Actually I think it's quite appropriate. Hamas and Hezbullah and Iran are all about genocide. And guess who they'd like to kill. The Jews. That's strange, isn't that who the Nazis were after also? Like I said, quite appropriate.
hamas, now they are in political power, are more interested in a 2 state solution. they know thats the only viable option. iran... actually before the new president came in there was a strong movement for democratic change. dont think iran wants a genoncide just becuase a crazy president says a load of shit. he actually has very little power. he is just a mouth piece. hezbullah are more interested in securing lebenons borders than anything else.
hamas, now they are in political power, are more interested in a 2 state solution. they know thats the only viable option. iran... actually before the new president came in there was a strong movement for democratic change. dont think iran wants a genoncide just becuase a crazy president says a load of shit. he actually has very little power. he is just a mouth piece. hezbullah are more interested in securing lebenons borders than anything else.
I don't know ... I don't think Iran is harmless, particularly. They are jointly responsible for Hizbollah's lethality.
hamas, now they are in political power, are more interested in a 2 state solution. they know thats the only viable option. iran... actually before the new president came in there was a strong movement for democratic change. dont think iran wants a genoncide just becuase a crazy president says a load of shit. he actually has very little power. he is just a mouth piece. hezbullah are more interested in securing lebenons borders than anything else.
I had a feeling you'd say something like that. Go look at Hamas's charter. They haven't changed it since they got into the government, and they still refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist. If they were really interested in a two state solution they would have made something productive out of Israel's withdrawl from Gaza and shown that the Palestinians are capable of building a viable and peaceful state. That would of encouraged Israel to go forward with its plan to pull out of most of the West Bank. They also would have recognized Israel. A two state solution involves two states after all. Instead they refuse to discuss recognition of Israel and have spent their time lobbing rockets at Israel and kidnapping Israeli soldiers. If Hezbullah were interested in securing Lebanon's borders then why did they provoke Israel knowing that it would invite a massive retaliation? Your reasoning simply doesn't make sense.
I had a feeling you'd say something like that. Go look at Hamas's charter. They haven't changed it since they got into the government, and they still refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist. If they were really interested in a two state solution they would have made something productive out of Israel's withdrawl from Gaza and shown that the Palestinians are capable of building a viable and peaceful state. That would of encouraged Israel to go forward with its plan to pull out of most of the West Bank. They also would have recognized Israel. A two state solution involves two states after all. Instead they refuse to discuss recognition of Israel and have spent their time lobbing rockets at Israel and kidnapping Israeli soldiers. If Hezbullah were interested in securing Lebanon's borders then why did they provoke Israel knowing that it would invite a massive retaliation? Your reasoning simply doesn't make sense.
its a two way street. as soon as hamas was elected the west and israel broke off all relaetions. the usa wanted democracy and when they didnt like the results they bitch. before innocent children were murdered on the beach by israeli fire hamas were in negotiations to recognise israel. hamas were more interested in getting rid of the corrupt system that the PLO had resided over, and actually help the palastinians. but of course israel doesnt want that and has so far held back all taxes so that real progress cannot be made. they also go for a massive land grab and build an illegal wall on palastinian land.
Racism
November 10, 1975 the United Nations General Assembly adopted, by a vote of 72 to 35 (with 32 abstentions), its Resolution 3379[1], which states as its conclusion:
Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.
The resolution also endorsed an August 1975 statement by the Conference of Ministers for Foreign Affairs of Non-Aligned Countries (Lima, Peru), that: ...severely condemned Zionism as a threat to world peace and security and called upon all countries to oppose this racist and imperalist ideology.[2]
The Wall
Israel's goal in building the wall appears threefold; one, confiscation of land and water for future expansion of the West Bank colonisation, two, unilaterally redraw geopolitical borders, and three, encourage the exodus of Palestinians by denying them the ability to earn a living from their land.[3]
Israel continues to deny the Palestinian people adequate water resources and restrict their movements to to such an extent as to make living in their village an unviable option.
