Katrina: Two years on...

darkcrowdarkcrow Posts: 1,102
edited September 2007 in A Moving Train
So two years on and, from what i have read in reports, little has been done. still a lot of devestation. still a lot of people living in trailers. anything positive going on??
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  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    darkcrow wrote:
    anything positive going on??
    Some.
    At the moment though, it escapes me.
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    RainDog wrote:
    Some.
    At the moment though, it escapes me.


    I was reading about it this morning, I know they have started work on levee reconstruction and are still about 3 years away from being.... back to pre Katrina standards... (obviously the wetlands need to come back and that takes time and really, honestly they should go to Cat 5 standards) and that's just the levees, I know the water system sucks too.

    I was wanting to ask you one, have they decided to fill up MRGO yet?

    Also did they ever decide on new building codes, they were squabbling on that when I left last year.

    If you know of any building projects going on I'm looking to make another trip over the winter. I'd like to build something this time.

    Wasn't there some kind of deadline or something they had put on removing those trailers?? It seems like there just isn't the man power to get a lot done right now.

    Cheers RD, keep your head up.
    P.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • darkcrow wrote:
    anything positive going on??

    Well, Canadaville is supposedly thriving. It was a village (50 residences) set up by a Canadian industrialist to help ease the burden on New Orleans residents after the flood. About 150 people there are mostly doing well.

    http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070828/canadaville_story_070828/20070828?hub=World
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    Pacomc79 wrote:
    I was reading about it this morning, I know they have started work on levee reconstruction and are still about 3 years away from being.... back to pre Katrina standards... (obviously the wetlands need to come back and that takes time and really, honestly they should go to Cat 5 standards) and that's just the levees, I know the water system sucks too.

    I was wanting to ask you one, have they decided to fill up MRGO yet?

    Also did they ever decide on new building codes, they were squabbling on that when I left last year.

    If you know of any building projects going on I'm looking to make another trip over the winter. I'd like to build something this time.

    Wasn't there some kind of deadline or something they had put on removing those trailers?? It seems like there just isn't the man power to get a lot done right now.

    Cheers RD, keep your head up.
    P.
    Those are good questions, man. And I'm rather disappointed in myself for not knowing the answers. I've been ignoring the local news lately - mostly for my own sanity. I think I've had enough time off, though, so I'm going to look into it.

    And cheers to you to, Pac!
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • someone tell me the govt actually wants to help these people... I'd like to hear someone try...


    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/08/29/new-orleans-paper-all-l_n_62323.html
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    New Orleans is a fifty year project. You can't do much until you fix the infrastructure and that alone is ten years worth of work with little tax revenue to fund it. It may sound harsh but you have to look at is New Orleans worth the money it would take to fix. Given what we know now it woul dbe engineering stupidity to rebuild New Orleans as big as it was. There's a reason building cities below the waterline hasn't caught on....it's just now a good idea. It's not a simple matter of throwing money at it.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • Posted this in AET...guess I should've looked here first. Anyway...

    Your thoughts? This was inspired by another thread, but I have a few comments. The Federal Government and FEMA and Bush could have done much, much more...this isn't debatable. But I blame just as much on Louisiana's horrible, horrible excuse for a state government. So much corrpution among the politicians here. It's very sad. First you had Jefferson, then Vitter a while ago. It's pathetic. Then the re-election of Nagin? Are you fucking kidding me? I'm outta here next Spring. It's a great city and the closest to being in Europe without ever going there with the culture and music and so forth, but really it's still quite a mess politically and the infrastructure still needs quite a bit of work. The crime rate is through the roof, and nothing is being done. On the other hand though, I highly suggest everyone come down for 3 days at the end of October for Voodoo Fest. Rage Against The Machine are my only hope now.
  • tybirdtybird Posts: 17,388
    someone tell me the govt actually wants to help these people... I'd like to hear someone try...


    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/08/29/new-orleans-paper-all-l_n_62323.html
    They over-purchased trailers. :rolleyes: I know this because I worked on a research project in a local National Forest this summer, and the Forest Service had been given three FEMA trailers to use in whatever manner they needed them. These were not the little white box trailers, these were pull-behind RV trailers with the expandable sides like you see at all the big camp sites. The professor that I was working with and I stayed in one while conducting research on site. It had a microwave oven, a stove, a frig, full bathroom, master bedroom, twin bunks....all the comforts of home.

    Basically, the help from the government was them pissing money down the hole after the fact. I would hate to think what they paid for those trailers. In other words, they are doing what the federal government has always done......throw money at a problem and expect it to get all better.
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • surferdude wrote:
    New Orleans is a fifty year project. You can't do much until you fix the infrastructure and that alone is ten years worth of work with little tax revenue to fund it. It may sound harsh but you have to look at is New Orleans worth the money it would take to fix. Given what we know now it woul dbe engineering stupidity to rebuild New Orleans as big as it was. There's a reason building cities below the waterline hasn't caught on....it's just now a good idea. It's not a simple matter of throwing money at it.


