational argument and debate.
Your arguments are solid if not all-convincing.

Flannel Shirt

Pj_Gurl wrote:

I find it really, really creepy that someone would say that. Unless of course they forgot the smiley face or winky eye....

u2? lol! dude is definately a bit creepy, especially after that statement that I am still trying to make some sense out of, but brings forth ideas/theories worth discussion nonetheless.
and, dont trust tenzing N....he is a neo con planted in this pit by the adminsitration to argue on their behalf. he is PART OF THE CONSPIRACY!

i am only half kidding.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

I'd like to see findings of spacial disorientation on pilots what that amount of air time, before I fully believe it really happened.

MakingWaves

I am amazed over and over again how just because someone posts a conspiracy video on the internet and says things are factual people just eat it up as if it has to be fact.
After reading these posts I would say Tenzing N has pretty much poked holes in all of these theories but once again people will never admit they could be have been wrong. All because a conspiracy video on the internet says so.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

MakingWaves wrote:

I am amazed over and over again how just because someone posts a conspiracy video on the internet and says things are factual people just eat it up as if it has to be fact.
After reading these posts I would say Tenzing N has pretty much poked holes in all of these theories but once again people will never admit they could be have been wrong. All because a conspiracy video on the internet says so.

Is it common for airplanes to just drop out of the sky with pilots of JFK's training level?

Does it seem unusual? Yes.

MakingWaves

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Is it common for airplanes to just drop out of the sky with pilots of JFK's training level?

Does it seem unusual? Yes.

I agree but if you look at both sides of the story, the video and Tenzing, one side just seems more plausible and just makes more sense. At least to me.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

MakingWaves wrote:

I agree but if you look at both sides of the story, the video and Tenzing, one side just seems more plausible and just makes more sense. At least to me.

If the way the plane nose dived like that was more clear I would see it.

DriftingByTheStorm

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

If the way the plane nose dived like that was more clear I would see it.

also,
if he wasn't a kennedy,
it wouldn't be so damn suspicious.

but given that two kennedys have been murdered in known and apparent conspiracies by members of our government ... and that atleast one other one had his political career derailed in a conspiracy ...

this sure would "fit the pattern"

but oh well.

Tenzing N.

Roland- Please stop using the words nosed dived! It did not do this!!! Please review some of my earlier posts and please read the accident report. The most important thing to remember in all of his is that if the aircraft had indeed "nose dived" into the ocean there would have been pre-impact seperation of flying surfaces such as the elevator, rudder, or aileron. There may have also been evidence of pre-impact structrural seperation of componants such as cables or skin surfaces. THERE WAS NONE OF THIS PRESENT! NONE! The only catastrophic impact damage that had to do with the flying surfaces was rearward crushing consistent with water impact. I can't write too much right now because I am coincidently getting ready to take off from the same airport JFK jr. took off from. I'll try to submit a much more thorough explanation of some of the evidence later on tonight including disemination of the radar return data, some of the details of spacial disorientation and accident trends for pilots like him. Later- Capt. Tenzing N.

DriftingByTheStorm

Tenzing N. wrote:

Roland- Please stop using the words nosed dived! It did not do this!!! Please review some of my earlier posts and please read the accident report. The most important thing to remember in all of his is that if the aircraft had indeed "nose dived" into the ocean there would have been pre-impact seperation of flying surfaces such as the elevator, rudder, or aileron. There may have also been evidence of pre-impact structrural seperation of componants such as cables or skin surfaces. THERE WAS NONE OF THIS PRESENT! NONE! The only catastrophic impact damage that had to do with the flying surfaces was rearward crushing consistent with water impact. I can't write too much right now because I am coincidently getting ready to take off from the same airport JFK jr. took off from. I'll try to submit a much more thorough explanation of some of the evidence later on tonight including disemination of the radar return data, some of the details of spacial disorientation and accident trends for pilots like him. Later- Capt. Tenzing N.

you know.
whether he debunks this one or not (which it certainly does appear)

... i like this guy ... this Cpt. Tenzing.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uaHDa3gd8Qk

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Tenzing N. wrote:

Roland- Please stop using the words nosed dived! It did not do this!!! Please review some of my earlier posts and please read the accident report. The most important thing to remember in all of his is that if the aircraft had indeed "nose dived" into the ocean there would have been pre-impact seperation of flying surfaces such as the elevator, rudder, or aileron. There may have also been evidence of pre-impact structrural seperation of componants such as cables or skin surfaces. THERE WAS NONE OF THIS PRESENT! NONE! The only catastrophic impact damage that had to do with the flying surfaces was rearward crushing consistent with water impact. I can't write too much right now because I am coincidently getting ready to take off from the same airport JFK jr. took off from. I'll try to submit a much more thorough explanation of some of the evidence later on tonight including disemination of the radar return data, some of the details of spacial disorientation and accident trends for pilots like him. Later- Capt. Tenzing N.

well let me know how you think it came down. The angle looked pretty sharp according to the video. I wasn't there myself personally, so I'm going from what is presented.