The World Court in the Hague in July 2004 announced it's verdict that the wall is illegal and must go. A victory for the Palestinians, but the decision will most likely be ignored by Israel.[4]
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
its a two way street. as soon as hamas was elected the west and israel broke off all relaetions. the usa wanted democracy and when they didnt like the results they bitch. before innocent children were murdered on the beach by israeli fire hamas were in negotiations to recognise israel. hamas were more interested in getting rid of the corrupt system that the PLO had resided over, and actually help the palastinians. but of course israel doesnt want that and has so far held back all taxes so that real progress cannot be made. they also go for a massive land grab and build an illegal wall on palastinian land.
whoa there...being democratically elected doesn't equal everybody has to treat you a certain way. Israel and the USA have recognized Hamas as a terrorist organization, and for good reason. They are holding the Palestinians responsible for the decisions they have made. It is not that the US and Israel don't recognize that Hamas was democratically elected. They do recognize this. They have chosen to treat the Hamas government a certain way based on the policies that Hamas espouses. The deaths on the beach are contested, and it is not at all clear who is responsible for the explosions there (full disclosure I'm convinced it wasn't an Israeli shell). I don't know why you say that Hamas was in negotiations to recognize Israel. They have explicitly refused to do just that. The fence is a whole other issue. Suffice it to say it is not illegal, and it is not Palestinian land. It is contested land. That is the whole point of this conflict.
Racism
November 10, 1975 the United Nations General Assembly adopted, by a vote of 72 to 35 (with 32 abstentions), its Resolution 3379[1], which states as its conclusion:
Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.
The resolution also endorsed an August 1975 statement by the Conference of Ministers for Foreign Affairs of Non-Aligned Countries (Lima, Peru), that: ...severely condemned Zionism as a threat to world peace and security and called upon all countries to oppose this racist and imperalist ideology.[2]
The Wall
Israel's goal in building the wall appears threefold; one, confiscation of land and water for future expansion of the West Bank colonisation, two, unilaterally redraw geopolitical borders, and three, encourage the exodus of Palestinians by denying them the ability to earn a living from their land.[3]
Israel continues to deny the Palestinian people adequate water resources and restrict their movements to to such an extent as to make living in their village an unviable option.
The World Court in the Hague in July 2004 announced it's verdict that the wall is illegal and must go. A victory for the Palestinians, but the decision will most likely be ignored by Israel.[4]
The resolution labeling Zionism as racism is one of the greatest abominations to ever come out of the UN. It is the repudiation, based on a double standard, of a nation's right to self-determination. Note also the Cold War nature of the resolution. It was adopted because of the power of the Soviet bloc and the Arab bloc. This is clear from looking at the list of those that voted in favor. Note that virtually every Western country, where the problems of racism and bigotry are actually taken seriously, or are at least acknowledged, voted against.
With regards to the fence (it is actually only a wall in a very small portion of its total length) the Israeli supreme court has mandated that the route of the fence be based solely on security needs. Where they have deemed that the route reflected political and not security concerns they have forced the government to alter the route. The supreme court also attempts to weigh Israel's security needs as against Palestinian rights and have ruled multiple times in the Palestinian's favor. I know this because these decisions have been published, and I had a conversation not more than five hours ago on this topic with a former Israeli supreme court justice. As regards the Hague decision: the decision never once mentioned terrorism and Israel's security needs which are the very reasons for the fence's construction. It therefore seems that the decision was unfair. The Israeli supreme court offered its own decision, upon which its subsequent rulings have been based, which stated that the fence was legal with regards to international law so long as its route was determined by security needs alone. Hence the courts rulings forcing alterations in the route.
its a two way street. as soon as hamas was elected the west and israel broke off all relaetions. the usa wanted democracy and when they didnt like the results they bitch. before innocent children were murdered on the beach by israeli fire hamas were in negotiations to recognise israel. hamas were more interested in getting rid of the corrupt system that the PLO had resided over, and actually help the palastinians. but of course israel doesnt want that and has so far held back all taxes so that real progress cannot be made. they also go for a massive land grab and build an illegal wall on palastinian land.
1. Hamas is a terror organization.
2. It used an old system many terror groups had used before - win the public trust by providing them social services & support in order to get to the parlament.
3. Once they got where they wanted, they stoped helping their civilians. Instead, they prefered smuggling weapons & buying weapons.
4. The Israeli govt and the rest of the world paniced when Hamas, a terror organization who doesn't believe in Israel's right to exsit won the elections, so naturally they stoped giving money to the PLO.
5. Palestinians went into some humanitarian crisis, Hamas reacted by smuggling weapons & money for buying weapons.The next step was to fire at Israeli town of Sderot and ruin every chance they had for Israel to take them seriously and continue with the rest of the withdrawals.
6. For dessert, Hamas planed and executed the killing & kidnapping of Israeli soliders within an Israeli territory, which is a supervision point called Kerem Shalom & part of an agreement between Israel & the PLO.
7. Israel had to return to Gaza.
Yep, Hamas really cares about his civilians interests. Right.
The only mistake we had is to panic and not wanting to finance and talk to a terror organization who believes Israel should be wiped off the map. One can expect us to behave that way in the beginning, don't you think? Well, Hamas didn't, that's why they also never really tried to negotiate with us.