    So they have declared n.o. a disaster zone and everyone knows this and is staying on purpose despite knowing they will be living in a disaster zone for quite possibly the rest of their lives?

    May I'm confused or they are confused or both.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • tybird wrote:
    They over-purchased trailers. :rolleyes: I know this because I worked on a research project in a local National Forest this summer, and the Forest Service had been given three FEMA trailers to use in whatever manner they needed them. These were not the little white box trailers, these were pull-behind RV trailers with the expandable sides like you see at all the big camp sites. The professor that I was working with and I stayed in one while conducting research on site. It had a microwave oven, a stove, a frig, full bathroom, master bedroom, twin bunks....all the comforts of home.

    Basically, the help from the government was them pissing money down the hole after the fact. I would hate to think what they paid for those trailers. In other words, they are doing what the federal government has always done......throw money at a problem and expect it to get all better.

    Interesting. Those things are almost the price of a home... in and around the $250,000 range.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    So they have declared n.o. a disaster zone and everyone knows this and is staying on purpose despite knowing they will be living in a disaster zone for quite possibly the rest of their lives?
    Yes. Some people don't want to face the truth of the situation, or are facing the truth and want to be part of the rebuilding process, or a bit of both.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • surferdude wrote:
    Yes. Some people don't want to face the truth of the situation, or are facing the truth and want to be part of the rebuilding process, or a bit of both.


    Is that the official consensus or your hypothesis? I don't remember hearing about it in the news...probably the residents haven't either.. I'm guessing.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    surferdude wrote:
    New Orleans is a fifty year project. You can't do much until you fix the infrastructure and that alone is ten years worth of work with little tax revenue to fund it. It may sound harsh but you have to look at is New Orleans worth the money it would take to fix. Given what we know now it woul dbe engineering stupidity to rebuild New Orleans as big as it was. There's a reason building cities below the waterline hasn't caught on....it's just now a good idea. It's not a simple matter of throwing money at it.
    ...
    Forget about the City of New Orleans itself... what about the people who were and continue to be displaced?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    A new animation from Mark Fiore The Doctor Is In

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    Howabout that $50 Billion George wanted for the war?

    That couldn't hurt.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • Uncle LeoUncle Leo Posts: 1,059
    I know this is easy for me to say, since I have a marketable(ish) degree and can move pretty easily, plus my family is not all in NO, but I would tend to think that I would just leave and settle elsewhere. While I may feel some loyalty to my hometown, I would have to get on with life--and have life not be about recovery for the next, oh I don't know, decade.

    I have no idea whether this is what is happening--everyone with means getting out. I just think that I would. Start over in, for example, St. Loius or something.
    I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
  • Uncle Leo wrote:
    I know this is easy for me to say, since I have a marketable(ish) degree and can move pretty easily, plus my family is not all in NO, but I would tend to think that I would just leave and settle elsewhere. While I may feel some loyalty to my hometown, I would have to get on with life--and have life not be about recovery for the next, oh I don't know, decade.

    I have no idea whether this is what is happening--everyone with means getting out. I just think that I would. Start over in, for example, St. Loius or something.

    yeah..dump your house..all you have...for not a cent...

    easy as pie...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • darkcrowdarkcrow Posts: 1,102
    Uncle Leo wrote:
    I know this is easy for me to say, since I have a marketable(ish) degree and can move pretty easily, plus my family is not all in NO, but I would tend to think that I would just leave and settle elsewhere. While I may feel some loyalty to my hometown, I would have to get on with life--and have life not be about recovery for the next, oh I don't know, decade.

    I have no idea whether this is what is happening--everyone with means getting out. I just think that I would. Start over in, for example, St. Loius or something.
    i guess some people could do that, but a lot of people have roots in the city that go back generations. people have communities with strong ties. just to up sticks and go to a strange place, even if its in your own state/country, can be very hard.
  • Hey...New Orleans...America says fuck you....deal with it...


    chumps...

    hurricane bitches..

    you lost...haha

    ?!??!?!

    am I wrong?
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    Uncle Leo wrote:
    I know this is easy for me to say, since I have a marketable(ish) degree and can move pretty easily, plus my family is not all in NO, but I would tend to think that I would just leave and settle elsewhere. While I may feel some loyalty to my hometown, I would have to get on with life--and have life not be about recovery for the next, oh I don't know, decade.

    I have no idea whether this is what is happening--everyone with means getting out. I just think that I would. Start over in, for example, St. Loius or something.
    I'm a transplant from the North - so for me, it's not because my family is here, or because I love my job, or because I have roots, so to speak. I'm here because I love this town. It's why I moved here, and it's why I'm staying. My only problem at the moment is with myself - I should be doing more for the recovery.