Tenzing N.

Allright everybody- I'm back and ready to put this thing to bed! I'll start by saying that despite everything I say I realize some will just not be convinced but I would be remiss to let this die without those who CAN be convinced get the correct information. This will be lengthy so bear with me.

First let me address the questions of flight path in the final three or four minutes along with some basic radar and flight principles. As the accident report states the last few minutes of this flight were quite varied. He initially was in a straight and level condition and then descended to 2200 feet in a right hand turn. He subsequently climbed to 2500 feet in a left hand turn, remained there for a few seconds and then climbed for 30 seconds to 2600 feet. After that he then entered a right hand descending turn. This turn initially had a descent rate of around 800 to 900 feet per minute and gradually increased to a 45 degree bank and a radar determined descent rate of around 4700 feet per minute over aproximately one minute.

Let me pause here and explain how they got this information. The radar transmitter in this area is located approximately 40 miles away from the crash site negating any discrepency due to range. (it's accurate at this distance) The beam sweeps around once every 12 seconds. The radar works in conjuction with regular radar principles (judging altitude and distance based soley from the literal reflection of the object) and information it recieves from an operable mode C transponder (xponder for short here)located on the airplane. The xponder works by recieving a signal from the radar station and then transmitting a coded signal back to that station which in a simple mode includes the altitude only. At the time of the accident JFK's xponder was set to this mode so the radar returns would show an operator only that it was an aircraft at xxxx altitude. Nothing else. The radar returns are recorded and stored for 90 days. These radars have some limitations including line of site which is why the last return was at 1200 feet. Either it could not see that far down or the aircraft descended from that altitude to sea level in less than 12 seconds.

The investigators reviewed the radar tapes and from these determined all of the final flight path from them with the help of some math and extrapolation.

The key to the radar returns is the fact that the aircraft was initially in straight and level flight before entering these turns, climbs and descents and then crashing. I'll never admit I'm an expert on psychology but I don't think that anyone commiting suicide would have spent so much time imitating spacial disorientation before actually hitting the water.

*****Contrary to what the video may depict at no time was the aircraft in a "nose dive". From what the radar indicates it's greatest nose down attitude was 30 DEGREES.

Next- there is a TON of evidence that can be gleamed form the instruments in this case but first let me tell you how they get this information.

There are really only 6 true instruments in any aircraft that are used to fly. They exist in all powered aircraft in some form or another. These are the attitude indicator (artificial horizon), Altimeter, Turn coordinator (turn and bank indicator), vertical speed indicator, Airspeed indicator, and heading indicator. The Artificial horizon, heading indicator and turn coordinator all work on the gyroscopic principle. That is a small gyroscope located inside the instruments housing spins at an extremely high rate (30000 rpms).

I'm on a hotel computer so part two in a few minutes-

Tenzing N.

OK part 2-

Back to the instruments. Like I said- these instruments rotate internally very quickly as long as they receive power. The rotating disks are heavy and made of metal and resist change. As the aircraft changes attitude the disks stay stationary with respect to the horizon and through a complex system of mechanical linkages this information is transmitted to a needle or representation on an instrument. These instruments show the pilot what the aircraft is doing in terms of attitude both bank and pitch. **The interesting thing about these instruments is that they turn into little witnesses upon impact. The investigators know this. They put an instrument under magnification and look for the faint lines that the needles leave as they impact the face of that instrument. So- for example- in this case the plane was traveling at 220 knots at the time of impact. The needle was pointed at that speed and hit the face leaving a mark there. All of the instruments can be read this way revealing exactly what happened at impact to the knot and degree. Another interesting fact is that they can tell if the instrument was working correctly by looking at the spinning disks. If they were functioning at impact they will not show any signs of rotational scarring. These instruments did not show any of these signs indicating they were working well.

