death of a tyrant

Max

chinobaeza wrote:

maybe my englidh is not the best.....
I'm not defending Allende or Pinochet, I'm only saying that both were fuc'ing criminals and thiefs. I don't like them.

allende a criminal and a thief??....c`mon, be serious
its ok if you dont like him but try to speak with the truth and reason

chinobaeza

Max wrote:

allende a criminal and a thief??....c`mon, be serious
its ok if you dont like him but try to speak with the truth and reason

what the hell do you know about the truth?.
And yes, he was a CRIMINAL AND A THIEF. He killed my grandpa and stole his farm. Pinochet killed my best friend's father.
So don't come over here and tell me to speak with the truth if you don't know it.
I know you are chilean, you have more information than everybody on here, son don't close your eyes to it. History is history, not what we want it to be.

chinobaeza

ThumbingMyWay32 wrote:

The problem is chinobaeza that a lot of people, especially on these boards, are unwilling to distinguish absolute definition from the real world.

These are the same people who are unable to understand the inaccuracy of a 99%-1% "election" victory Saddam won in his final "re-election" bid. To these people, democratic elections are democratic elections. Just accept the fact that you're always wrong and America is responsible for all major problems we face in the world today, and most minor ones.

Second that...thanks

CaterinaA

chinobaeza wrote:

what the hell do you know about the truth?.
And yes, he was a CRIMINAL AND A THIEF. He killed my grandpa and stole his farm. Pinochet killed my best friend's father.
So don't come over here and tell me to speak with the truth if you don't know it.
I know you are chilean, you have more information than everybody on here, son don't close your eyes to it. History is history, not what we want it to be.

Of course HHRR violations were more massive during Pinochet's regime (as well as better organized); however it is undeniable that many people died as a product of violence between 1970 and 1973. Banks were robbed and bombed, terrorist attacks were nothing rare, farms and factories (small and big) were expropriated and those who weren't involved in the government or didn't have party credentials (the unfamous JAP card) pretty much had to go back to exchange economy (I have 1 kilo of sugar, do you have cooking oil?). The polarization Chile's society still endures begun during those days. Members of other Latin American guerrillas deambulated happily throughout our country. Those 3 years were really chaotic. You all have to take into consideration that Allende won the election with only 33% of the popular vote and he did not have majority in Congress. When he won the election he signed an agreement with the Congress in which he promised he would guarantee constitutional order, he would totally respect the Constitution and would not engage in a marxist revolution. As soon as the Congress invested him as President he started to violate every single point of the "governance agreement". Private property was no longer to be respected and thousands of farms, factories, etc were expropriated. This -plus a very poor management of the economy- led to Chile's paralization and to a massive shortage of supplies, in particular for those who didn't have the ration card. Most of chileans can tell you a story about how many lines they had to do in order to buy the most essential goods. At the same time those who were in the UP government systematically augmented their personal wealth. So, the country was a total chaos, among other things hiperinflation arose to 500% par month. During mid 1973 cooper workers and truck drivers started a massive strike, while political violence increased on a daily basis. Finally, after many failed attempts by the Supreme Court, the Congress and several other institutions to convince Allende to restore order in the country; the Congress declared unconstitutional his government. So this paved the way to the Coup d' Etat, which had massive popular support. This might sound strange, but people would go to the military quarters to beg them to do something. Those who weren't involved in the UP government were in total desperation and saw no other exit to such mess. Of course nobody knew what was coming. This, of course, does not excuse one bit Pinochet HHRR violations, but I can see where chinobaeza was coming from in terms of telling the whole story; cause Chile's mess really started on 1970, Pinochet regime was a consequence of Allende's ineptitude and institutional actors' incapacity to provide a solution for the mess Chile was during those days.

On a personal note, in 1972, some MIR militants (armed branch of the government) went on to expropriate the small factory my father was working for. My father was an area manager (you know, low white collar position, nothing too fancy). Well him and everybody that worked for at the firm tried to resist the expropriation. So, they threatened to kill everybody if they didn't give them the factory, these fellows were heavily armed with Kalashnikovs and M16. Every single person that was working that day in the factory was taken out by force, actually pointed by a shotgun. Furthermore, since my dad is italian, he had to stay "semi in-hiding" cause they threaten to deport him back to Italy; he was unemployed for more than a year. And one time my mom (she was 19 back then) had to go to Santiago's downtown to run some errands, and she happened to step into some UP militants. Well they beat the shit out of her, spat on her, etc, just because, since she is blonde they decided she was a rich girl and therefore deserved to be beaten...

Oh, just to get this clear. I, like chinobaeza, despise both Allende and Pinochet. Both are a very sad part of Chile's history. Hopefully now that the dictator is gone, we can all look into the future and accomplish a goal that is not beyond reach for us: becoming a developed country, with almost no poverty. Chile is on the right path to make it...

Edit: I erased by mistake a couple of sentences, so I had to write them back.