    One of the things about living here right now, especially in my neck of the woods, is that it's gotten real easy to pretend nothing happened. Walk out on to St. Charles? Well, the streetcar isn't running, but everything looks fine. Bus to work downtown, and - at least around my office - things look much as they did before the storm. Head to the French Quarter for a few drinks, talk to tourists and bartenders, and it doesn't seem that much different. Hell, with the French Quarter, I could say it's a lot cleaner. Extend myself beyond my usual circle? Makes me want to cry.
  • darkcrowdarkcrow Posts: 1,102
    are there any plans to redesign the city? As in builing an intergrating public transport system, better town planning etc?
  • In a way, NO has been living on borrowed time - I think most people know that sooner or later it was going to get hit with a major and devastating storm. The gov't, both state and fed. havre known about the possible dangers for decades and have implemented band-aid solutions in the hope that that storm will never come. They were hedging their bets. Well, Katrina was THAT storm.
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    Hey...New Orleans...America says fuck you....deal with it...


    chumps...

    hurricane bitches..

    you lost...haha

    ?!??!?!

    am I wrong?


    Yeah I think you are wrong, there are thousands of people who are working every day trying to clean that place up, it's just amazingly vast. People care, all of us here care obviously, there are just a lot of problems and some of which are age old issues coming to roost. It needs Cat 5 standards to be a city that large in that area. Most of the old town is on the high ground, much of the suburbs and neighborhoods are in the low lands, As of today it's going to take until 2010 to rebuild the levee system to pre Katrina/Rita standards (hopefully right this time) and those weren't quite adequate for a hurricane hitting the city. It's miserable to see the devistation especially for people working thier butt off to get thier homes back in neighborhoods that still have so much work to do but at this poing money is committed, it's not really money at this point it's man power and the politicial leadership locally throught nationally obviously ain't great.
    It's pretty easy to take shots at everyone and say look no one cares, but I don't think that's the case at all, the governments on various levels are trying, and the Army Corps of Engineers has been working for 2 years but they have to get infrastructure done and dusted before it's really worth sinking more money into the other stuff. It makes more sense to do what the guy in Truthmongers article did, set up shop, let people live rent free as long as they work or are in school let them build thier skills up and then if they want to make a come back do that.

    It's heartbreaking to be in the city right now, but it's easy to see the beauty and the appeal of Gentilly and Lakeview underneath the rubble. I don't think it will completely ever come back but in 5 to 10 years people will come back and it will be a lot better. Disasters take time to heal no matter how much money you throw at it. At this point I think physical labor is better than money to send, at the same time, if you care about them go visit. They still have a beautiful town even scarred, they still have some of the best food in the world, and it's still an awesome place to visit and your money will directly help the economy. Americorps and Habitat are all over, I was at Fish Camp with Presbyterian Disaster Assistance in Luling where we worked out of so there are places to go and stay if you would like to work too. They told us it would feel like we weren't making a dent but someones go to do the work and it energizes the locals to see you out there doing work, not to mention they are cool folks and have thier own stories. It takes a team of about 12 people around a week to fully strip a house down to where it can be remediated by borax soda and clorox to be ready to build, then you have to wait on a contractor. There are around 500,000 houses that need to be mucked out so you can see it's a lot of work, just to get that done before any mass building can go on, but people do care, and people are helping it's just a slow process.

    The Government will have to redo the water and sewer systems, pumps have to work automatically and be much more efficient than they are now, levees need to be up to cat 5 standards and built to withstand extreme flood pressure levels. MRGO should be filled, 9th Ward should be condemned and turned into a city park, neighborhoods and projects should never have been built in such a dangerous flood area. Wetlands projects to restore the natural storm surge swallowing wetlands have to be begun in earnest. City planning commissions need to ensure all new construction is ready for a 12-15 foot flood..and that's just the physical city part, obviously the people need a little help too.

    I have ties to the low country of South Carolina and that culture, I'd never want to see it die because of a hurricane, likewise the city of New Orleans which has such a rich culture and heritage. We all care.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    Is that the official consensus or your hypothesis? I don't remember hearing about it in the news...probably the residents haven't either.. I'm guessing.
    How long do you think it takes to re-build a city for millions? How long do you expect a person who worked at a plant that was destroyed and is not being rebuilt to stick around?

    As much as I love where I live if my home and work places were wiped out I would move immediately.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Forget about the City of New Orleans itself... what about the people who were and continue to be displaced?
    This is where it's much harder and I don't think there are solutions to satisfy everyone. I think guidelines need to be set up and social workers be given free reign to work within those guidelines. There are so many variables.

    The number one question everyone is tip toeing around is: Is it humane to rebuild the lower sections of town?
    I've yet to see anyone address this question head on. NO cannot move on until this question is addressed.

