you stopped short of saying that bush caused the hurricane to divert attention from the war.
can you explain what responsabilities government has in natural disasters? in a disaster of this size; what could the government have done differently? especially after sending so much money to the tsunami victims. how much of the budget was spent trying to evacuate those who refused to leave? if the city was evacuated as ordered; the billions spent on post evacuation would have been spent on rebuilding.
when the government runs out of money it's because you don't want to pay higher taxes.
The responce after the hurricane was a crime and the parties responsible for that where local, state, and federal government officials and agencies. This is not some lame ass veiled attempt to blame Bush. Even he has admitted that the federal government's response to Hurricane Katrina was horrible. Secondly, correct me if I'm wrong but Hurrican Katrina occured before the tsunami. Our response to bring aid to the tsumani victims was incredible. Within 2 days we had troops and supplies halfway around the world to help those people yet it took FEMA 3 days to get the same into New Orleans.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Levees help, but so do the wetlands. The question is, how can we utilize both when often the strengthening of one leads to the weakening of the other?
closing MR. GO would be a step foward, also not expanding the city foolishly and establishing new building codes like those along other coastal areas which do flood frequently would be a step foward too I think. (we have some similar issues in Atlanta, they just aren't magnified by being below sea level. There also has to be a way to clean up water leaving the greater NO area watersheds so that the pollution does not further weaken the coastal wetlands. I believe we've discussed the pump infrastructure ad nausem
I don't believe the city allowing for building in 9th ward was a good idea in the first place.
I hate seeing stuff like this in general because it seeks to make that disaster cut and dried and or black and white. There are hundreds of causes and millions of effects. Mistakes were made at every single level from macro and city planning to individual citizens, at this point, it's rather counterproductive, I'm disapointed in Newt for making it a focus.
Getting people to stop behaving like victims is one thing, salt in the wounds is another.
I wonder if we went back to everyones response to Ivan the year before, we might see a better response from the citizen to the governmental level (except for the highway gridlock anyway which is probably another reason people stayed in town)
The various governments screwed up by severely underestimating the situation in the first place prior to the storm and the subsequent holding of the levee's in the hours just after the hurricane before they broke. By then it was too late, had they been on the ground immediately before the storm hit, lots of lives would have been saved. The money was there, the people were there, the failure of infrastructure came from management on down and we all know how people in high places love to pass the buck.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
How can you utilize a wetland? Well, you've already seen how wetlands can be utilized. Your city, for the most part, maximized the usage of wetlands over the usage of levees. Your town flooded. The wetlands served to make that flood less severe. So if you're happy with the results, stick with the wetlands.
Not exactly. We have less wetland protection now than we did when the suit was filed.
You could look at more advanced drainage systems and dikes.
We didn't send a committee to the Netherlands for nothing.
Well, at least I hope it wasn't for nothing.
And, the Netherlands use drainage system and dikes as well as natural barriers (we have wetlands, they have something I can't remember the name of right now).
But I best step out of this. It's a topic that, once started, is likely to get me banned.
I don't really get this "You shoulda left, dumbass" point of view. People worked their entire lives for what they owned, for a home that supported them and their family, and items that to them would never be able to be replaced. So you had two options, especially if you were poorer. You either got to leave everything behind, with the possibility of losing it to the storm or the looting. Or you can stay, hope that the storm is either exaggerated or by some miracle that it diverts its path. I don't argue that they should have left, I don't think even the katrina victims would argue that. I just think there was more to it than them being to uneduated and stupid to get out.
Your exactly right....and you know Ole Newt probably agrees...but there are so many in this country that don't have a clue...and want to lame blame..they eat this sh#t up....thus he'll get support for such narrow minded views.
ah, so you were expecting the government to replace your possessions? yet the new orleans residents are stupid for wanting the same thing?
i was expecting low interest government loans. that's what we get around here for disaster help. but then we're white.
the residents are stupid for not evacuating. if the city was evacuated the government could have waited until it was safe to re-enter and had time to come up with a disaster plan.