I will not go any deeper here unless you really want but let me finish this part by explaining that there was no evidence of failure or sabotage to any part of the aircraft. **There was corresponding evidence both internally and externally that the aircraft was in a 45 degree right hand turn with a 25 degree nose down attitude at time of impact. This attitude is coincident to that of an aircraft which was not in a “nose dive” but was in a “graveyard spiral” which will now be covered at length.

JFK jr. was NOT a very experienced pilot. He only had about 350 hours in any aircraft and had only 30 hours in this particular aircraft- all of it with an instructor. He did not- contrary to what I had previously thought, have an instrument rating. He was not trained to operate in this type of environment. There are many things going against this guy and I will attempt to explain some of them but to be hones this is one of my specialties so I could write for hours.

First let me explain that an aircraft in flight can trick your mind in many ways. Most of the training for an instrument rating is designed to teach you how to ignore these tricks but they are hard to ignore and virtually impossible to ignore if you are not properly trained. The problem is that an aircraft changes attitude sometimes rather slowly or for prolonged periods of time. You sense your own personal attitude with three small lobes in your inner ear. These lobes are fluid filled and sense the changes in your own directions by the movement of liquid within the lobes. The problem is that if you move too slowly or if you move for too long the fluid in the lobes ceases to move and your inner ears believe you are now stationary. If you bank an aircraft for much more than a few seconds the fluid has time to stabilize and without some outside reference you will no longer know what attitude you and the aircraft are at. This is called the Coriolis illusion. This is one of a few illusions that are somewhat similar but all result in your brain telling you something that is not really true.
**Pilots with his level of experience are very susceptible to this type of illusion and will often rely solely on what their body is telling them to determine their attitude in flight. ******If during the small maneuvers he was doing he lost sight of an outside visual reference such as a horizon he could have believed that he was turning left when he was actually turning right. This will often become such a powerful belief that a pilot will now attempt to bring the aircraft back to level flight- thus making the turn even steeper and upon sensing a steeper turn try even harder to level the wing only making things worse. Steeper and steeper. Sound familiar? (one of the consequences of a steepening bank angle is a loss of vertical lift and thus a dropping of the nose. The steeper the bank angle the lower the nose will drop if you don't know to pull the nose up.) ****This will result in what is called a graveyard spiral. Not matter what the pilot does to try to correct it will only make things worse. If you have not been through the proper training to recognize this you will probably fall prey to it. JFK Jr. had not been through the proper training to deal with this!!! Secondarily, the common training methods for pilots at that time was to focus most of your attention on everything except the one instrument, the attitude indicator, that would have probably saved him. The rational is that the Attitude indicator is the instrument most likely to fail so don't depend on it. In reality it fails rarely but if you distrust it as a result of poor training than you distrust it I guess. In more advanced training pilots are taught to depend almost exclusively on this instrument to get them out of an unusual attitude. I will repeat that this instrument was working at the time of impact.

*****In summary- JFK Jr. was not an experienced pilot for this type of operation. Although his aircraft was working correctly he fell victim to spacial disorientation most likely as a result of loosing outside visual reference. This disorientation resulted in him entering an unintentional right hand descending turn into the ocean. ALL of the available evidence indicates NOT an intentional maneuver that would result in the crash!

Finally- to put out some more fires before they start. He was not “hijacked” or forced to crash the airplane. Upon examination of the body- among other things- his thumbs were broken. This happens because when the aircraft hits the ground or water the pilot has his hands wrapped around the flight controls and as the airplane hits the ground the controls violently come backward, snapping the thumbs and occasionally the wrists. If he had been fighting someone off the controls this would not have happened!

The aircraft was not sabotaged because he had been airborne without incident for several minutes before hand and again there was no evidence of foul play.

To top it all off why would this all be staged so elaborately when if you really wanted to kill him all you would have to do is put a small amount of water in his gas tanks? This is a common known thing among anyone who knows much about small planes. The water can be made virtually undetectable, you wouldn't need much and it causes the engine to quit soon after take-off most of the time. This may not kill him because as I stated earlier you can still glide without an engine but in a congested area such as New Jersey he probably would not have made it down safely.

I hope I've answered a few more questions and uncovered a few more inaccuracies in that video. Thank you for reading this as I feel it's important to know all of the facts before you believe anything. I may not know all of them but I know more than that video's producer who, by the way, didn't even have the correct tail number of the aircraft in the video. You friend in the skies, Capt. Tenzing.