Universal Health Care

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  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    Even so, a complete federal program would probably be a lot more effective and maybe even cheaper than the private insurance + federal last ditch measures which is what you have now.

    The question is whether any US candidate can touch the private health industry, and thus do anything other than expanding these band-aids in order to do something.

    The amount of people not getting coverage in the US is not a pretty number. Especially not if you add in those who have insufficient coverage.

    Peace
    Dan

    There would be no need for coverage if we eliminated the health insurance industry. It's a monopoly of the worst kind. Well second worst since taking it from a handful of price controlling entities and giving it to one - the government - would actually be worse.
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  • fanch75
    fanch75 Posts: 3,734
    The thing that confuses me the most about this debate is that (on this forum, at least), usually many or most of the posts are from non-Americans, telling Americans how to run the American system.
    Do you remember Rock & Roll Radio?
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Just informing you how the rest of the world do those things, and more successfully by most measures, and certainly more cost-effective. You may feel free to ignore it.

    And as for the monopoly, that can be used advantageous. A big buyer like a state can get some real leverage vis-a-vis the medical companies and keep those costs down as well. (Instead of pork-barreling and throwing money after them as you seem to do currently) The question is whether one values competition or full coverage the most, I guess.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

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  • blackredyellow
    blackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    fanch75 wrote:
    The thing that confuses me the most about this debate is that (on this forum, at least), usually many or most of the posts are from non-Americans, telling Americans how to run the American system.


    But the advice is coming from people who's countries have universal health care that works. And they are probably better able to say what works well, and what doesn't.
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    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
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  • fanch75
    fanch75 Posts: 3,734
    Wait....

    Europe & Canada are both full of white people, right?
    Do you remember Rock & Roll Radio?
  • Drew263
    Drew263 Birmingham, AL Posts: 602
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Here's the answer I usually hear:

    1) The rich...basically anyone but ME!!!!
    2) The government...you can't trust businesses they are evil, the government is the only organization on the planet that is 100% trust worthy and efficient.

    ;)

    I know of some that don't want it here. They're health professionals from Canada that moved here to actually make a decent wage and work in a decent healthcare environment. Imagine that.....
  • Drew263
    Drew263 Birmingham, AL Posts: 602
    blackredyellow wrote:
    But the advice is coming from people who's countries have universal health care that works. And they are probably better able to say what works well, and what doesn't.


    "that works"

    Kinda like in the UK? See the ambulance at the ER problems there? Or in Canada, where you could be on a waiting list for 6 months to get an MRI for a fucking brain tumor?

    If that's "working"..holy shit...we're fucked.
  • Kel Varnsen
    Kel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    know1 wrote:
    You don't think there would be government guidelines to determine who really needed that surgery? Surely the government wouldn't blindly pay for everything that every doctor orders.

    Or maybe it would, because government spending is way out of control.

    I am sure there are audits and procedures and everything to make sure no doctor is scamming the system, but I am pretty sure that sort of thing is done after the fact. But never have I or anyone I know ever had medical treatment held up while the government reviews to make sure it is necessary. Plus I am not sure why very many doctors (if any) would try to scam the system like that. I mean there is more than enough demand for doctors where you don’t need to start making up fake patients to pay your bills. Plus I can’t see the reward being that great compared to the risk. I mean doctors are pretty smart people by definition so I can’t see too many of them risking their medical license and never working again in exchange for a few extra fake patients.
  • Solat13
    Solat13 Posts: 6,996
    Drew263 wrote:
    I know of some that don't want it here. They're health professionals from Canada that moved here to actually make a decent wage and work in a decent healthcare environment. Imagine that.....

    Yep, almost 25% of physicians in this country were trained in another country and moved here to work for higher wages than they would receive from their countries of origin. One of the immediate problems that universal healthcare would have to combat would be keeping these doctors working here when more than likely their salaries are going to drop. Factor this in with the declining value of the US dollar on the world market and we could have a major problem finding doctors.
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  • Kel Varnsen
    Kel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    Drew263 wrote:
    "that works"

    Kinda like in the UK? See the ambulance at the ER problems there? Or in Canada, where you could be on a waiting list for 6 months to get an MRI for a fucking brain tumor?

    If that's "working"..holy shit...we're fucked.


    The people who wait 6 months in Canada for an MRI are people who have non-life threatening conditions. I don't think anyone who has a brain tumor who needs an MRI waits 6 months for one. Now the guy with a bad knee from an injury that hurts a bit to walk might have to wait that long, but that is entirely different. Plus I will take that any day over worrying that there are sick people out there who might be contagious (and could make me sick) with like TB or something but can’t get treatment because they don’t have the money to pay for it and can’t afford private health insurance.
  • blackredyellow
    blackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    Drew263 wrote:
    I know of some that don't want it here. They're health professionals from Canada that moved here to actually make a decent wage and work in a decent healthcare environment. Imagine that.....

    Like they weren't making a decent wage there...

    Look, I have no problem with someone moving to somewhere that they can make a better living, but you make it sound like they moved here so they afford to eat.

    http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Family_Physician_%2f_Doctor/Salary/by_Hospital_Setting
    http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_%2f_Doctors/Salary/by_Hospital_Setting
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    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
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  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,892
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    The people who wait 6 months in Canada for an MRI are people who have non-life threatening conditions. I don't think anyone who has a brain tumor who needs an MRI waits 6 months for one. Now the guy with a bad knee from an injury that hurts a bit to walk might have to wait that long, but that is entirely different. Plus I will take that any day over worrying that there are sick people out there who might be contagious (and could make me sick) with like TB or something but can’t get treatment because they don’t have the money to pay for it and can’t afford private health insurance.