Oh and - its not a wall, its a 95% fence, 5% concrete. We had to build it in order to reduce the number of suicide bombers getthing into Israel. It worked.
The resolution labeling Zionism as racism is one of the greatest abominations to ever come out of the UN. It is the repudiation, based on a double standard, of a nation's right to self-determination. Note also the Cold War nature of the resolution. It was adopted because of the power of the Soviet bloc and the Arab bloc. This is clear from looking at the list of those that voted in favor. Note that virtually every Western country, where the problems of racism and bigotry are actually taken seriously, or are at least acknowledged, voted against.
With regards to the fence (it is actually only a wall in a very small portion of its total length) the Israeli supreme court has mandated that the route of the fence be based solely on security needs. Where they have deemed that the route reflected political and not security concerns they have forced the government to alter the route. The supreme court also attempts to weigh Israel's security needs as against Palestinian rights and have ruled multiple times in the Palestinian's favor. I know this because these decisions have been published, and I had a conversation not more than five hours ago on this topic with a former Israeli supreme court justice. As regards the Hague decision: the decision never once mentioned terrorism and Israel's security needs which are the very reasons for the fence's construction. It therefore seems that the decision was unfair. The Israeli supreme court offered its own decision, upon which its subsequent rulings have been based, which stated that the fence was legal with regards to international law so long as its route was determined by security needs alone. Hence the courts rulings forcing alterations in the route.
Wouldn't a wall on Israeli land be just as secure?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
2. It used an old system many terror groups had used before - win the public trust by providing them social services & support in order to get to the parlament.
3. Once they got where they wanted, they stoped helping their civilians. Instead, they prefered smuggling weapons & buying weapons.
4. The Israeli govt and the rest of the world paniced when Hamas, a terror organization who doesn't believe in Israel's right to exsit won the elections, so naturally they stoped giving money to the PLO.
5. Palestinians went into some humanitarian crisis, Hamas reacted by smuggling weapons & money for buying weapons.The next step was to fire at Israeli town of Sderot and ruin every chance they had for Israel to take them seriously and continue with the rest of the withdrawals.
6. For dessert, Hamas planed and executed the killing & kidnapping of Israeli soliders within an Israeli territory, which is a supervision point called Kerem Shalom & part of an agreement between Israel & the PLO.
7. Israel had to return to Gaza.
Yep, Hamas really cares about his civilians interests. Right.
The only mistake we had is to panic and not wanting to finance and talk to a terror organization who believes Israel should be wiped off the map. One can expect us to behave that way in the beginning, don't you think? Well, Hamas didn't, that's why they also never really tried to negotiate with us.
Oh and - its not a wall, its a 95% fence, 5% concrete. We had to build it in order to reduce the number of suicide bombers getthing into Israel. It worked.
This has been going on for half a century. When is Israel going to realize retaliation doesn't fix anything. It's too bad the Jews didn't recognize Christ as the messiah, he had some good things to teach about making peace.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
497 Lebanese civilians and about 400 Hezbullah terrorists have been killed since the fighting started. How exactly does that come out to 90 civilians for every 1 terrorist killed?
A US general was being intervied on NPR and he was pointing out an IDF attack where that happened...in one of the bombings 90 civilians were killed and 1 terrorist. I'm glad you're satisified with your numbers; it's always good when you kill more civilians than terrorists; very humane.
Wouldn't a wall on Israeli land be just as secure?
A wall that follows exactly the 1967 boundary would by definition exclude huge populations of settlers in the West Bank. Whatever your opinion of the settlers you have to understand that they are still citizens of Israel, and therefore there security is Israel's responsibility. Israel has therefore attempted to extend the fences protection to as many settlers as it can.
A US general was being intervied on NPR and he was pointing out an IDF attack where that happened...in one of the bombings 90 civilians were killed and 1 terrorist. I'm glad you're satisified with your numbers; it's always good when you kill more civilians than terrorists; very humane.
There hasn't been one bombing that killed 90 civilians. The largest single civilian death toll in one attack I believe was 28. Perhaps the general meant a wave of bombings, although I still don't think that would be accurate. Or perhaps the general was just wrong. After all he is an American general in America. No reason to think he has a better idea of what Israel has hit and who Israel has killed than Israel does. I'm not satisfied with my numbers. I wish we had killed no civilians and hundreds more terrorists. I do, however, recognize that war is tragic, especially war fought amongst a civilian population. It wasn't Israel's choice to fight in these conditions, but it will do so if it must.
