death of a tyrant

darkcrowdarkcrow Posts: 1,102
edited December 2006 in A Moving Train
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6167237.stm

Chile's Gen Pinochet dies at 91

Gen Pinochet celebrated his 91st birthday last month
Chile's former military leader Augusto Pinochet has died at the age of 91.
The general entered a Santiago hospital a week ago after a heart attack. He was thought to be recovering when his condition suddenly worsened on Sunday.

Gen Pinochet seized power in a coup against an elected government in 1973. More than 3,000 people were killed or "disappeared" over the next 17 years.

He was accused of dozens of human rights violations and tax evasion but never faced trial due to poor health.

What saddens me is that this criminal has died without having been sentenced

Hugo Gutierrez
Human rights lawyer


Reactions to death
The hospital said Gen Pinochet passed away at 1415 local (1715GMT).

"He died surrounded by his family," the hospital's Dr Juan Ignacio Vergara told reporters.

More details would be made available later, he said.

After suffering his heart attack, he underwent angioplasty surgery to unblock an artery, and received the last rites from a Catholic priest.

HAVE YOUR SAY
I hope my country can find peace after his death. Reconciliation is the key

Veronica, Santiago, Chile


Send us your comments
But in the days afterwards his condition had been thought to be improving.

Chilean newspaper La Tercera de la Hora Online says dozens of supporters who had been keeping a vigil outside the military hospital are weeping and praying following the general's death.

It is expected they will be joined by other supporters as news of his death spreads.

'Loved by many'

Opponents have expressed anger that Gen Pinochet died without justice being done over the charges that had been brought.


Despite his human rights record, the general had staunch supporters

"What saddens me is that this criminal has died without having been sentenced and I believe the responsibility the state bears in this has to be considered", human rights lawyer Hugo Gutierrez told La Tercera Online.

Despite his human rights record, many Chileans loved him and said he saved the country from Marxism.

But even many loyal supporters abandoned him after it became clear in 2004 that he had stolen about $27m in secret offshore bank accounts that were under investigation at the time of his death, the BBC's Daniel Schweimler in Buenos Aires says.

'Political responsibility

In June 1973, Gen Pinochet led the armed forces in a dramatic coup against the democratically elected Marxist government of Salvador Allende.

Close to the end of my days, I want to make clear that I hold no rancour towards anybody, that I love my country above all else

Recent Pinochet statement

The violence of the uprising and the oppression that followed shook the world. He went on to become one of South America's best-known military rulers of the 1970s and 80s.

Earlier in November, Gen Pinochet was placed under house arrest over the abduction of two people in 1973.

The charges - the latest in a series - related to the Caravan of Death, a military operation to remove opponents of his rule.

In a statement read by his wife on his 91st birthday, Gen Pinochet said he accepted "political responsibility" for acts committed during his rule.

"Today, close to the end of my days, I want to make clear that I hold no rancour towards anybody, that I love my country above all else," his statement said.
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Comments

  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    He deserves the same kind of reaction to his death as Hitler did. They should burn his body in a trash bin.
  • darkcrowdarkcrow Posts: 1,102
    unfortunatly the american govt (at the time) and mine (well thatcher) loved him. they brushed aside the fact he murdered thousands.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    darkcrow wrote:
    unfortunatly the american govt (at the time) and mine (well thatcher) loved him. they brushed aside the fact he murdered thousands.

    I remember an article in the Sunday Telegraph when he was imprisoned over here under house arrest with a quaint little title like 'Tea with Pinochet' which described how Thatcher visited him in his big country mansion - prison - and spent the day drinking tea together and reminiscing over the good old days. The Telegraph painted a very pretty picture of the occasion. I've not touched a copy since.
  • Uncle LeoUncle Leo Posts: 1,059
    darkcrow wrote:
    unfortunatly the american govt (at the time) and mine (well thatcher) loved him. they brushed aside the fact he murdered thousands.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilean_coup_of_1973
    I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    Well that's one more seat occupied in hell.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • chinobaezachinobaeza Posts: 2,489
    I don't like Pinochet, neither Allende, but people don't tell the whole Chilean history.
    The country between 1970-1973 was a chaos. Thousands of Russian's weapons and massive land expropriations. The was no food in Chile while Allende and his friends where living like kings.
    People had to wake up at 5 am to get a piece of bread while their houses and farms were expropriated. There were no buses services, trains, public services, etc...they were all on strikes.
    Then Pinochet came and stabilized the country, but he made all the horrorifics things that we all now.
    Hope that he's having a nice conversation in hell with Allende.