Byrnzie

CaterinaA wrote:

Of course HHRR violations were more massive during Pinochet's regime (as well as better organized); however it is undeniable that many people died as a product of violence between 1970 and 1973. Banks were robbed and bombed, terrorist attacks were nothing rare, farms and factories (small and big) were expropriated and those who weren't involved in the government or didn't have party credentials (the unfamous JAP card) pretty much had to go back to exchange economy (I have 1 kilo of sugar, do you have cooking oil?). The polarization Chile's society still endures begun during those days. Members of other Latin American guerrillas deambulated happily throughout our country. Those 3 years were really chaotic. You all have to take into consideration that Allende won the election with only 33% of the popular vote and he did not have majority in Congress. When he won the election he signed an agreement with the Congress in which he promised he would guarantee constitutional order, he would totally respect the Constitution and would not engage in a marxist revolution. As soon as the Congress invested him as President he started to violate every single point of the "governance agreement". Private property was no longer to be respected and thousands of farms, factories, etc were expropriated. This -plus a very poor management of the economy- led to Chile's paralization and to a massive shortage of supplies, in particular for those who didn't have the ration card. Most of chileans can tell you a story about how many lines they had to do in order to buy the most essential goods. At the same time those who were in the UP government systematically augmented their personal wealth. So, the country was a total chaos, among other things hiperinflation arose to 500% par month. During mid 1973 cooper workers and truck drivers started a massive strike, while political violence increased on a daily basis. Finally, after many failed attempts by the Supreme Court, the Congress and several other institutions to convince Allende to restore order in the country; the Congress declared unconstitutional his government. So this paved the way to the Coup d' Etat, which had massive popular support. This might sound strange, but people would go to the military quarters to beg them to do something. Those who weren't involved in the UP government were in total desperation and saw no other exit to such mess. Of course nobody knew what was coming. This, of course, does not excuse one bit Pinochet HHRR violations, but I can see where chinobaeza was coming from in terms of telling the whole story; cause Chile's mess really started on 1970, Pinochet regime was a consequence of Allende's ineptitude and institutional actors' incapacity to provide a solution for the mess Chile was during those days.

On a personal note, in 1972, some MIR militants (armed branch of the government) went on to expropriate the small factory my father was working for. My father was an area manager (you know, low white collar position, nothing too fancy). Well him and everybody that worked for at the firm tried to resist the expropriation. So, they threatened to kill everybody if they didn't give them the factory, these fellows were heavily armed with Kalashnikovs and M16. Every single person that was working that day in the factory was taken out by force, actually pointed by a shotgun. Furthermore, since my dad is italian, he had to stay "semi in-hiding" cause they threaten to deport him back to Italy; he was unemployed for more than a year. And one time my mom (she was 19 back then) had to go to Santiago's downtown to run some errands, and she happened to step into some UP militants. Well they beat the shit out of her, spat on her, etc, just because, since she is blonde they decided she was a rich girl and therefore deserved to be beaten...

Oh, just to get this clear. I, like chinobaeza, despise both Allende and Pinochet. Both are a very sad part of Chile's history. Hopefully now that the dictator is gone, we can all look into the future and accomplish a goal that is not beyond reach for us: becoming a developed country, with almost no poverty. Chile is on the right path to make it...

Edit: I erased by mistake a couple of sentences, so I had to write them back.

Thanks for taking the time to post that. I'll put my hands up and admit that there's much about what happened there that I know nothing about. I'll need to get my reading glasses on.

chinobaeza

CaterinaA wrote:

Of course HHRR violations were more massive during Pinochet's regime (as well as better organized); however it is undeniable that many people died as a product of violence between 1970 and 1973. Banks were robbed and bombed, terrorist attacks were nothing rare, farms and factories (small and big) were expropriated and those who weren't involved in the government or didn't have party credentials (the unfamous JAP card) pretty much had to go back to exchange economy (I have 1 kilo of sugar, do you have cooking oil?). The polarization Chile's society still endures begun during those days. Members of other Latin American guerrillas deambulated happily throughout our country. Those 3 years were really chaotic. You all have to take into consideration that Allende won the election with only 33% of the popular vote and he did not have majority in Congress. When he won the election he signed an agreement with the Congress in which he promised he would guarantee constitutional order, he would totally respect the Constitution and would not engage in a marxist revolution. As soon as the Congress invested him as President he started to violate every single point of the "governance agreement". Private property was no longer to be respected and thousands of farms, factories, etc were expropriated. This -plus a very poor management of the economy- led to Chile's paralization and to a massive shortage of supplies, in particular for those who didn't have the ration card. Most of chileans can tell you a story about how many lines they had to do in order to buy the most essential goods. At the same time those who were in the UP government systematically augmented their personal wealth. So, the country was a total chaos, among other things hiperinflation arose to 500% par month. During mid 1973 cooper workers and truck drivers started a massive strike, while political violence increased on a daily basis. Finally, after many failed attempts by the Supreme Court, the Congress and several other institutions to convince Allende to restore order in the country; the Congress declared unconstitutional his government. So this paved the way to the Coup d' Etat, which had massive popular support. This might sound strange, but people would go to the military quarters to beg them to do something. Those who weren't involved in the UP government were in total desperation and saw no other exit to such mess. Of course nobody knew what was coming. This, of course, does not excuse one bit Pinochet HHRR violations, but I can see where chinobaeza was coming from in terms of telling the whole story; cause Chile's mess really started on 1970, Pinochet regime was a consequence of Allende's ineptitude and institutional actors' incapacity to provide a solution for the mess Chile was during those days.