A wall that follows exactly the 1967 boundary would by definition exclude huge populations of settlers in the West Bank. Whatever your opinion of the settlers you have to understand that they are still citizens of Israel, and therefore there security is Israel's responsibility. Israel has therefore attempted to extend the fences protection to as many settlers as it can.
Oh I see, so build an illegal wall to protect illegal settlers and ultimately gain ownership of the land. Why not withdraw the settlers?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
There hasn't been one bombing that killed 90 civilians. The largest single civilian death toll in one attack I believe was 28. Perhaps the general meant a wave of bombings, although I still don't think that would be accurate. Or perhaps the general was just wrong. After all he is an American general in America. No reason to think he has a better idea of what Israel has hit and who Israel has killed than Israel does. I'm not satisfied with my numbers. I wish we had killed no civilians and hundreds more terrorists. I do, however, recognize that war is tragic, especially war fought amongst a civilian population. It wasn't Israel's choice to fight in these conditions, but it will do so if it must.
Its a war that you will never win...your going to create more hatred and negative feelings towards Israel...just cannot believe people cannot see that is going to be case.....and it would be nice if you could just kill the bady guy...but what is the ratio of civilian deaths to bad guy deaths.....?
A world without Israel would probably be a better place. They're right in the middle of too much shite. I look at it like this...if a few countries had a beef with Israel, I'd think it was just sour grapes on the part of those countries...but we're talking about the entire middle east and most of Pakistan. That suggests to me that the problem goes deepr that Israel being a lamb. When 20% of the entire land mass of Earth has a problem with you, it's probably you.
A world without Israel would probably be a better place. They're right in the middle of too much shite. I look at it like this...if a few countries had a beef with Israel, I'd think it was just sour grapes on the part of those countries...but we're talking about the entire middle east and most of Pakistan. That suggests to me that the problem goes deepr that Israel being a lamb. When 20% of the entire land mass of Earth has a problem with you, it's probably you.
This has been going on for half a century. When is Israel going to realize retaliation doesn't fix anything. It's too bad the Jews didn't recognize Christ as the messiah, he had some good things to teach about making peace.
Probably when Hamas stop with its violence. We moved out of gaza, we were planning to continue with the rest of the withdrawals cause the PLO finaly mannaged to control most the violence, but Hamas had other plans - shooting towards Israeli town of Sderot ever since it got elected.
Israel's mistake = we got paniced in the begining for a good reason.
Hamas mistake = shooting at Israeli civilians in Sderot for no reason.
And please, spare me this spiritual crap, Christ and his believers were involved (in a bad way) in almost every catastrophe in the world. Leave religion out of this, nowdays it becomes the most irrelevant thing regarding this conflict. For someone who claim to have a research about the whole story your words seem to be quite ignorant.
A world without Israel would probably be a better place. They're right in the middle of too much shite. I look at it like this...if a few countries had a beef with Israel, I'd think it was just sour grapes on the part of those countries...but we're talking about the entire middle east and most of Pakistan. That suggests to me that the problem goes deepr that Israel being a lamb. When 20% of the entire land mass of Earth has a problem with you, it's probably you.
There's really nothing to say to this stunning bit of lunacy except you are an ignorant moron who knows nothing about history.
Israel was attacked by multiple Arab countries in 1948, 1967, and 1973 merely for existing. Yes, many people in the world don't like Jews. Apparently you would agree with the solution that Hitler came up with when people don't like Jews, just kill them all.
Some of the views expressed in these threads about Israel are absolutely scary because it's hard to imagine so many people are not only uninformed, but also so incapable of using proper grammar, spelling, or making anything approaching a coherent argument.
Seriously, spend some time away from internet message boards and seek out an education. It will do you a lot of good.
Its a war that you will never win...your going to create more hatred and negative feelings towards Israel...just cannot believe people cannot see that is going to be case.....and it would be nice if you could just kill the bady guy...but what is the ratio of civilian deaths to bad guy deaths.....?
Its already the case, and as long as the world refuses to send well trained Int forces to Southern Lebanon in order to protect Israeli & Lebanese civilians from Hizbullah violence, someone has to protect me, and that's the IDF. As soon as the world would step in (like it should had done 6 years ago), the IDF will step out. However, for some reason the world is in no hurry, and in the mean time more civilians are dying, more civilians have no home to return to, more civilians become prisoners in their own home, more animals & nature reserves are being destroted, and too many people including me don't know whether they'll still be alive tomorrow.
There are no winners in war, only losers, but instead of helping the "losers" (=civilians) you are too busy with finding someone to blame based on some irrelevant historical facts & "facts". Wow, bravo to you all, can you hear my applause all the way from the shelter?
