Obama says we need to "spread the wealth around"

digster

prytoj wrote:

If it takes me 10 minutes to wade through your point I'm not going to read it anymore.

But taking money from a group of people, and giving it to another group of people......

IS SOCIALISM

Your graphs perfectly define.....

SOCIALISM

just look at 'em.

Well, fine, answer these question:

1) How does someone get "a check in the mail for not doing anything and not paying taxes" as you put it if all of Obama's tax cuts and tax credit policies are, by definition for people paying taxes? Where the hell is the fantastic "check in the mail" that you get for being a citizen in Obama's plan? Tax cuts and tax credits require that someone be paying taxes for them to exist?
2) You think that someone's social surroundings (i.e. the infrastructure of their schools, etc.) have NOTHING to do with their ability to develop and harness potential?
3) Do you think poor people are all poor because they're dumb, weak, etc?

Sorry if it's taking a while to read through my posts. It's just that your points raise alot of problems and it takes a while to get through all of them.

And please don't come back at me with, "but....but...but it's SOCIALISM!" It's a weak argument and I think I've already shown why it's not socialism.

_

digster wrote:

OK...these are two extremely different viewpoints. First of all, you could've saved the time and said that you don't think that conditions matter. Despite the surroundings and social conditions people are born into, everyone has an equal shot at the 'American dream.' You see no differentiation between growing up in a tenement apartment in Bed-Stuy, with two parents making minimum wage because they can't get jobs anywhere else, and someone born on the Upper West Side who's a third-generation college student. You REALLY think the former child has the same opportunities to develop their skills, intelligence, and stamina then the latter? Of course it's not the case. Poverty is quite a bit more complicated than that; overcoming it is not "one of life's little challenges", like when you work on your jumpshot when trying to make the basketball team when you're just not good enough yet. Is it that hard to believe that when a student has the best opportunities in his or her development, that more often they will get the better schooling, the better job, the higher pay? And that that is a cycle that will continue indefinitely. You talk about Pell grants and Stafford loans; what if there's no college counselor in the school? What if there's no computer in the home? What if class sizes are 40-50, that don't allow for individual attention? Are you starting to see the problem here? Unless you except my premise, the only alternative is that the impoverished people in our country are 'defective', that they are not smart enough, good enough, or don't try hard enough. Pardon my language, but that is total and absolute crap.

I'd like to add that health has a significant impact on one's ability to "succeed" - and income is the primary predictor of health outcomes.

digster

pjalive21 wrote:

listen to this:

http://odeo.com/episodes/23444411-Obama-Tax-Plan-Back-To-Welfare-10-02-2008

breaks down his whole plan

Let's say for a minute that my computer is broken and without sound (which it is), and you give me the gist of it.

pjalive21

digster wrote:

Let's say for a minute that my computer is broken and without sound (which it is), and you give me the gist of it.

you dont have to have a job to take advantage of his plan you just have to be "looking" for a job or "attempting" to go to school

it goes into good detail, i hope you can listen to it at some point

_

prytoj wrote:

another piece of particularly insulting intellectual dishonesty to anyone who has overcome anything significant to improve themselves.

Thanks for pointing out the elitist point of view...how perversely ignorant.

everybody works very hard everyday, I can't believe you'd say that....

Wait a minute, you favor population control as prescribed by the W.H.O., kinda lilke David Rockerfeller.

Nevermind.

Okay folks... you heard it here first: everyone works hard every day! And THAT, my friend, is exactly the point, and why it's fair to "spread the wealth around".

digster

Got to go out, but I look forward to continuing this later.

_

pjalive21 wrote:

i see now why there is "Obamamania"

free handouts...greater welfare...dont pay taxes and get a refund check anyway...take from the rich, redistribute to the poor

shit, if i didnt have any morals i might be a deadbeat and join this Obama train

nah, i couldnt sink that low, i dont believe in Communism

I challenge you to "be a deadbeat" and live off welfare for a year or two and see how far it gets you.

But, unless you've walked a mile in the shoes of every single person you're judging, don't judge.

pjalive21

scb wrote:

I challenge you to "be a deadbeat" and live off welfare for a year or two and see how far it gets you.

But, unless you've walked a mile in the shoes of every single person you're judging, don't judge.

in Missouri it gets you an Escalade, free food, and a lot of jewelry...anything else you wanna know?

and thats not from personal experience either, its a fact from the old neighborhood i lived in growing up and continue to see today when i go back there to visit

if you come and visit you can find out for yourself because these people dont hold back in telling you they are working the system and cant wait for Obama to be president to take even greater advantage of the system

_

pjalive21 wrote:

in Missouri it gets you an Escalade, free food, and a lot of jewelry...anything else you wanna know?

and thats not from personal experience either, its a fact from the old neighborhood i lived in growing up and continue to see today when i go back there to visit

if you come and visit you can find out for yourself because these people dont hold back in telling you they are working the system and cant wait for Obama to be president to take even greater advantage of the system

I'm not asking for your judgement or observations. I'm saying you should personally experience it.

pjalive21

scb wrote:

I'm not asking for your judgement or observations. I'm saying you should personally experience it.

i probably should, could make more money than what i do now making an honest living

i might make an effort when Obama is president, it will be really easy then and not to mention more money

_

pjalive21 wrote:

i probably should, could make more money than what i do now making an honest living

i might make an effort when Obama is president, it will be really easy then and not to mention more money

Please do - and report back to us.

darthvedder81

If Obama wins a major milestone in the United State's slow trek towards Marxism will be reached. We've got nationalized banking (with more undoubtedly on the way). We'll soon have national health care. Then we'll nationalize energy and then lastly food (Somebody has to bring down Big Food after all). Half this country will continue to pay almost no income tax while the other half will be demonized as "fat cats" and asked to "pay their fair share."

darthvedder81

justam wrote:

It's better for everyone in America if we don't have a large number of people living in poverty.