On a personal note, in 1972, some MIR militants (armed branch of the government) went on to expropriate the small factory my father was working for. My father was an area manager (you know, low white collar position, nothing too fancy). Well him and everybody that worked for at the firm tried to resist the expropriation. So, they threatened to kill everybody if they didn't give them the factory, these fellows were heavily armed with Kalashnikovs and M16. Every single person that was working that day in the factory was taken out by force, actually pointed by a shotgun. Furthermore, since my dad is italian, he had to stay "semi in-hiding" cause they threaten to deport him back to Italy; he was unemployed for more than a year. And one time my mom (she was 19 back then) had to go to Santiago's downtown to run some errands, and she happened to step into some UP militants. Well they beat the shit out of her, spat on her, etc, just because, since she is blonde they decided she was a rich girl and therefore deserved to be beaten...

Oh, just to get this clear. I, like chinobaeza, despise both Allende and Pinochet. Both are a very sad part of Chile's history. Hopefully now that the dictator is gone, we can all look into the future and accomplish a goal that is not beyond reach for us: becoming a developed country, with almost no poverty. Chile is on the right path to make it...

Edit: I erased by mistake a couple of sentences, so I had to write them back.

wow :eek:...finally someone with a better english than mine could express all my opinions...thanks for doing that!!!

CaterinaA

chinobaeza wrote:

wow :eek:...finally someone with a better english than mine could express all my opinions...thanks for doing that!!!

No problem, I just had to. I strongly believe -as a Chilean, even though I'm currently working and living in BsAs- that if we really want to become a developed country we have to look at the full picture and reconcile among ourselves. We are really close to make what very few other countries have achieved, but I'm afraid politician's pettiness won't let it happen, although I hope them to prove me wrong...

Even if politicians refuse to do so, it is our duty as citizens to try to comprehend what happened between 1970 and 1988, so we don't make those mistakes again. Yet, I'm afraid a couple of generations will have to pass, before chileans really come together as a society, wounds are still much too open in both sides, and politicians are not doing a brilliant job in terms of helping to close the gaps. Maybe now that the dictator is gone, they'll have no option but to focus in our country's progress.

Foxwell

This is from an article in the Washington Post about his legacy and death:

"But his off-the-cuff comments sometimes got him into trouble. Once, he embarrassed the [Chilean] government by saying that the German army was made up of "marijuana smokers, homosexuals, long-haired unionists."

Isn't it funny when someone uses stereotypes as an insult and you take it as a compliment.

Some of my best friends are marijuana smokers, homosexuals, and long-haired unionists.

Max

chinobaeza wrote:

what the hell do you know about the truth?.
And yes, he was a CRIMINAL AND A THIEF. He killed my grandpa and stole his farm. Pinochet killed my best friend's father.
So don't come over here and tell me to speak with the truth if you don't know it.
I know you are chilean, you have more information than everybody on here, son don't close your eyes to it. History is history, not what we want it to be.

ok sorry for that, my mistake.... (my uncles were tortured and exiled by the way).
my point is that the crimes commited during his goverment were not a policy of the state, like during the dictatorship, and the thefts you talk about were not for his own enrichement (enriquecimiento), but were for the "good of the people" (of course, that is not the way to do it, he was obviously wrong), so i think there is a diffrence.... beacause of the intension each one had (pinochet and allende).
thats the way i feel.

y bueno, no se como decir esto en inglés, pero jamás habrá reconciliación, sin verdad ni justicia.

chinobaeza

Max wrote:

ok sorry for that, my mistake.... (my uncles were tortured and exiled by the way).
my point is that the crimes commited during his goverment were not a policy of the state, like during the dictatorship, and the thefts you talk about were not for his own enrichement (enriquecimiento), but were for the "good of the people" (of course, that is not the way to do it, he was obviously wrong), so i think there is a diffrence.... beacause of the intension each one had (pinochet and allende).
thats the way i feel.

y bueno, no se como decir esto en inglés, pero jamás habrá reconciliación, sin verdad ni justicia.

Doesn't matter...no hard feelings. And I tottally agree with you that " the crimes commited during his goverment were not a policy of the state, like during the dictatorship"

brainofPJ

R.i.p.

josevolution

R.I H. PINOCHET.........viva CHILE mierda .......i was 13 yrs old when all this shit happened in CHILE my father who some how saw the future in CHILE left in 1967 to come to the USA he worked in factory's to get the money to send for us and sure enough it happened that we left CHILE to come here in 1971 right before the shit hit the fan for that i will be for ever in debted to my dear father we were one of the lucky family's to make it out of CHILE .....