Oh I see, so build an illegal wall to protect illegal settlers and ultimately gain ownership of the land. Why not withdraw the settlers?
As I've said the fence is not illegal so long as its route is determined by security needs. Israel would like to gain ownership of some of the land, but this is not an illegal aspiration. UN resolution states that Israel must withdraw from "territories" it conquered, but not from all the territories it conquered. The framers of that resolution have said explicitly that the wording was made that way in recognition of Israel's right to adjust the border so as to improve their security. As for withdrawing the settlers, Israel was planning on pulling out of most of the west bank except for the settlements that protect the approaches to Jerusalem and those that are just over the green line. Those plans are now on hold because the violence that emanated from Gaza after the Israeli withdrawl from there a year ago has made Israel wary of repeating the process in the West Bank.
Its a war that you will never win...your going to create more hatred and negative feelings towards Israel...just cannot believe people cannot see that is going to be case.....and it would be nice if you could just kill the bady guy...but what is the ratio of civilian deaths to bad guy deaths.....?
You're right that Israel's actions will produce hatred for Israel in the Arab world. But Israel cannot afford to do nothing in the face of attacks on its civilians. That is exactly the tactical thinking of Hezbollah. They attack Israel, which makes them popular in the Arab street. Israel has to respond with force, but in doing so Hezbollah ensures that many civilians will be killed by situating themselves in the heart of civilian populations. These deaths further strengthen Hezbollah and hurt Israel's image. So yes, Israel cannot destroy Hezbollah, but they cannot allow Hezbollah to attack Israel with impunity. It's a catch 22.
A world without Israel would probably be a better place. They're right in the middle of too much shite. I look at it like this...if a few countries had a beef with Israel, I'd think it was just sour grapes on the part of those countries...but we're talking about the entire middle east and most of Pakistan. That suggests to me that the problem goes deepr that Israel being a lamb. When 20% of the entire land mass of Earth has a problem with you, it's probably you.
That's a load of crap. I'm not even going to get into.
There's really nothing to say to this stunning bit of lunacy except you are an ignorant moron who knows nothing about history.
Israel was attacked by multiple Arab countries in 1948, 1967, and 1973 merely for existing. Yes, many people in the world don't like Jews. Apparently you would agree with the solution that Hitler came up with when people don't like Jews, just kill them all.
Some of the views expressed in these threads about Israel are absolutely scary because it's hard to imagine so many people are not only uninformed, but also so incapable of using proper grammar, spelling, or making anything approaching a coherent argument.
Seriously, spend some time away from internet message boards and seek out an education. It will do you a lot of good.
You're right that Israel's actions will produce hatred for Israel in the Arab world. But Israel cannot afford to do nothing in the face of attacks on its civilians. That is exactly the tactical thinking of Hezbollah. They attack Israel, which makes them popular in the Arab street. Israel has to respond with force, but in doing so Hezbollah ensures that many civilians will be killed by situating themselves in the heart of civilian populations. These deaths further strengthen Hezbollah and hurt Israel's image. So yes, Israel cannot destroy Hezbollah, but they cannot allow Hezbollah to attack Israel with impunity. It's a catch 22.
Human Rights Watch said they did an on the ground investigation of all the accusations that Hizbullah uses civilian shields and they were all false. They don't doubt that it happens from time to time, but it's clearly not Hizbullah's stratagy.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
There's really nothing to say to this stunning bit of lunacy except you are an ignorant moron who knows nothing about history.
Israel was attacked by multiple Arab countries in 1948, 1967, and 1973 merely for existing. Yes, many people in the world don't like Jews. Apparently you would agree with the solution that Hitler came up with when people don't like Jews, just kill them all.
Some of the views expressed in these threads about Israel are absolutely scary because it's hard to imagine so many people are not only uninformed, but also so incapable of using proper grammar, spelling, or making anything approaching a coherent argument.
Seriously, spend some time away from internet message boards and seek out an education. It will do you a lot of good.
My solution would not have been to displace tens of thousands of arabs just to appease the Jews. I'm sorry that we disagree, but I'm not the one making the personal attacks here. that's you. Perhaps I hit a nerve? I'm well aware of the history. Palestinians have as much of a "right" to exist as Israel does. It's called Darwinism...survival of the most fit. Had Israel not been propped up after WWII, they would not have survived.
Today, the people of Darfour are being slaughtered, and no one does anything, because Israel STILL can't handle their own business without constant propping up from America and the UN. So go ahead, call me an ignorant moron some more. You're probably just another whiny-assed Jew who can't wipe their own nose without the help of a real nation...a nation that was fought for and won by its own people, not a gimmie after WWII because everyone felt sorry for you.