The responce after the hurricane was a crime and the parties responsible for that where local, state, and federal government officials and agencies. This is not some lame ass veiled attempt to blame Bush. Even he has admitted that the federal government's response to Hurricane Katrina was horrible. Secondly, correct me if I'm wrong but Hurrican Katrina occured before the tsunami. Our response to bring aid to the tsumani victims was incredible. Within 2 days we had troops and supplies halfway around the world to help those people yet it took FEMA 3 days to get the same into New Orleans.
the government should not have had to enter the area to begin with. there was a dumbass mayor telling people they didn't need to evacuate; but the bottom line is that the area was unsafe to enter when they did. you may be right about the dates. i thought katrina was the summer after the tsunami but i could be wrong. in any event; if the people would have evacuated; the money spent on trying to get in and save lives could have been used to help these people. instead the government had to buy boats and other equipment to get to these people. in the case of the tsunami; the water returned to the ocean. we had ground to walk on. not so with katrina. you have to see the situation for what it was. a water rescue in then a massive hazardous waste site.
One other thing I don't really get, what's the big deal with the money? I know you guys are going to hate it, but look at the Iraq War. People hardly stir when countless amounts of money are misplaced but when it comes to spending money to help out our fellow citizens, they can go straight to hell. what the hell?
One other thing I don't really get, what's the big deal with the money? I know you guys are going to hate it, but look at the Iraq War. People hardly stir when countless amounts of money are misplaced but when it comes to spending money to help out our fellow citizens, they can go straight to hell. what the hell?
Good luck finding it. If I come across hundred dollar bills stacked on a fucking palate, we'll split it 75/25. It woulda been 50/50 but i have a finders fee.
the government should not have had to enter the area to begin with. there was a dumbass mayor telling people they didn't need to evacuate;
Yeah, that one's completely untrue. There are plenty of ways to complain about Nagin - but he did tell people to evacuate; and he did it ahead of the curve.
in any event; if the people would have evacuated; the money spent on trying to get in and save lives could have been used to help these people. instead the government had to buy boats and other equipment to get to these people. in the case of the tsunami; the water returned to the ocean. we had ground to walk on. not so with katrina. you have to see the situation for what it was. a water rescue in then a massive hazardous waste site.
Good luck finding it. If I come across hundred dollar bills stacked on a fucking palate, we'll split it 75/25. It woulda been 50/50 but i have a finders fee.
Ok. But the point is, just because I'm not keen on spending money on more bad levies doesn't mean I'm keen on spending it on bad wars, either.
im a big believer that a lot of americans are really dumb. though im not sure it's lack of education and preparation that caused this... probly more so lack of money. not everyone can afford to fold up, drive cross country, and check into a hotel room for a week. these people took a chance and probaly would have been fine if those levees hadnt broken.
I am sure a lot of people have said this type of stuff before but people in New Orleans, and I remember seeing it on the news before the storm, knew that if a surge of level 3 or higher hit then the levees wouldn't hold. The local government is to blame for the catastrophe of those people being stranded. There are plans in place by local government all along the Gulf Coast for situations like this. They chose not to enact it. But the Federal Government doesn't get off the hook either. Their slow reaction when it was obvious the local government had dropped the ball made matters even worse. I think there is blame to go all around including the locals ignorance who wouldn't have gotten on the buses to evacuate had they enacted the plan that was in place.
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
Ok. But the point is, just because I'm not keen on spending money on more bad levies doesn't mean I'm keen on spending it on bad wars, either.
I was talking more of the rescue operations and rebuilding but regardless. We all know you're a greedy bastard ffg, so you need not respond (I say this in a joking manner, I refuse to use smilies. I hate them)
Ah, see, now you got me stuck being too literal. There was no question in the post you quoted. And the question you did quote was more a phrasing of the problem and less a direct question to you.
Ah, see, now you got me stuck being too literal. There was no question in the post you quoted. And the question you did quote was more a phrasing of the problem and less a direct question to you.