    My 2 cents.

    PD: sorry for my english :)
  • chinobaeza wrote:
    I don't like Pinochet, neither Allende, but people don't tell the whole Chilean history.
    The country between 1970-1973 was a chaos. Thousands of Russian's weapons and massive land expropriations. The was no food in Chile while Allende and his friends where living like kings.
    People had to wake up at 5 am to get a piece of bread while their houses and farms were expropriated. There were no buses services, trains, public services, etc...they were all on strikes.
    Then Pinochet came and stabilized the country, but he made all the horrorifics things that we all now.
    Hope that he's having a nice conversation with Allende in hell.

    My 2 cents.

    PD: sorry for my english :)

    Oh, he's roasting.
  • Thought Bush died there for a second.
  • chinobaezachinobaeza Posts: 2,489
    Smellyman wrote:
    Thought Bush died there for a second.
    That would have been "the perfect day"
  • MaxMax Posts: 7
    chinobaeza wrote:
    I don't like Pinochet, neither Allende, but people don't tell the whole Chilean history.
    The country between 1970-1973 was a chaos. Thousands of Russian's weapons and massive land expropriations. The was no food in Chile while Allende and his friends where living like kings.
    People had to wake up at 5 am to get a piece of bread while their houses and farms were expropriated. There were no buses services, trains, public services, etc...they were all on strikes.
    Then Pinochet came and stabilized the country, but he made all the horrorifics things that we all now.
    Hope that he's having a nice conversation in hell with Allende.

    My 2 cents.

    PD: sorry for my english :)

    then the whole chilean history is that there was also a massive boicot against allende´s goverment
  • chinobaezachinobaeza Posts: 2,489
    Max wrote:
    then the whole chilean history is that there was also a massive boicot against allende´s goverment
    no, the history is marked by intolerance
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    chinobaeza wrote:
    The was no food in Chile while Allende and his friends where living like kings.

    Was Allende not voted into power in a democratic election?
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    its weird how mass murderers are linked to the US somehow

    Saddam, Hitler, Pinochet
  • chinobaezachinobaeza Posts: 2,489
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Was Allende not voted into power in a democratic election?
    he was...first socialist president who won an election...
    He was a fuc'ing thief and Pinochet a fuc'ing genocide....what a decade!! :(
  • Goodbye, Fucker

    and they stand to your grabe
    'till they're sure that you're DEAD
    Beavis : Is this Pearl Jam?
    Butt-head: This guy makes faces like Eddie Vedder.
    Beavis: No, Eddie Vedder makes faces like this guy.
    Butt-head: I heard these guys, like, came first and Pearl Jam ripped them off.
    Beavis: No, Pearl Jam came first.
    Butt-head: Well, they both suck.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    chinobaeza wrote:
    he was...first socialist president who won an election...

    Right. A democratically elected leader. Overthrown and murdered by a murderous military dictator. I don't understand your point.
  • macgyver06 wrote:
    its weird how mass murderers are linked to the US somehow

    Saddam, Hitler, Pinochet

    How so?
  • chinobaezachinobaeza Posts: 2,489
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Right. A democratically elected leader. Overthrown and murdered by a murderous military dictator. I don't understand your point.
    maybe my englidh is not the best.....
    I'm not defending Allende or Pinochet, I'm only saying that both were fuc'ing criminals and thiefs. I don't like them.
  • macgyver06 wrote:
    its weird how mass murderers are linked to the US somehow

    Saddam, Hitler, Pinochet

    You forgot BUSH!!!!


    hahahahahahahahahahahah like that one??????
    "Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"

    "What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."

