Universal Health Care

Collin

fanch75 wrote:

ffg wrote:

If we disagree, so be it. But only one of us is proposing a system that the other has to be party to.

mhttp://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5691021&postcount=23

I'm not proposing anything. This is the system I live in, I agree with it and I tried to explain how it works. I'm not forcing you to come live here, I'm not forcing that system on Americans either.

I'm satisfied with it, I hope you are satisfied with your system. Many Americans aren't, apparently. Some look for information, I tried to explain who the system here works.

farfromglorified

Collin wrote:

I'm not proposing anything. This is the system I live in, I agree with it and I tried to explain how it works. I'm not forcing you to come live here, I'm not forcing that system on Americans either.

I'm satisfied with it, I hope you are satisfied with your system. Many Americans aren't, apparently. Some look for information, I tried to explain who the system here works.

I'm neither satisfied with the US system nor am I impressed by the system you describe.

Collin

farfromglorified wrote:

My point isn't about Europeans criticizing America's healthcare system (or vice versa). My point is about people who advocate universal systems in which all people are required to participate who then have the gall to say things like "Well, I guess we disagree".

Look, someone's will is always imposed onto others. Always. The majority of this country, where I live, agrees with our system.

Yes, I'm sure there are people who disagree with it as I'm sure there are plenty of people who disagree with other stuff.

Nevertheless, it is what it is... and if it were up to me it wouldn't be this way at all, however, my ideas and ideals are not applicable to a lagre society, or at least not very realistic. Like I said, I'm quite satisfied with what we have... It's not perfect. I doubt any system is. If the majority of this country wanted privatized healthcare, I'd have to accept that too... and it looks like that might become a reality imposed by the EU.

Collin

farfromglorified wrote:

I'm neither satisfied with the US system nor am I impressed by the system you describe.

It was not my intention to impress, even if it was, I'd be a fool if I thought I could impress everyone.

farfromglorified

Collin wrote:

Look, someone's will is always imposed onto others. Always.

How so? If you had a system wherein doctors and patients operated freely based on their own personal values and desires, whose will is being imposed on whom?

The majority of this country, where I live, agrees with our system.

Good for your majority! Questionable for your minorities...

Yes, I'm sure there are people who disagree with it as I'm sure there are plenty of people who disagree with other stuff.

But what does disagreement matter when you have fun toys like laws and guns?

farfromglorified

Collin wrote:

It was not my intention to impress, even if it was, I'd be a fool if I thought I could impress everyone.

Fair enough.

Collin

farfromglorified wrote:

How so? If you had a system wherein doctors and patients operated freely based on their own personal values and desires, whose will is being imposed on whom?

Well, you'd come close to what I had in mind, but like I said, is such a system realistic?

Good for your majority! Questionable for your minorities...

Indeed.

But what does disagreement matter when you have fun toys like laws and guns?

I'm not sure I understand your question... edit: I sure I don't understand your question.

Collin

Question, in your system where doctors and patients operated freely based on their own personal values and desires, do the doctors take a mandatory Hippocratic Oath?

farfromglorified

Collin wrote:

Well, you'd come close to what I had in mind, but like I said, is such a system realistic?

Absolutely. It's no more unrealistic than any other overhaul of the dominant health care systems.

I'm not sure I understand your question... edit: I sure I don't understand your question.

My question was a commentary on the fact that the greater extent to which you're willing to exercise violence, the less the "disagreement" of others (and the principles from which it stems) are actually relevant to you. There are many people inside UHC systems who disagree with them, but they have no option to exercise their own disagreement as they are forced to participate in those systems.

farfromglorified

Collin wrote:

Question, in your system where doctors and patients operated freely based on their own personal values and desires, do the doctors take a mandatory Hippocratic Oath?

If such an oath were "mandatory", would it be a free system?

mert

know1 wrote:

Newsflash: In a UHC system, the healthcare fairy does not swoop down and sprinkle FREE healthcare on everybody. We all STILL PAY FOR IT. And the issue is more that some of us look and see how much the cost of everything goes up when government gets involved and realize it's not a smart solution. Just because you're not physically writing a check out of your checkbook for healthcare does not mean you are not paying for it.

Dear God! I know that - in fact, I pointed that out in my first post in this thread. Granted, it wasn't abundantly clear in that post, but I had mentioned it before. Can we be a little less condescending, please?

fanch75 wrote:

This is a great way to disagree with someone. Honest, not backing down, but saying "Hey, we disagree, what else can I say?" without throwing out an insult. Well done!

Thanks!