Fair enough....snarky answers withdrawn
Now, I do disagree with your "phrasing of the problem", however. The problem is that New Orleans is a city built in a bathtub. Narrowing the problem to levies or wetlands is going to preclude a lot of good solutions.
Yeah, that one's completely untrue. There are plenty of ways to complain about Nagin - but he did tell people to evacuate; and he did it ahead of the curve.
i recall seeing him on the tele telling people the city was safe while the federal government was telling them to evacuate.
you stopped short of saying that bush caused the hurricane to divert attention from the war.
can you explain what responsabilities government has in natural disasters? in a disaster of this size; what could the government have done differently? especially after sending so much money to the tsunami victims. how much of the budget was spent trying to evacuate those who refused to leave? if the city was evacuated as ordered; the billions spent on post evacuation would have been spent on rebuilding.
when the government runs out of money it's because you don't want to pay higher taxes.
it may have been after katrina hit, but it's still relavent
Feds To Probe Katrina Evacuee Blockade
Why Did Police Turn Back Fleeing New Orleans Residents?
(AP) Federal authorities will review last year's blockade of a Mississippi River bridge by armed police officers who turned back Hurricane Katrina evacuees trying to flee New Orleans......
looks like they tried to save some of that evacuation money, to me....
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
news flash: people die in natural disasters. thus the name DISASTER. was each life worth the $200K each it cost to save them?
Just out of curiosity... what is the price tag that you would put on your life, or your family's lives?
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Feds To Probe Katrina Evacuee Blockade
Why Did Police Turn Back Fleeing New Orleans Residents?
(AP) Federal authorities will review last year's blockade of a Mississippi River bridge by armed police officers who turned back Hurricane Katrina evacuees trying to flee New Orleans......
looks like they tried to save some of that evacuation money, to me....
i remember that now. i can't understand why they did that. they should be punished if they didn't have good cause but the government should not be blamed unless the government ordered it.
something kennedy said has always stuck with me. "ask not what your country can do for you; rather ask what you can do for your country".
america has become a people looking for hand-outs. the result has caused government to be in everyone's personal business. we complain about it while still asking for hand-outs. we can't have it both ways.
Just out of curiosity... what is the price tag that you would put on your life, or your family's lives?
i don't put a price tag on human life. humans are worth about 98 cents considering their 98% water and 2% dust. i know this sounds cruel but i'd rather go back to communities helping their neighbors and having government out of daily life then have government be such a big part of our lives. i can understand government intervention when it comes to disaster help but there should be a limit. we're blaming the government for a disaster it didn't create.
let's say i'm hit by lightening today; should the government compensate anyone for the loss? if so then who? and how much? i do nutritional research and honestly feel i'm on the brink of curing cancer. is my life worth more than anyone elses? i don't think so. i pay more in taxes than those people will make in a life time; does that make me worth more?
what price do you put on a human life? if that money could have cured hunger in the us was it worth sacrificing millions to save a few?
i don't put a price tag on human life. humans are worth about 98 cents considering their 98% water and 2% dust. i know this sounds cruel but i'd rather go back to communities helping their neighbors and having government out of daily life then have government be such a big part of our lives. i can understand government intervention when it comes to disaster help but there should be a limit. we're blaming the government for a disaster it didn't create.
let's say i'm hit by lightening today; should the government compensate anyone for the loss? if so then who? and how much? i do nutritional research and honestly feel i'm on the brink of curing cancer. is my life worth more than anyone elses? i don't think so. i pay more in taxes than those people will make in a life time; does that make me worth more?
what price do you put on a human life? if that money could have cured hunger in the us was it worth sacrificing millions to save a few?
If you want to change the way things are done, that's all well and good, and you can certainly work towards bringing that about. But for the moment, you and I and everyone else are paying for a Federal Emergency Management Administration. Since it's there, and they're taking our money, is it too much to ask that they manage emergencies?