    What do you do with the elderly who have never lived anywhere but NO and have no home now and no family?
    What do you do with people who have moved and started a new life but still own property?
    What do you do with people who have nothing but refuse to move where they can start a new life?
    Is it humane to rebuild the lower sections of town?

    This is why I think it's a 50 year process to rebuild NO. There's a generation of people that have to live there lives before NO is back in anyway near to what it was.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • surferdude wrote:
    How long do you think it takes to re-build a city for millions? How long do you expect a person who worked at a plant that was destroyed and is not being rebuilt to stick around?

    As much as I love where I live if my home and work places were wiped out I would move immediately.

    That depends entirely on how many people are involved in the operation.

    Construction crews build and repair things at miraculous speed these days.

    Especially in America.

    The consensus seems to be not enough effort is being made. Are you saying there is....but somehow it's just different?
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • Pacomc79 wrote:
    Yeah I think you are wrong, there are thousands of people who are working every day trying to clean that place up, it's just amazingly vast. People care, all of us here care obviously, there are just a lot of problems and some of which are age old issues coming to roost. It needs Cat 5 standards to be a city that large in that area. Most of the old town is on the high ground, much of the suburbs and neighborhoods are in the low lands, As of today it's going to take until 2010 to rebuild the levee system to pre Katrina/Rita standards (hopefully right this time) and those weren't quite adequate for a hurricane hitting the city. It's miserable to see the devistation especially for people working thier butt off to get thier homes back in neighborhoods that still have so much work to do but at this poing money is committed, it's not really money at this point it's man power and the politicial leadership locally throught nationally obviously ain't great.
    It's pretty easy to take shots at everyone and say look no one cares, but I don't think that's the case at all, the governments on various levels are trying, and the Army Corps of Engineers has been working for 2 years but they have to get infrastructure done and dusted before it's really worth sinking more money into the other stuff. It makes more sense to do what the guy in Truthmongers article did, set up shop, let people live rent free as long as they work or are in school let them build thier skills up and then if they want to make a come back do that.

    It's heartbreaking to be in the city right now, but it's easy to see the beauty and the appeal of Gentilly and Lakeview underneath the rubble. I don't think it will completely ever come back but in 5 to 10 years people will come back and it will be a lot better. Disasters take time to heal no matter how much money you throw at it. At this point I think physical labor is better than money to send, at the same time, if you care about them go visit. They still have a beautiful town even scarred, they still have some of the best food in the world, and it's still an awesome place to visit and your money will directly help the economy. Americorps and Habitat are all over, I was at Fish Camp with Presbyterian Disaster Assistance in Luling where we worked out of so there are places to go and stay if you would like to work too. They told us it would feel like we weren't making a dent but someones go to do the work and it energizes the locals to see you out there doing work, not to mention they are cool folks and have thier own stories. It takes a team of about 12 people around a week to fully strip a house down to where it can be remediated by borax soda and clorox to be ready to build, then you have to wait on a contractor. There are around 500,000 houses that need to be mucked out so you can see it's a lot of work, just to get that done before any mass building can go on, but people do care, and people are helping it's just a slow process.

    The Government will have to redo the water and sewer systems, pumps have to work automatically and be much more efficient than they are now, levees need to be up to cat 5 standards and built to withstand extreme flood pressure levels. MRGO should be filled, 9th Ward should be condemned and turned into a city park, neighborhoods and projects should never have been built in such a dangerous flood area. Wetlands projects to restore the natural storm surge swallowing wetlands have to be begun in earnest. City planning commissions need to ensure all new construction is ready for a 12-15 foot flood..and that's just the physical city part, obviously the people need a little help too.

    I have ties to the low country of South Carolina and that culture, I'd never want to see it die because of a hurricane, likewise the city of New Orleans which has such a rich culture and heritage. We all care.

    It would seem the place is inhabitable then.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • Construction crews build and repair things at miraculous speed these days.

    This is true. Remember when LA had the earthquake ? They rebuilt significant portions of the highway infrastructure in 6 weeks. (6 weeks !!). Hmm, was there a conscious gov't effort in LA that is lacking in NO ??
  • RainDog wrote:
    One of the things about living here right now, especially in my neck of the woods, is that it's gotten real easy to pretend nothing happened. Walk out on to St. Charles? Well, the streetcar isn't running, but everything looks fine. Bus to work downtown, and - at least around my office - things look much as they did before the storm. Head to the French Quarter for a few drinks, talk to tourists and bartenders, and it doesn't seem that much different. Hell, with the French Quarter, I could say it's a lot cleaner. Extend myself beyond my usual circle? Makes me want to cry.


    Exactly. I live Uptown and work in the Quarter. I don't really travel outside that area because this is where the city is normal. Anywhere else and it's still August 30, 2005.
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