"Free" Healthcare: Our Founding Fathers' Opinions
DriftingByTheStorm
Posts: 8,684
All though i've noticed that a lot of the people on this board could give two shits what the great people who founded America thought about anything, i never the less though i would at least put these up here to demonstrate just how far away from the true American ideal the thought process in this country has regressed:
“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” -Thomas Jefferson
“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” - James Madison
“…[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.” -James Madison
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” -Benjamin Franklin
“A wise and frugal government … shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” -Thomas Jefferson
Keep on blindly believing in freedom by government decree and thus heradling the end of the republic.
:rolleyes:
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Jefferson
“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” -Thomas Jefferson
“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” - James Madison
“…[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.” -James Madison
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” -Benjamin Franklin
“A wise and frugal government … shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” -Thomas Jefferson
Keep on blindly believing in freedom by government decree and thus heradling the end of the republic.
:rolleyes:
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Jefferson
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
If I opened it now would you not understand?
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you therefore think that because said document is over 200 years old, we can just disgard it?
If you want to change its intention, shoudn't we at least be honest and modify it to fit our changing wants?
It is a LIVING document.
It is not DEAD.
So if you want to change it,
just man up and say, "i don't like it, lets change it"
but lets not ignore it.
And if you think the wisdom of our fathers is no longer wisdom, because it is 200 year old wisdom, well that is another problem.
Also, i was just waiting for the standard canned, "yeah but they had slaves" response. Just suprised it was the first and second i received.
Yup you know,
you're all right.
They had slaves.
It therefore negates the very foundation of our country's principles.
Oh well,
fuck it.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Well you wouldn't get an argument from me on that one either.
I'm sure the welfare mothers would disagree.
Along with all the bourgeoise who love just giving their kids a bowl of cereal before the big yellow bus comes to take their kid away for "free".
They also talked a WHOLE lot about how the constitution was meant for a MORAL people who believed in god and personal responsibility, and the idea of rights being assigned by a supreme creator, not by human legislation.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
from the federal government absolutely. I think the original idea was a protectorate national government with strong state governments giving the people the most direct influence over their governance... currently this is not the case.
If I remember correctly, the Articles of Confederation gave the states much more power than the national government. Eventually it resulted in a disjointed mess as states had different laws and regulations.
Yep.
That is why they wrote the constitution.
You should try reading The Federalist Papers sometime.
You'd better understand what the actual intent of the federal governmetn was meant to be.
It wasn't to dish out free welfare and subisdization.
It was meant for providing a fundamental commonality of law. It helps keep the members of the union from pissing off eachother and from pissing off foreign powers, by providing such commonality, and furthermore it was meant to provide for a common defense from invasion. Lastly it was intended to preserve the Union!
Beyond that, the scope of the federal government was intended to be VERY VERY VERY LIMITED.
The Federalist Papers
If I opened it now would you not understand?
and yes that's the potential, but that's the whole reason to have a federal government... to provide standards, to deal with interstate issues currency etc and to help everything run smooth, basically it's what made the constition necessary... Framework. The more power a national government has the people have less control over thier own personal governance.
The country was fairly new a the time of the AOC... there are always some problems anytime a new system is put in place.
I'm kind of with you on that. It opens an entire new set of problems... but I don't think largely we would be worse off that we are currently in many areas. Wait times suck already, people go to hospitals and doctors offices needlessly already, they over use 911 already...the quality one gets for the money is deplorable in some cases... marketers and insurance companies pretty much own the system.
And let's not forget that in those days, doctor's care could be traded for couple dozen eggs or fixing the doctor's wagon wheel.
People wouldn't have to sell their homes or farms to pay a doctor bills.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Yeah and had we actualy listened to what they put in our constitution for us, we would still have very affordable healthcare.
Unfortuantely we let the banks control the money supply, and now they have inflated the currency by untold multiples, causing the price of everything to increase exponentialy.