Unless you started out in poverty and worked your way up, you don't know that you work harder than some poor person trying to feed his children with a low wage job. You just use that idea to justify your lack of compassion.

"Lack of compassion"

It's not the government's job to mandate "compassion". In fact, government redistribution isn't compassion at all-it's force and theft. True compassion involves the individual generously investing in the lives of other people. I trust the good intentions and generosity of the American people more than I do Washington bureaucrats.

pjfan020

prytoj...once again, isn't what the BUSH administration passed socialism? Distributing $700 billion dollars from my taxes to CEO types and big companies is socialism but I haven't heard Bush, Mccain, or any other republican bashed for being a socialist...i won't go on and add tons of details and interesting points like digster cause i know you don't have the patience or time to read them....acutally answer some opposing questions by digster instead of crying socialism.

Commy

pjalive21 wrote:

i see now why there is "Obamamania"

free handouts...greater welfare...dont pay taxes and get a refund check anyway...take from the rich, redistribute to the poor

shit, if i didnt have any morals i might be a deadbeat and join this Obama train

nah, i couldnt sink that low, i dont believe in Communism

the rich have been taking from the poor for decades. its not redistributing wealth so much as putting it back where it belongs.


When 1% of the world owns 40% of its resources, seems to be a problem. Add inflation, lack of increase in minumum wage since 1970 or so, Reagan's neoliberal (socialist) policies, and the resulting increase in the number of people below the pverty line-while CEO's are now making 500 times the salary of an average worker, and yeah, we definitely have a problem.


welath has been going up for decades, time to bring it back down where it belongs, into the hands of the people that actually do all the work and run this country.

Commy

darthvedder81 wrote:

If Obama wins a major milestone in the United State's slow trek towards Marxism will be reached. We've got nationalized banking (with more undoubtedly on the way). We'll soon have national health care. Then we'll nationalize energy and then lastly food (Somebody has to bring down Big Food after all). Half this country will continue to pay almost no income tax while the other half will be demonized as "fat cats" and asked to "pay their fair share."

what power do politicians have really? they can pass laws, but they can't really affect the population. from prisons, energy, to roads, to infrastructure in general, the power is in the hands of private companies- fascist institutions.

Sure we could keep this fascism, but I prefer freedom...but that's just me.

digster

digster wrote:

Well, fine, answer these question:

1) How does someone get "a check in the mail for not doing anything and not paying taxes" as you put it if all of Obama's tax cuts and tax credit policies are, by definition for people paying taxes? Where the hell is the fantastic "check in the mail" that you get for being a citizen in Obama's plan? Tax cuts and tax credits require that someone be paying taxes for them to exist?
.

So, as usual, the truth is much knottier than I thought it was originally. You can actually, in fact, receive a tax credit having not paid an federal income tax; I didn't think that was possible (obviously, you cannot get a tax cut). However, McCain says that the credits will be going to those who do not pay federal income taxes will get the money, while Obama says that it will be taxpayers who receive the tax credit.

So it's not as clear-cut as I thought; it just means one of the top two candidates for our nation's highest office is outright lying. Ugh. Factcheck, here I come.

u2pjfan

Obama is a clown!!

prytoj

digster wrote:

So, as usual, the truth is much knottier than I thought it was originally. You can actually, in fact, receive a tax credit having not paid an federal income tax; I didn't think that was possible (obviously, you cannot get a tax cut). However, McCain says that the credits will be going to those who do not pay federal income taxes will get the money, while Obama says that it will be taxpayers who receive the tax credit.

So it's not as clear-cut as I thought; it just means one of the top two candidates for our nation's highest office is outright lying. Ugh. Factcheck, here I come.

thanks for keeping an open mind on that.
An Obama presidency is unacceptable.

Staceb10

Gonzo1977 wrote:

Exactly.

90% of small business owners in the United States do not make more than $250,000 per year. That is a fact. Obama's tax credit will actually aid small business and not "harm" small business.

It doesn't take a degree in economics to figure this out.

To say that Obama is against small business is complete bullshit. If anyone would actually take the time to inform themselves on what Obama's plan actually is and stop listening to retoric drummed up by the shit smearing Republican base, they realize that these idiotic claims are about as absurd as the whole "Muslim" "Terrorist" crap that they're drumming in your ear as well.

Obama's plan is aimed at generating more money and easing the taxes on the "middle class"

Remember them? The Middle Class?

Apparently, the OP thinks that anyone not making over $250,000 per year is someone who just doesn't work hard enough.

The Middle Class is key to this economic crisis. The more money Middle Class families have to spend, the better.

While we're at it...We should try and give the Middle Class some jobs as well.

The owners may not pay themselves more than $250k a year but when you are a small business owner the income from the business is considered your income and that could be over 250k Hence the Joe the Plumber debate.