Pats54

blackredyellow wrote:

That sounds great in theory, but what happens to those who can't afford healthcare? Or those (like most of us) who could afford routine care, but if something major was needed (heart surgery, cancer treatement, etc.) couldn't afford it?

And most people aren't suggesting that the gov't would be "in charge of your health"... Just they would be in charge of paying for your healthcare. If there is one thing that our government is good at, is paying for things.

you
You say paying for cancer tratment or heart surgery wait until it is in the hands of some govt. b-crat. They may deem that since you are 65 years old with a heart condition that surgery is not needed.

What about people who lead an unhealthy lifestyle i.e. smoking, drugs, heavy alcohol. Should a lifelong smoker be put in the back of the line for cancer tratement? The govt may say yes. How long would a 70 year old wait to have needed surgery. NATIONAL HEALTHCARE WOULD BE A DISASTER!

Who are people in favor of this kidding. bunch of fucking whiners in this country who think the Govt needs to take care of them. The govt needs to stay off my back and get out of my way.

My Healthcare is great. The reason it is so high is because I am also subsidizing all the free loaders who show up in the ER for treatment.

mookie blaylock 10

mert wrote:

Can we be a little less condescending, please?

don't hold your breath waiting for that miracle, mert, or you may be in need of medical care yourself!

when this topic came up one time shortly after i joined here, i thought i would post what i thought was a rather benign statement that i was happy to live under a universal health care system because of my mother and father's health problems at the time. they were getting fantastic treatment and i can't say enough about the wonderful people in the hospital...the nurses, the doctors, everyone. they saved their lives.

i was answered by a "few people" here saying things along the lines of "how is that MY problem" and "they should have known better and prepared for things that may happen." how do you do that when you're trying to support a family on minimal wages that barely cover food, clothing and shelter? you can't. thank goodness they were able to get through without having to lose their home or make the choice to go without the procedures. thank goodness they didn't have the added stress of thinking about money.

i also mentioned that my father only had a fifth grade education because he grew up in the thirties at a time when it was more necessary for him to work than go to school so that he could help support his family. again "some people" were kind enough to insult a man who spent his working life as a janitor, doing volunteer work for his church in his spare time and even working weekends and extra hours to do maintenance on local softball fields so that the kids in the neighbourhoods could have good fields to play on and things to do to have fun.

later, when my mother got seriously ill, another poster (a candian, mind you) who i haven't here seen in ages...perhaps he was banned...had the audacity to say..."well, i'm glad my money is paying for your mother's problems"...and said it sarcastically. it was disgusting. i have to wonder if he'd still be so callous now that my mom has passed away, if he were still around here.

my dad is still living well and going strong, thanks to the wonderful people who helped him get through what were a few life threatening situations. he didn't have the stress of worrying about how he was going to pay for this and i think that was a great part of why he was able to pull through. it's sad that paper can be valued more than lives by some. it's sad that there are people out there who call themselves human who would call medical help a "business" or that it should be a money transaction. it's true we pay taxes when we buy things so that all can help all, but that's the stupidity of the world we live in. we're smart enough to create these technologies to help people, but stupid enough to allow the people who make these things to charge for it.

still, after all the insults and terrible things said, if these people had a situation where they were in need of help and it meant the difference between being ok and healthy and suffering, i would be there and so would many others to help them, even if they were unwilling to help us. it gives me hope that there are still plenty of good people out there to make up for those who don't get it.

baraka

unsung wrote:

And to those that want the government to manage UHC, go ask the Veterans of this country how their health care works for them.

How do explain this, then?
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?articleId=12683

And this:
http://www.californiahealthline.org/articles/2006/1/20/Department-of-Veterans-Affairs-Outperforms-Private-Health-Care-Facilities-in-Consumer-Satisfaction-Survey-Finds.aspx?topicID=49

And this:
http://www.houston.va.gov/pressreleases/News_20080103.asp

And this from the RAND Corp. Let's be objective folks :
http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB9100/index1.html

And this:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/348/22/2218

And this (the VA has the most brilliant medical records system I have ever seen or used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Health_Information_Systems_and_Technology_Architecture):
http://www.charlestonbusiness.com/pub/12_6/news/5992-1.html

And this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/21/AR2005082101073_pf.html

nobody

farfromglorified wrote:

There are many people inside UHC systems who disagree with them, but they have no option to exercise their own disagreement as they are forced to participate in those systems.

germany has a state-run, tax-paid health care system...if people don't like it, they can insure themselves privately...of course you need some cash for that...but if you haven't you can rely on (not too bad at all) government health care...

m.

dmitry

I am satisfied with the VA, only because it is free (for me). If I had to pay I would never go there.