    Camden 5-28-06
    Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
  • chinobaeza wrote:
    maybe my englidh is not the best.....
    I'm not defending Allende or Pinochet, I'm only saying that both were fuc'ing criminals and thiefs. I don't like them.


    The problem is chinobaeza that a lot of people, especially on these boards, are unwilling to distinguish absolute definition from the real world.

    These are the same people who are unable to understand the inaccuracy of a 99%-1% "election" victory Saddam won in his final "re-election" bid. To these people, democratic elections are democratic elections. Just accept the fact that you're always wrong and America is responsible for all major problems we face in the world today, and most minor ones.
    "Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"

    "What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."

    Camden 5-28-06
    Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
  • MaxMax Posts: 7
    chinobaeza wrote:
    maybe my englidh is not the best.....
    I'm not defending Allende or Pinochet, I'm only saying that both were fuc'ing criminals and thiefs. I don't like them.

    allende a criminal and a thief??....c`mon, be serious
    its ok if you dont like him but try to speak with the truth and reason
  • chinobaezachinobaeza Posts: 2,489
    Max wrote:
    allende a criminal and a thief??....c`mon, be serious
    its ok if you dont like him but try to speak with the truth and reason
    what the hell do you know about the truth?.
    And yes, he was a CRIMINAL AND A THIEF. He killed my grandpa and stole his farm. Pinochet killed my best friend's father.
    So don't come over here and tell me to speak with the truth if you don't know it.
    I know you are chilean, you have more information than everybody on here, son don't close your eyes to it. History is history, not what we want it to be.
  • chinobaezachinobaeza Posts: 2,489
    The problem is chinobaeza that a lot of people, especially on these boards, are unwilling to distinguish absolute definition from the real world.

    These are the same people who are unable to understand the inaccuracy of a 99%-1% "election" victory Saddam won in his final "re-election" bid. To these people, democratic elections are democratic elections. Just accept the fact that you're always wrong and America is responsible for all major problems we face in the world today, and most minor ones.
    Second that...thanks :)
  • chinobaeza wrote:
    what the hell do you know about the truth?.
    And yes, he was a CRIMINAL AND A THIEF. He killed my grandpa and stole his farm. Pinochet killed my best friend's father.
    So don't come over here and tell me to speak with the truth if you don't know it.
    I know you are chilean, you have more information than everybody on here, son don't close your eyes to it. History is history, not what we want it to be.

    Of course HHRR violations were more massive during Pinochet's regime (as well as better organized); however it is undeniable that many people died as a product of violence between 1970 and 1973. Banks were robbed and bombed, terrorist attacks were nothing rare, farms and factories (small and big) were expropriated and those who weren't involved in the government or didn't have party credentials (the unfamous JAP card) pretty much had to go back to exchange economy (I have 1 kilo of sugar, do you have cooking oil?). The polarization Chile's society still endures begun during those days. Members of other Latin American guerrillas deambulated happily throughout our country. Those 3 years were really chaotic. You all have to take into consideration that Allende won the election with only 33% of the popular vote and he did not have majority in Congress. When he won the election he signed an agreement with the Congress in which he promised he would guarantee constitutional order, he would totally respect the Constitution and would not engage in a marxist revolution. As soon as the Congress invested him as President he started to violate every single point of the "governance agreement". Private property was no longer to be respected and thousands of farms, factories, etc were expropriated. This -plus a very poor management of the economy- led to Chile's paralization and to a massive shortage of supplies, in particular for those who didn't have the ration card. Most of chileans can tell you a story about how many lines they had to do in order to buy the most essential goods. At the same time those who were in the UP government systematically augmented their personal wealth. So, the country was a total chaos, among other things hiperinflation arose to 500% par month. During mid 1973 cooper workers and truck drivers started a massive strike, while political violence increased on a daily basis. Finally, after many failed attempts by the Supreme Court, the Congress and several other institutions to convince Allende to restore order in the country; the Congress declared unconstitutional his government. So this paved the way to the Coup d' Etat, which had massive popular support. This might sound strange, but people would go to the military quarters to beg them to do something. Those who weren't involved in the UP government were in total desperation and saw no other exit to such mess. Of course nobody knew what was coming. This, of course, does not excuse one bit Pinochet HHRR violations, but I can see where chinobaeza was coming from in terms of telling the whole story; cause Chile's mess really started on 1970, Pinochet regime was a consequence of Allende's ineptitude and institutional actors' incapacity to provide a solution for the mess Chile was during those days.