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
i recall seeing him on the tele telling people the city was safe while the federal government was telling them to evacuate.
I think I know what you're talking about; and if I do, that is an area where I believe complaints are justified. Sometime after the storm (around when Rita was about to hit, I believe), Nagin was calling on citizens to return to the city ahead of the federal government's recommendation - and likely well ahead of common sense.
If you want to change the way things are done, that's all well and good, and you can certainly work towards bringing that about. But for the moment, you and I and everyone else are paying for a Federal Emergency Management Administration. Since it's there, and they're taking our money, is it too much to ask that they manage emergencies?
excellent point. which brings forth the question why tornado victims don't receive the same benefits. what about wildfire victims? the government opens the roads and offers low cost loans to them. you won't see the government giving trailers to these victims when their houses are blown away or burned. you also don't see this being done for hurricane victims in florida. so i ask; why don't all victims of natural disasters get equal treatment?
Comments
The responce after the hurricane was a crime and the parties responsible for that where local, state, and federal government officials and agencies. This is not some lame ass veiled attempt to blame Bush. Even he has admitted that the federal government's response to Hurricane Katrina was horrible. Secondly, correct me if I'm wrong but Hurrican Katrina occured before the tsunami. Our response to bring aid to the tsumani victims was incredible. Within 2 days we had troops and supplies halfway around the world to help those people yet it took FEMA 3 days to get the same into New Orleans.
closing MR. GO would be a step foward, also not expanding the city foolishly and establishing new building codes like those along other coastal areas which do flood frequently would be a step foward too I think. (we have some similar issues in Atlanta, they just aren't magnified by being below sea level. There also has to be a way to clean up water leaving the greater NO area watersheds so that the pollution does not further weaken the coastal wetlands. I believe we've discussed the pump infrastructure ad nausem
I don't believe the city allowing for building in 9th ward was a good idea in the first place.
I hate seeing stuff like this in general because it seeks to make that disaster cut and dried and or black and white. There are hundreds of causes and millions of effects. Mistakes were made at every single level from macro and city planning to individual citizens, at this point, it's rather counterproductive, I'm disapointed in Newt for making it a focus.
Getting people to stop behaving like victims is one thing, salt in the wounds is another.
I wonder if we went back to everyones response to Ivan the year before, we might see a better response from the citizen to the governmental level (except for the highway gridlock anyway which is probably another reason people stayed in town)
The various governments screwed up by severely underestimating the situation in the first place prior to the storm and the subsequent holding of the levee's in the hours just after the hurricane before they broke. By then it was too late, had they been on the ground immediately before the storm hit, lots of lives would have been saved. The money was there, the people were there, the failure of infrastructure came from management on down and we all know how people in high places love to pass the buck.
We didn't send a committee to the Netherlands for nothing.
Well, at least I hope it wasn't for nothing.
And, the Netherlands use drainage system and dikes as well as natural barriers (we have wetlands, they have something I can't remember the name of right now).
But I best step out of this. It's a topic that, once started, is likely to get me banned.
Hehe..ok. Then tear down the levies. Shit, leave half the town as-is now -- you'll get more wetlands than you know what to do with.
We'll see. The origninally proposed systems in the 70s resembled the Netherlands' system. But the wetlands were deemed more important.
i was expecting low interest government loans. that's what we get around here for disaster help. but then we're white.
the residents are stupid for not evacuating. if the city was evacuated the government could have waited until it was safe to re-enter and had time to come up with a disaster plan.
Why do you continue to ask me questions when you know you won't like the answer?
the government should not have had to enter the area to begin with. there was a dumbass mayor telling people they didn't need to evacuate; but the bottom line is that the area was unsafe to enter when they did. you may be right about the dates. i thought katrina was the summer after the tsunami but i could be wrong. in any event; if the people would have evacuated; the money spent on trying to get in and save lives could have been used to help these people. instead the government had to buy boats and other equipment to get to these people. in the case of the tsunami; the water returned to the ocean. we had ground to walk on. not so with katrina. you have to see the situation for what it was. a water rescue in then a massive hazardous waste site.