They aren't very good at securing all of that private electronic information either.

farfromglorified

nobody wrote:

germany has a state-run, tax-paid health care system...if people don't like it, they can insure themselves privately...of course you need some cash for that...but if you haven't you can rely on (not too bad at all) government health care...

m.

This is fine and is the direction I hope and would expect America to take when it implement UHC. However, none of this changes the fact that Germans (and one day Americans) can not simply opt-out of the system if they find no value in it. All they can do is opt-out of receiving the benefits of the system. All are made to suffer the costs regardless of the individual benefits.

_

mookie blaylock 10 wrote:

don't hold your breath waiting for that miracle, mert, or you may be in need of medical care yourself!

when this topic came up one time shortly after i joined here, i thought i would post what i thought was a rather benign statement that i was happy to live under a universal health care system because of my mother and father's health problems at the time. they were getting fantastic treatment and i can't say enough about the wonderful people in the hospital...the nurses, the doctors, everyone. they saved their lives.

i was answered by a "few people" here saying things along the lines of "how is that MY problem" and "they should have known better and prepared for things that may happen." how do you do that when you're trying to support a family on minimal wages that barely cover food, clothing and shelter? you can't. thank goodness they were able to get through without having to lose their home or make the choice to go without the procedures. thank goodness they didn't have the added stress of thinking about money.

i also mentioned that my father only had a fifth grade education because he grew up in the thirties at a time when it was more necessary for him to work than go to school so that he could help support his family. again "some people" were kind enough to insult a man who spent his working life as a janitor, doing volunteer work for his church in his spare time and even working weekends and extra hours to do maintenance on local softball fields so that the kids in the neighbourhoods could have good fields to play on and things to do to have fun.

later, when my mother got seriously ill, another poster (a candian, mind you) who i haven't here seen in ages...perhaps he was banned...had the audacity to say..."well, i'm glad my money is paying for your mother's problems"...and said it sarcastically. it was disgusting. i have to wonder if he'd still be so callous now that my mom has passed away, if he were still around here.

my dad is still living well and going strong, thanks to the wonderful people who helped him get through what were a few life threatening situations. he didn't have the stress of worrying about how he was going to pay for this and i think that was a great part of why he was able to pull through. it's sad that paper can be valued more than lives by some. it's sad that there are people out there who call themselves human who would call medical help a "business" or that it should be a money transaction. it's true we pay taxes when we buy things so that all can help all, but that's the stupidity of the world we live in. we're smart enough to create these technologies to help people, but stupid enough to allow the people who make these things to charge for it.

still, after all the insults and terrible things said, if these people had a situation where they were in need of help and it meant the difference between being ok and healthy and suffering, i would be there and so would many others to help them, even if they were unwilling to help us. it gives me hope that there are still plenty of good people out there to make up for those who don't get it.

You're parents sound like good people and I'm glad they were able to get their medical care covered. (Of course, even if they weren't good people, they would still deserve good medical care.) I'm glad to know your dad's doing well and sorry about your mom's passing. Thanks for sharing with us.

_

Pats54 wrote:

you
You say paying for cancer tratment or heart surgery wait until it is in the hands of some govt. b-crat. They may deem that since you are 65 years old with a heart condition that surgery is not needed.

What about people who lead an unhealthy lifestyle i.e. smoking, drugs, heavy alcohol. Should a lifelong smoker be put in the back of the line for cancer tratement? The govt may say yes. How long would a 70 year old wait to have needed surgery. NATIONAL HEALTHCARE WOULD BE A DISASTER!

Who are people in favor of this kidding. bunch of fucking whiners in this country who think the Govt needs to take care of them. The govt needs to stay off my back and get out of my way.

My Healthcare is great. The reason it is so high is because I am also subsidizing all the free loaders who show up in the ER for treatment.

I think this (that I bolded) is the most important point. YOU have healthcare for YOURSELF and YOU are happy with it and so YOU don't think there needs to be a change (except maybe to not subsidize those damn free loaders).

But the problem is that having health coverage for YOU (or me) isn't good enough. EVERYONE needs health care. I have a hard time understanding why, even if we can't agree on the best way to do it, we can't at least agree on this.

mookie blaylock 10

scb wrote:

You're parents sound like good people and I'm glad they were able to get their medical care covered. (Of course, even if they weren't good people, they would still deserve good medical care.) I'm glad to know your dad's doing well and sorry about your mom's passing. Thanks for sharing with us.

very kind to say. thank you, scb.