    On a personal note, in 1972, some MIR militants (armed branch of the government) went on to expropriate the small factory my father was working for. My father was an area manager (you know, low white collar position, nothing too fancy). Well him and everybody that worked for at the firm tried to resist the expropriation. So, they threatened to kill everybody if they didn't give them the factory, these fellows were heavily armed with Kalashnikovs and M16. Every single person that was working that day in the factory was taken out by force, actually pointed by a shotgun. Furthermore, since my dad is italian, he had to stay "semi in-hiding" cause they threaten to deport him back to Italy; he was unemployed for more than a year. And one time my mom (she was 19 back then) had to go to Santiago's downtown to run some errands, and she happened to step into some UP militants. Well they beat the shit out of her, spat on her, etc, just because, since she is blonde they decided she was a rich girl and therefore deserved to be beaten...

    Oh, just to get this clear. I, like chinobaeza, despise both Allende and Pinochet. Both are a very sad part of Chile's history. Hopefully now that the dictator is gone, we can all look into the future and accomplish a goal that is not beyond reach for us: becoming a developed country, with almost no poverty. Chile is on the right path to make it...

    Edit: I erased by mistake a couple of sentences, so I had to write them back.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    CaterinaA wrote:
    Of course HHRR violations were more massive during Pinochet's regime (as well as better organized); however it is undeniable that many people died as a product of violence between 1970 and 1973. Banks were robbed and bombed, terrorist attacks were nothing rare, farms and factories (small and big) were expropriated and those who weren't involved in the government or didn't have party credentials (the unfamous JAP card) pretty much had to go back to exchange economy (I have 1 kilo of sugar, do you have cooking oil?). The polarization Chile's society still endures begun during those days. Members of other Latin American guerrillas deambulated happily throughout our country. Those 3 years were really chaotic. You all have to take into consideration that Allende won the election with only 33% of the popular vote and he did not have majority in Congress. When he won the election he signed an agreement with the Congress in which he promised he would guarantee constitutional order, he would totally respect the Constitution and would not engage in a marxist revolution. As soon as the Congress invested him as President he started to violate every single point of the "governance agreement". Private property was no longer to be respected and thousands of farms, factories, etc were expropriated. This -plus a very poor management of the economy- led to Chile's paralization and to a massive shortage of supplies, in particular for those who didn't have the ration card. Most of chileans can tell you a story about how many lines they had to do in order to buy the most essential goods. At the same time those who were in the UP government systematically augmented their personal wealth. So, the country was a total chaos, among other things hiperinflation arose to 500% par month. During mid 1973 cooper workers and truck drivers started a massive strike, while political violence increased on a daily basis. Finally, after many failed attempts by the Supreme Court, the Congress and several other institutions to convince Allende to restore order in the country; the Congress declared unconstitutional his government. So this paved the way to the Coup d' Etat, which had massive popular support. This might sound strange, but people would go to the military quarters to beg them to do something. Those who weren't involved in the UP government were in total desperation and saw no other exit to such mess. Of course nobody knew what was coming. This, of course, does not excuse one bit Pinochet HHRR violations, but I can see where chinobaeza was coming from in terms of telling the whole story; cause Chile's mess really started on 1970, Pinochet regime was a consequence of Allende's ineptitude and institutional actors' incapacity to provide a solution for the mess Chile was during those days.