I'll take that money back too, thank you.
Was that supposed to be a period then? :cool:
Good luck finding it. If I come across hundred dollar bills stacked on a fucking palate, we'll split it 75/25. It woulda been 50/50 but i have a finders fee.
Ok. But the point is, just because I'm not keen on spending money on more bad levies doesn't mean I'm keen on spending it on bad wars, either.
I am sure a lot of people have said this type of stuff before but people in New Orleans, and I remember seeing it on the news before the storm, knew that if a surge of level 3 or higher hit then the levees wouldn't hold. The local government is to blame for the catastrophe of those people being stranded. There are plans in place by local government all along the Gulf Coast for situations like this. They chose not to enact it. But the Federal Government doesn't get off the hook either. Their slow reaction when it was obvious the local government had dropped the ball made matters even worse. I think there is blame to go all around including the locals ignorance who wouldn't have gotten on the buses to evacuate had they enacted the plan that was in place.
Pensacola '94
New Orleans '95
Birmingham '98
New Orleans '00
New Orleans '03
Tampa '08
New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest
New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest
Fenway Park '18
St. Louis '22
I was talking more of the rescue operations and rebuilding but regardless. We all know you're a greedy bastard ffg, so you need not respond (I say this in a joking manner, I refuse to use smilies. I hate them)
Fair enough....snarky answers withdrawn
Now, I do disagree with your "phrasing of the problem", however. The problem is that New Orleans is a city built in a bathtub. Narrowing the problem to levies or wetlands is going to preclude a lot of good solutions.
i recall seeing him on the tele telling people the city was safe while the federal government was telling them to evacuate.
i said the summer after the tsunami so how was i wrong? didn't 2005 follow 2004?
news flash: people die in natural disasters. thus the name DISASTER. was each life worth the $200K each it cost to save them?
it may have been after katrina hit, but it's still relavent
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/05/katrina/main1868140.shtml
Feds To Probe Katrina Evacuee Blockade
Why Did Police Turn Back Fleeing New Orleans Residents?
(AP) Federal authorities will review last year's blockade of a Mississippi River bridge by armed police officers who turned back Hurricane Katrina evacuees trying to flee New Orleans......
looks like they tried to save some of that evacuation money, to me....
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
why weren't they? Better that 200k was spent saving people than other stupid shit it could have been used for.
Just out of curiosity... what is the price tag that you would put on your life, or your family's lives?
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
i remember that now. i can't understand why they did that. they should be punished if they didn't have good cause but the government should not be blamed unless the government ordered it.
something kennedy said has always stuck with me. "ask not what your country can do for you; rather ask what you can do for your country".
america has become a people looking for hand-outs. the result has caused government to be in everyone's personal business. we complain about it while still asking for hand-outs. we can't have it both ways.
i don't put a price tag on human life. humans are worth about 98 cents considering their 98% water and 2% dust. i know this sounds cruel but i'd rather go back to communities helping their neighbors and having government out of daily life then have government be such a big part of our lives. i can understand government intervention when it comes to disaster help but there should be a limit. we're blaming the government for a disaster it didn't create.
let's say i'm hit by lightening today; should the government compensate anyone for the loss? if so then who? and how much? i do nutritional research and honestly feel i'm on the brink of curing cancer. is my life worth more than anyone elses? i don't think so. i pay more in taxes than those people will make in a life time; does that make me worth more?
what price do you put on a human life? if that money could have cured hunger in the us was it worth sacrificing millions to save a few?
Most definitely.
excellent point. which brings forth the question why tornado victims don't receive the same benefits. what about wildfire victims? the government opens the roads and offers low cost loans to them. you won't see the government giving trailers to these victims when their houses are blown away or burned. you also don't see this being done for hurricane victims in florida. so i ask; why don't all victims of natural disasters get equal treatment?