:cool:
If I opened it now would you not understand?
insurance companies are responsible for the false rise in health care prices its a pretend system..
make the insurance companies illegal and the working class will have health care.
otherwise people will continue to get super rich... and remember.. these people do not want change when they in their own..sick...tiwsted heads are living what they assume is the american dream.. but in actuality is just greed and they are still slaves.. money cant buy you out of that
Or maybe it is a combination of the facts that we have rampant inflation, a healthcare system that is one of the most disgustingly regulated systems in the country, and a government that is subsidizing an entire class of people with medicare and medicade and forcing the industry to shift the balance of the difference over to the honest man for payment.
Then you could add corporate manipulation at the bottom of that list if you wanted.
Maybe FarFromGlorified could clear some of that up.
Since he seems to be Free Market Guru.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
The aristocrat choir sings
"What's the ruckus?"
The haves have not a fucking clue
The immenseness of suffering
And the odd negotiation a rarity
With onionskin plausabilty of life
And a keyboard reaffirmation
The part you are missing is:
"I remember when you sang ... that song about today
But now its tomorrow ... and everything has changed."
Bottom line.
Promise one thing, and its all a bunch of bullshit.
The promise? "Free healthcare"
The reality? Enslaving taxes and a sytsem that violates the free market even worse than the current system. A crippling national debt that will mushroom beyond the current insanity and totally derail this country and throw it in to the fire to burn.
And i'm sure at that point they will have a new booige man to sell you.
And the people will swallow it, saying "yes master, may i have some more".
And they will get their way again, and we will get fucked again. And the people will be offered another "solution" and it will in turn fuck us again.
and again and again and again.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
free health care was a lost cause once they started opening walgreens with drive-thrus in them.
eat a banana, run a mile and shut the fuck up
huh?
I am staunchly opposed to universal health care tax.
?
If I opened it now would you not understand?
i wasnt directing that to you...just gigantic people whot ake way too any pills and thinks its a fashion statement
we don't need free health care,just AFFORDABLE health care.But when you live in a fascist country where the government is in bed with big business and big pharma and they get together and scheme up ways to rape you instead of help you....you get our present system!
the forefathers were light years ahead of our present "leaders" as far as intelligence is concerned.so while the constitution may be 200 years old we would be much better off if it was still observed and adhered to.
oh.and let's not forget that during the times of slavery there were BLACK tribes that enslaved and sold off other BLACK tribes.it wasn't all white guys doing dirt.
slavery was common place back then.not that it makes it right but you need to understand the times.
and is America perfect? no!! but it WAS the best dam country that there ever was.
I'm very sad to see it go and so should all of you.
Unfortunately government schools have taught and trained self-loathing white men for the past half century.
Whoa are we, the white men. Cursed are we.
How evil we have been.
I don't doubt that the white man is an evil fucker,
but taking it out on some of the best of the bunch is pretty sad.
:(
Whoa! Kill all the white men!
If I opened it now would you not understand?
yeah,this bleeding heart shit makes me sick.Like those idiots who tried to label the minutemen as racist for trying to keep illegal aliens out of this country!!
Yes!! Ban the insurance companies. I can't say that enough. They are the major cause of the problem.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
"Stuff White People Like"
#94 Free Healthcare
April 4, 2008 by clander
In spite of having access to the best health insurance and fanciest hospitals, white people are passionate about the idea of socialized medicine. So much so that they have memorized statistics and examples of how for-profit medicine has destroyed the United States.
But before you can exploit this information for personal gain, it’s important that you understand why white people are so in love with free health care.
The first and most obvious reason is “they have it Europe.” White people love all things European, this especially true of things that are unavailable in the United States (Rare Beers, Absinthe, legal marijuana, prostitution, soccer). The fact that it’s available in Canada isn’t really that impressive, but it does contribute to their willingness to threaten to move there.
These desires were only heightened in 2007 when Michael Moore released “Sicko,” a documentary that contrasts the health care industry in the United States with that of Canada, France and Cuba. As a general rule of thumb, white people are always extra passionate about issues that have been the subject of a Moore documentary. As a test, ask them about 9/11, Gun Control, or Health Care and then say “where did you get that information?” You will not be surprised at the results.