    On a personal note, in 1972, some MIR militants (armed branch of the government) went on to expropriate the small factory my father was working for. My father was an area manager (you know, low white collar position, nothing too fancy). Well him and everybody that worked for at the firm tried to resist the expropriation. So, they threatened to kill everybody if they didn't give them the factory, these fellows were heavily armed with Kalashnikovs and M16. Every single person that was working that day in the factory was taken out by force, actually pointed by a shotgun. Furthermore, since my dad is italian, he had to stay "semi in-hiding" cause they threaten to deport him back to Italy; he was unemployed for more than a year. And one time my mom (she was 19 back then) had to go to Santiago's downtown to run some errands, and she happened to step into some UP militants. Well they beat the shit out of her, spat on her, etc, just because, since she is blonde they decided she was a rich girl and therefore deserved to be beaten...

    Oh, just to get this clear. I, like chinobaeza, despise both Allende and Pinochet. Both are a very sad part of Chile's history. Hopefully now that the dictator is gone, we can all look into the future and accomplish a goal that is not beyond reach for us: becoming a developed country, with almost no poverty. Chile is on the right path to make it...

    Edit: I erased by mistake a couple of sentences, so I had to write them back.

    Thanks for taking the time to post that. I'll put my hands up and admit that there's much about what happened there that I know nothing about. I'll need to get my reading glasses on.
  • chinobaezachinobaeza Posts: 2,489
    CaterinaA wrote:
    Of course HHRR violations were more massive during Pinochet's regime (as well as better organized); however it is undeniable that many people died as a product of violence between 1970 and 1973. Banks were robbed and bombed, terrorist attacks were nothing rare, farms and factories (small and big) were expropriated and those who weren't involved in the government or didn't have party credentials (the unfamous JAP card) pretty much had to go back to exchange economy (I have 1 kilo of sugar, do you have cooking oil?). The polarization Chile's society still endures begun during those days. Members of other Latin American guerrillas deambulated happily throughout our country. Those 3 years were really chaotic. You all have to take into consideration that Allende won the election with only 33% of the popular vote and he did not have majority in Congress. When he won the election he signed an agreement with the Congress in which he promised he would guarantee constitutional order, he would totally respect the Constitution and would not engage in a marxist revolution. As soon as the Congress invested him as President he started to violate every single point of the "governance agreement". Private property was no longer to be respected and thousands of farms, factories, etc were expropriated. This -plus a very poor management of the economy- led to Chile's paralization and to a massive shortage of supplies, in particular for those who didn't have the ration card. Most of chileans can tell you a story about how many lines they had to do in order to buy the most essential goods. At the same time those who were in the UP government systematically augmented their personal wealth. So, the country was a total chaos, among other things hiperinflation arose to 500% par month. During mid 1973 cooper workers and truck drivers started a massive strike, while political violence increased on a daily basis. Finally, after many failed attempts by the Supreme Court, the Congress and several other institutions to convince Allende to restore order in the country; the Congress declared unconstitutional his government. So this paved the way to the Coup d' Etat, which had massive popular support. This might sound strange, but people would go to the military quarters to beg them to do something. Those who weren't involved in the UP government were in total desperation and saw no other exit to such mess. Of course nobody knew what was coming. This, of course, does not excuse one bit Pinochet HHRR violations, but I can see where chinobaeza was coming from in terms of telling the whole story; cause Chile's mess really started on 1970, Pinochet regime was a consequence of Allende's ineptitude and institutional actors' incapacity to provide a solution for the mess Chile was during those days.

    On a personal note, in 1972, some MIR militants (armed branch of the government) went on to expropriate the small factory my father was working for. My father was an area manager (you know, low white collar position, nothing too fancy). Well him and everybody that worked for at the firm tried to resist the expropriation. So, they threatened to kill everybody if they didn't give them the factory, these fellows were heavily armed with Kalashnikovs and M16. Every single person that was working that day in the factory was taken out by force, actually pointed by a shotgun. Furthermore, since my dad is italian, he had to stay "semi in-hiding" cause they threaten to deport him back to Italy; he was unemployed for more than a year. And one time my mom (she was 19 back then) had to go to Santiago's downtown to run some errands, and she happened to step into some UP militants. Well they beat the shit out of her, spat on her, etc, just because, since she is blonde they decided she was a rich girl and therefore deserved to be beaten...