I don't have much sympathy for anyone in that region, but least of all Israel. The people of Darfour have real problems...the same kinds of problems the Jews had 60 years ago, but nobody cares. Even if we did, we probably couldn't do anything because Israel can't wipe its own ass, much less fight off Hezbollah and Hamas...those organizations aren't even real armies. Israel has this big army...armed to the teeth, and they can't even put down a few thousand bad guys.
Hitler was a bad guy, but that was 60 years ago. Sooner or later, the Jews have to stop crying about that too. Life goes on.
Comments
hamas, now they are in political power, are more interested in a 2 state solution. they know thats the only viable option. iran... actually before the new president came in there was a strong movement for democratic change. dont think iran wants a genoncide just becuase a crazy president says a load of shit. he actually has very little power. he is just a mouth piece. hezbullah are more interested in securing lebenons borders than anything else.
http://www.myspace.com/thelastreel http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=19604327965
I don't know ... I don't think Iran is harmless, particularly. They are jointly responsible for Hizbollah's lethality.
I had a feeling you'd say something like that. Go look at Hamas's charter. They haven't changed it since they got into the government, and they still refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist. If they were really interested in a two state solution they would have made something productive out of Israel's withdrawl from Gaza and shown that the Palestinians are capable of building a viable and peaceful state. That would of encouraged Israel to go forward with its plan to pull out of most of the West Bank. They also would have recognized Israel. A two state solution involves two states after all. Instead they refuse to discuss recognition of Israel and have spent their time lobbing rockets at Israel and kidnapping Israeli soldiers. If Hezbullah were interested in securing Lebanon's borders then why did they provoke Israel knowing that it would invite a massive retaliation? Your reasoning simply doesn't make sense.
its a two way street. as soon as hamas was elected the west and israel broke off all relaetions. the usa wanted democracy and when they didnt like the results they bitch. before innocent children were murdered on the beach by israeli fire hamas were in negotiations to recognise israel. hamas were more interested in getting rid of the corrupt system that the PLO had resided over, and actually help the palastinians. but of course israel doesnt want that and has so far held back all taxes so that real progress cannot be made. they also go for a massive land grab and build an illegal wall on palastinian land.
http://www.myspace.com/thelastreel http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=19604327965
November 10, 1975 the United Nations General Assembly adopted, by a vote of 72 to 35 (with 32 abstentions), its Resolution 3379[1], which states as its conclusion:
Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.
The resolution also endorsed an August 1975 statement by the Conference of Ministers for Foreign Affairs of Non-Aligned Countries (Lima, Peru), that: ...severely condemned Zionism as a threat to world peace and security and called upon all countries to oppose this racist and imperalist ideology.[2]
The Wall
Israel's goal in building the wall appears threefold; one, confiscation of land and water for future expansion of the West Bank colonisation, two, unilaterally redraw geopolitical borders, and three, encourage the exodus of Palestinians by denying them the ability to earn a living from their land.[3]
Israel continues to deny the Palestinian people adequate water resources and restrict their movements to to such an extent as to make living in their village an unviable option.
The World Court in the Hague in July 2004 announced it's verdict that the wall is illegal and must go. A victory for the Palestinians, but the decision will most likely be ignored by Israel.[4]
References
1. UN Resolution 3379
2. A list of UN security counsel resolutions against Israel.
3. Israel and Palestine, 2003 and beyond
4. Israel's Wall Condemned by the International Court of Justice
whoa there...being democratically elected doesn't equal everybody has to treat you a certain way. Israel and the USA have recognized Hamas as a terrorist organization, and for good reason. They are holding the Palestinians responsible for the decisions they have made. It is not that the US and Israel don't recognize that Hamas was democratically elected. They do recognize this. They have chosen to treat the Hamas government a certain way based on the policies that Hamas espouses. The deaths on the beach are contested, and it is not at all clear who is responsible for the explosions there (full disclosure I'm convinced it wasn't an Israeli shell). I don't know why you say that Hamas was in negotiations to recognize Israel. They have explicitly refused to do just that. The fence is a whole other issue. Suffice it to say it is not illegal, and it is not Palestinian land. It is contested land. That is the whole point of this conflict.
The resolution labeling Zionism as racism is one of the greatest abominations to ever come out of the UN. It is the repudiation, based on a double standard, of a nation's right to self-determination. Note also the Cold War nature of the resolution. It was adopted because of the power of the Soviet bloc and the Arab bloc. This is clear from looking at the list of those that voted in favor. Note that virtually every Western country, where the problems of racism and bigotry are actually taken seriously, or are at least acknowledged, voted against.