    Waiting for 6 months for a MRI for anything is pretty ridiculous...it certainly shows that the system isn't be run correctly
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  • Kel Varnsen
    Kel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    Drew263 wrote:
    I know of some that don't want it here. They're health professionals from Canada that moved here to actually make a decent wage and work in a decent healthcare environment. Imagine that.....

    Actually the whole idea that there are a ton of doctors moving out of Canada because they can make more money in the US and other countries is actually hugely overblown. In 2006 there were only about 207 doctors who did that. More doctors who did that in the past actually returned to Canada in the same year.

    http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071025/doctors_canada_071025/20071025?hub=TopStories
  • blackredyellow
    blackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Waiting for 6 months for a MRI for anything is pretty ridiculous...it certainly shows that the system isn't be run correctly

    There is the argument that in our system someone with the same ailment won't be able to get an MRI at all, because they can't afford it.

    I'm not saying that universal health care is without it's problems, I guess it just comes down to what is more important to you.

    I used to hate the idea of universal health care, until my uncle's job dropped health benefits, and him and his family had to struggle to pay premiums of $1000+ a month for shitty coverage. Thank god they did pay those ridiculous premiums, because he was able to get most of his bypass surgery covered... But now with bad health history, if he ever gets dropped (or his premium goes up to the point he can't afford), then he will never be able to get insurance. Our system is fucked up for those who don't have employee provided health care.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,892
    blackredyellow wrote:
    There is the argument that in our system someone with the same ailment won't be able to get an MRI at all, because they can't afford it.

    I'm not saying that universal health care is without it's problems, I guess it just comes down to what is more important to you.

    I used to hate the idea of universal health care, until my uncle's job dropped health benefits, and him and his family had to struggle to pay premiums of $1000+ a month for shitty coverage. Thank god they did pay those ridiculous premiums, because he was able to get most of his bypass surgery covered... But now with bad health history, if he ever gets dropped (or his premium goes up to the point he can't afford), then he will never be able to get insurance. Our system is fucked up for those who don't have employee provided health care.


    It's painfully obvious that something is wrong with the system. I just think that Universal Health care is is the equivalent of tearing down your house and building a huge expensive mansion that requires staff to maintain when all you really wanted to do was knock a wall down and make the master bedroom larger...oh, and by the way, you paid for your new house with someone else's $.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • fanch75
    fanch75 Posts: 3,734
    cincybearcat wrote:
    It's painfully obvious that something is wrong with the system. I just think that Universal Health care is is the equivalent of tearing down your house and building a huge expensive mansion that requires staff to maintain when all you really wanted to do was knock a wall down and make the master bedroom larger...oh, and by the way, you paid for your new house with someone else's $.

    and you get Bob Huggins to coach your favorite team for you!
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  • mert
    mert Posts: 167
    fanch75 wrote:
    Wait....

    Europe & Canada are both full of white people, right?

    LOL! Mostly, yes, but Canada actually has the most racially diverse city in the world as well (Toronto)
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Waiting for 6 months for a MRI for anything is pretty ridiculous...it certainly shows that the system isn't be run correctly

    Is our system perfect? No, definitely not. It could certainly be run better. But if you have a flat tire, you don't buy a new car, right? ;)

    Personally I thank Kiefer Sutherland's grandfather every day for health care....

    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    Actually the whole idea that there are a ton of doctors moving out of Canada because they can make more money in the US and other countries is actually hugely overblown. In 2006 there were only about 207 doctors who did that. More doctors who did that in the past actually returned to Canada in the same year.

    http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071025/doctors_canada_071025/20071025?hub=TopStories

    True story! It's mostly for a year to pay off more university loans. I have several nurse friends, and a lot did this. Some stayed, because they fell in love, etcetera, but most came home after a year. They make a fair wage here, and doctors make a LOT of money, but they'll get paid more in the States because you have more of a doctor/nurse shortage than we do.
  • Kel Varnsen
    Kel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    cincybearcat wrote:
    It's painfully obvious that something is wrong with the system. I just think that Universal Health care is is the equivalent of tearing down your house and building a huge expensive mansion that requires staff to maintain when all you really wanted to do was knock a wall down and make the master bedroom larger...oh, and by the way, you paid for your new house with someone else's $.


    But to use that analogy as an example for universal health care, wouldn't the american system be an even bigger, more expensive house that is not as good to live in?
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,892
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    But to use that analogy as an example for universal health care, wouldn't the american system be an even bigger, more expensive house that is not as good to live in?


    Nope, the American analogy is currently, every has the house that they can afford, and some have no home at all.
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  • unsung
    unsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    Ok what domestic funding is going to be cut to pay for this domestic UHC program? Don't give me Iraq, that is foreign policy. What domestic is going to be cut?

    Tax tax tax tax tax tax tax, I have enough taxes. The only way I go along with paying for this is to eliminate welfare for those that are able bodied to work, eliminate funding for health care to non-citizens, eliminate bailing out mortgage companies and the people who signed for loans they knew they couldn't afford.

    And to those that want the government to manage UHC, go ask the Veterans of this country how their health care works for them.

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