    Oh, just to get this clear. I, like chinobaeza, despise both Allende and Pinochet. Both are a very sad part of Chile's history. Hopefully now that the dictator is gone, we can all look into the future and accomplish a goal that is not beyond reach for us: becoming a developed country, with almost no poverty. Chile is on the right path to make it...

    Edit: I erased by mistake a couple of sentences, so I had to write them back.
    wow :eek:...finally someone with a better english than mine could express all my opinions...thanks for doing that!!!
    :)
  • chinobaeza wrote:
    wow :eek:...finally someone with a better english than mine could express all my opinions...thanks for doing that!!!
    :)

    No problem, I just had to. I strongly believe -as a Chilean, even though I'm currently working and living in BsAs- that if we really want to become a developed country we have to look at the full picture and reconcile among ourselves. We are really close to make what very few other countries have achieved, but I'm afraid politician's pettiness won't let it happen, although I hope them to prove me wrong...

    Even if politicians refuse to do so, it is our duty as citizens to try to comprehend what happened between 1970 and 1988, so we don't make those mistakes again. Yet, I'm afraid a couple of generations will have to pass, before chileans really come together as a society, wounds are still much too open in both sides, and politicians are not doing a brilliant job in terms of helping to close the gaps. Maybe now that the dictator is gone, they'll have no option but to focus in our country's progress.
  • FoxwellFoxwell Posts: 142
    This is from an article in the Washington Post about his legacy and death:

    "But his off-the-cuff comments sometimes got him into trouble. Once, he embarrassed the [Chilean] government by saying that the German army was made up of "marijuana smokers, homosexuals, long-haired unionists."

    Isn't it funny when someone uses stereotypes as an insult and you take it as a compliment.

    Some of my best friends are marijuana smokers, homosexuals, and long-haired unionists.
    "In the depths of winter, I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer." -- Albert Camus

    "He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that." -- John Stuart Mill

    "Mongo just a pawn in game of life." -- Mongo
  • MaxMax Posts: 7
    chinobaeza wrote:
    what the hell do you know about the truth?.
    And yes, he was a CRIMINAL AND A THIEF. He killed my grandpa and stole his farm. Pinochet killed my best friend's father.
    So don't come over here and tell me to speak with the truth if you don't know it.
    I know you are chilean, you have more information than everybody on here, son don't close your eyes to it. History is history, not what we want it to be.

    ok sorry for that, my mistake.... (my uncles were tortured and exiled by the way).
    my point is that the crimes commited during his goverment were not a policy of the state, like during the dictatorship, and the thefts you talk about were not for his own enrichement (enriquecimiento), but were for the "good of the people" (of course, that is not the way to do it, he was obviously wrong), so i think there is a diffrence.... beacause of the intension each one had (pinochet and allende).
    thats the way i feel.

    y bueno, no se como decir esto en inglés, pero jamás habrá reconciliación, sin verdad ni justicia.
  • chinobaezachinobaeza Posts: 2,489
    Max wrote:
    ok sorry for that, my mistake.... (my uncles were tortured and exiled by the way).
    my point is that the crimes commited during his goverment were not a policy of the state, like during the dictatorship, and the thefts you talk about were not for his own enrichement (enriquecimiento), but were for the "good of the people" (of course, that is not the way to do it, he was obviously wrong), so i think there is a diffrence.... beacause of the intension each one had (pinochet and allende).
    thats the way i feel.

    y bueno, no se como decir esto en inglés, pero jamás habrá reconciliación, sin verdad ni justicia.
    Doesn't matter...no hard feelings. And I tottally agree with you that " the crimes commited during his goverment were not a policy of the state, like during the dictatorship"
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