With regards to the fence (it is actually only a wall in a very small portion of its total length) the Israeli supreme court has mandated that the route of the fence be based solely on security needs. Where they have deemed that the route reflected political and not security concerns they have forced the government to alter the route. The supreme court also attempts to weigh Israel's security needs as against Palestinian rights and have ruled multiple times in the Palestinian's favor. I know this because these decisions have been published, and I had a conversation not more than five hours ago on this topic with a former Israeli supreme court justice. As regards the Hague decision: the decision never once mentioned terrorism and Israel's security needs which are the very reasons for the fence's construction. It therefore seems that the decision was unfair. The Israeli supreme court offered its own decision, upon which its subsequent rulings have been based, which stated that the fence was legal with regards to international law so long as its route was determined by security needs alone. Hence the courts rulings forcing alterations in the route.
1. Hamas is a terror organization.
2. It used an old system many terror groups had used before - win the public trust by providing them social services & support in order to get to the parlament.
3. Once they got where they wanted, they stoped helping their civilians. Instead, they prefered smuggling weapons & buying weapons.
4. The Israeli govt and the rest of the world paniced when Hamas, a terror organization who doesn't believe in Israel's right to exsit won the elections, so naturally they stoped giving money to the PLO.
5. Palestinians went into some humanitarian crisis, Hamas reacted by smuggling weapons & money for buying weapons.The next step was to fire at Israeli town of Sderot and ruin every chance they had for Israel to take them seriously and continue with the rest of the withdrawals.
6. For dessert, Hamas planed and executed the killing & kidnapping of Israeli soliders within an Israeli territory, which is a supervision point called Kerem Shalom & part of an agreement between Israel & the PLO.
7. Israel had to return to Gaza.
Yep, Hamas really cares about his civilians interests. Right.
The only mistake we had is to panic and not wanting to finance and talk to a terror organization who believes Israel should be wiped off the map. One can expect us to behave that way in the beginning, don't you think? Well, Hamas didn't, that's why they also never really tried to negotiate with us.
Oh and - its not a wall, its a 95% fence, 5% concrete. We had to build it in order to reduce the number of suicide bombers getthing into Israel. It worked.
Wouldn't a wall on Israeli land be just as secure?
This has been going on for half a century. When is Israel going to realize retaliation doesn't fix anything. It's too bad the Jews didn't recognize Christ as the messiah, he had some good things to teach about making peace.
A US general was being intervied on NPR and he was pointing out an IDF attack where that happened...in one of the bombings 90 civilians were killed and 1 terrorist. I'm glad you're satisified with your numbers; it's always good when you kill more civilians than terrorists; very humane.
A wall that follows exactly the 1967 boundary would by definition exclude huge populations of settlers in the West Bank. Whatever your opinion of the settlers you have to understand that they are still citizens of Israel, and therefore there security is Israel's responsibility. Israel has therefore attempted to extend the fences protection to as many settlers as it can.
There hasn't been one bombing that killed 90 civilians. The largest single civilian death toll in one attack I believe was 28. Perhaps the general meant a wave of bombings, although I still don't think that would be accurate. Or perhaps the general was just wrong. After all he is an American general in America. No reason to think he has a better idea of what Israel has hit and who Israel has killed than Israel does. I'm not satisfied with my numbers. I wish we had killed no civilians and hundreds more terrorists. I do, however, recognize that war is tragic, especially war fought amongst a civilian population. It wasn't Israel's choice to fight in these conditions, but it will do so if it must.
Oh I see, so build an illegal wall to protect illegal settlers and ultimately gain ownership of the land. Why not withdraw the settlers?
Its a war that you will never win...your going to create more hatred and negative feelings towards Israel...just cannot believe people cannot see that is going to be case.....and it would be nice if you could just kill the bady guy...but what is the ratio of civilian deaths to bad guy deaths.....?
same here, it comes out all weird, but in the end i just don't what to say... it's horrible that we support that... fucking shame...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
A world without Israel would probably be a better place. They're right in the middle of too much shite. I look at it like this...if a few countries had a beef with Israel, I'd think it was just sour grapes on the part of those countries...but we're talking about the entire middle east and most of Pakistan. That suggests to me that the problem goes deepr that Israel being a lamb. When 20% of the entire land mass of Earth has a problem with you, it's probably you.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
here's the irony:
anonymous
ohhhh, why cant we be friends? why can't we be friends?
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
http://www.myspace.com/brain_of_c
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
And as we all know, the Arabs are ALWAYS right!