But the secret reason why all white people love socialized medicine is that they all love the idea of receiving health care without having a full-time job. This would allow them to work as a freelance designer/consultant/copywriter/photographer/blogger, open their own bookstore, stay at home with their kids, or be a part of an Internet start-up without having to worry about a benefits package. Though many of them would never follow this path, they appreciate having the option.
If you need to impress a white person, merely mention how you got hurt on a recent trip Canada/England/Sweden and though you were a foreigner you received excellent and free health care. They will be very impressed and likely tell you about how powerful drug and health care lobbies are destroying everything.
Though their passion for national health care runs deep, it is important to remember that white people are most in favor of it when they are healthy. They love the idea of everyone have equal access to the resources that will keep them alive, that is until they have to wait in line for an MRI.
This is very similar to the way that white people express their support for public schools when they don’t have children.
thanks for dragging this one back from the grave, fanchy.
The "they have it in Europe and it 'works'..." argument has alwasy bugged the everloving shit out of me.
Just like the people who argue that fiat money and the Fed are perfectly acceptable and 'good' because it "has worked so far" ... those who argue this reasoning for healthcare are likewise misinformed.
Fact - no country that has turned to fiat money has ever survived the ages. The modern governments of this world that run on fiat currency are only waiting for their turn to fall. The "prosperity" of these nations is perpetuated longer than it normaly would only by international institutions and arangements like the IMF and Worldbank which allow for the shell-game to take place across continents. The massive collective "debt" owed by the United States and it's future generations WILL one day wreak the havoc that these proponents have for decades ignored as an imaterial triviality.
Socialized medicine perpetuates the above mentioned system, and creates a condition where society collectively is forced to repay debts that the original debtor (the one who needs socialized medicine) could not themselves repay. Unfortunately the collective net of these obligations can NOT ultimately be met by society, repayment is impossible, and inflation becomes rampant.
Further, to understand that the debt is inextricably related to the very currency itself underscores the severity of the problem -- this is not just a "debt" that can or must be repaid! Everytime (or each year, or period) that the government is forced to pay out on claims for which it has no money, it is required to take on more debt and in congruence print more money.
When one understands this, they are forced to the realization that such debts, because of the system of fiat currency, are no longer simple obligations to future repayment ... rather they are actualy burdens encumbered by the issuance of new currency which can never be repaid. Of course, this is not entirely true, the currency itself can be extinguished by the collective repayment of debts by private entities to the banks themselves, however when this occurs it is what economists refer to as "deflation", and it is a force probably more destructive of personal wealth in aggregate than is inflation. The contraction of prices, currency, and investment values is precisely the peril facing our country today, and it is the underlying reason that the Fed continues to change policies to allow for the further issuance of currency at an increasingly rapid pace -- the contraction of debt\currency can NOT occur in a functioning economy without serious and dire economic consequences. Growth must be sustained and failue to continue this trajectory will ultimately lead to the destruction and downfall of the nation.
THIS is my primary and overwhelming concern with socialized medicine. Its perpetuation and acceleration of the system of inflation will be catastrophic to our national economy in the medium to long term.
:(
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Prostitution is legal over in Europe?
there are two sides to this coin, we also need to understand WHO the where refering too. If you understand the context in reference, the words aren't as true as you may read them today. The constitution was specifically written to ensure male white landowners remained in power in this new countries hierarchy. Woman, children, slaves were not a part of the group the freedoms were for.
As for 'general welfare', this could have meant that they didn't have these concerns, and didn't want to be responsible for providing for those of lesser importance. Kind of like now-a-days it seems.
I actually believe there words have become more important and encompassing now, then they actually were back then.
I find it hard to believe that that was there intent.
Stop by:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14678777351&ref=mf
it is in Germany, it's controlled though, they have to be registered, see doctors regularly and get tested. I'm sure they pay taxes on their take also.
Stop by:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14678777351&ref=mf