Probably when Hamas stop with its violence. We moved out of gaza, we were planning to continue with the rest of the withdrawals cause the PLO finaly mannaged to control most the violence, but Hamas had other plans - shooting towards Israeli town of Sderot ever since it got elected.
Israel's mistake = we got paniced in the begining for a good reason.
Hamas mistake = shooting at Israeli civilians in Sderot for no reason.
And please, spare me this spiritual crap, Christ and his believers were involved (in a bad way) in almost every catastrophe in the world. Leave religion out of this, nowdays it becomes the most irrelevant thing regarding this conflict. For someone who claim to have a research about the whole story your words seem to be quite ignorant.
There's really nothing to say to this stunning bit of lunacy except you are an ignorant moron who knows nothing about history.
Israel was attacked by multiple Arab countries in 1948, 1967, and 1973 merely for existing. Yes, many people in the world don't like Jews. Apparently you would agree with the solution that Hitler came up with when people don't like Jews, just kill them all.
Some of the views expressed in these threads about Israel are absolutely scary because it's hard to imagine so many people are not only uninformed, but also so incapable of using proper grammar, spelling, or making anything approaching a coherent argument.
Seriously, spend some time away from internet message boards and seek out an education. It will do you a lot of good.
Its already the case, and as long as the world refuses to send well trained Int forces to Southern Lebanon in order to protect Israeli & Lebanese civilians from Hizbullah violence, someone has to protect me, and that's the IDF. As soon as the world would step in (like it should had done 6 years ago), the IDF will step out. However, for some reason the world is in no hurry, and in the mean time more civilians are dying, more civilians have no home to return to, more civilians become prisoners in their own home, more animals & nature reserves are being destroted, and too many people including me don't know whether they'll still be alive tomorrow.
There are no winners in war, only losers, but instead of helping the "losers" (=civilians) you are too busy with finding someone to blame based on some irrelevant historical facts & "facts". Wow, bravo to you all, can you hear my applause all the way from the shelter?
As I've said the fence is not illegal so long as its route is determined by security needs. Israel would like to gain ownership of some of the land, but this is not an illegal aspiration. UN resolution states that Israel must withdraw from "territories" it conquered, but not from all the territories it conquered. The framers of that resolution have said explicitly that the wording was made that way in recognition of Israel's right to adjust the border so as to improve their security. As for withdrawing the settlers, Israel was planning on pulling out of most of the west bank except for the settlements that protect the approaches to Jerusalem and those that are just over the green line. Those plans are now on hold because the violence that emanated from Gaza after the Israeli withdrawl from there a year ago has made Israel wary of repeating the process in the West Bank.
You're right that Israel's actions will produce hatred for Israel in the Arab world. But Israel cannot afford to do nothing in the face of attacks on its civilians. That is exactly the tactical thinking of Hezbollah. They attack Israel, which makes them popular in the Arab street. Israel has to respond with force, but in doing so Hezbollah ensures that many civilians will be killed by situating themselves in the heart of civilian populations. These deaths further strengthen Hezbollah and hurt Israel's image. So yes, Israel cannot destroy Hezbollah, but they cannot allow Hezbollah to attack Israel with impunity. It's a catch 22.
That's a load of crap. I'm not even going to get into.
I love you.
Human Rights Watch said they did an on the ground investigation of all the accusations that Hizbullah uses civilian shields and they were all false. They don't doubt that it happens from time to time, but it's clearly not Hizbullah's stratagy.
My solution would not have been to displace tens of thousands of arabs just to appease the Jews. I'm sorry that we disagree, but I'm not the one making the personal attacks here. that's you. Perhaps I hit a nerve? I'm well aware of the history. Palestinians have as much of a "right" to exist as Israel does. It's called Darwinism...survival of the most fit. Had Israel not been propped up after WWII, they would not have survived.
Today, the people of Darfour are being slaughtered, and no one does anything, because Israel STILL can't handle their own business without constant propping up from America and the UN. So go ahead, call me an ignorant moron some more. You're probably just another whiny-assed Jew who can't wipe their own nose without the help of a real nation...a nation that was fought for and won by its own people, not a gimmie after WWII because everyone felt sorry for you.
I don't have much sympathy for anyone in that region, but least of all Israel. The people of Darfour have real problems...the same kinds of problems the Jews had 60 years ago, but nobody cares. Even if we did, we probably couldn't do anything because Israel can't wipe its own ass, much less fight off Hezbollah and Hamas...those organizations aren't even real armies. Israel has this big army...armed to the teeth, and they can't even put down a few thousand bad guys.
Hitler was a bad guy, but that was 60 years ago. Sooner or later, the Jews have to stop crying about that too. Life goes on.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader