Universal Health Care

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Comments

  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    Drew263 wrote:
    I know of some that don't want it here. They're health professionals from Canada that moved here to actually make a decent wage and work in a decent healthcare environment. Imagine that.....

    Like they weren't making a decent wage there...

    Look, I have no problem with someone moving to somewhere that they can make a better living, but you make it sound like they moved here so they afford to eat.

    http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Family_Physician_%2f_Doctor/Salary/by_Hospital_Setting
    http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_%2f_Doctors/Salary/by_Hospital_Setting
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,524
    The people who wait 6 months in Canada for an MRI are people who have non-life threatening conditions. I don't think anyone who has a brain tumor who needs an MRI waits 6 months for one. Now the guy with a bad knee from an injury that hurts a bit to walk might have to wait that long, but that is entirely different. Plus I will take that any day over worrying that there are sick people out there who might be contagious (and could make me sick) with like TB or something but can’t get treatment because they don’t have the money to pay for it and can’t afford private health insurance.


    Waiting for 6 months for a MRI for anything is pretty ridiculous...it certainly shows that the system isn't be run correctly
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    Drew263 wrote:
    I know of some that don't want it here. They're health professionals from Canada that moved here to actually make a decent wage and work in a decent healthcare environment. Imagine that.....

    Actually the whole idea that there are a ton of doctors moving out of Canada because they can make more money in the US and other countries is actually hugely overblown. In 2006 there were only about 207 doctors who did that. More doctors who did that in the past actually returned to Canada in the same year.

    http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071025/doctors_canada_071025/20071025?hub=TopStories
  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    Waiting for 6 months for a MRI for anything is pretty ridiculous...it certainly shows that the system isn't be run correctly

    There is the argument that in our system someone with the same ailment won't be able to get an MRI at all, because they can't afford it.

    I'm not saying that universal health care is without it's problems, I guess it just comes down to what is more important to you.

    I used to hate the idea of universal health care, until my uncle's job dropped health benefits, and him and his family had to struggle to pay premiums of $1000+ a month for shitty coverage. Thank god they did pay those ridiculous premiums, because he was able to get most of his bypass surgery covered... But now with bad health history, if he ever gets dropped (or his premium goes up to the point he can't afford), then he will never be able to get insurance. Our system is fucked up for those who don't have employee provided health care.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,524
    There is the argument that in our system someone with the same ailment won't be able to get an MRI at all, because they can't afford it.

    I'm not saying that universal health care is without it's problems, I guess it just comes down to what is more important to you.

    I used to hate the idea of universal health care, until my uncle's job dropped health benefits, and him and his family had to struggle to pay premiums of $1000+ a month for shitty coverage. Thank god they did pay those ridiculous premiums, because he was able to get most of his bypass surgery covered... But now with bad health history, if he ever gets dropped (or his premium goes up to the point he can't afford), then he will never be able to get insurance. Our system is fucked up for those who don't have employee provided health care.


    It's painfully obvious that something is wrong with the system. I just think that Universal Health care is is the equivalent of tearing down your house and building a huge expensive mansion that requires staff to maintain when all you really wanted to do was knock a wall down and make the master bedroom larger...oh, and by the way, you paid for your new house with someone else's $.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • fanch75fanch75 Posts: 3,734
    It's painfully obvious that something is wrong with the system. I just think that Universal Health care is is the equivalent of tearing down your house and building a huge expensive mansion that requires staff to maintain when all you really wanted to do was knock a wall down and make the master bedroom larger...oh, and by the way, you paid for your new house with someone else's $.

    and you get Bob Huggins to coach your favorite team for you!
    Do you remember Rock & Roll Radio?
  • mertmert Posts: 167
    fanch75 wrote:
    Wait....

    Europe & Canada are both full of white people, right?

    LOL! Mostly, yes, but Canada actually has the most racially diverse city in the world as well (Toronto)
    Waiting for 6 months for a MRI for anything is pretty ridiculous...it certainly shows that the system isn't be run correctly

    Is our system perfect? No, definitely not. It could certainly be run better. But if you have a flat tire, you don't buy a new car, right? ;)

    Personally I thank Kiefer Sutherland's grandfather every day for health care....

    Actually the whole idea that there are a ton of doctors moving out of Canada because they can make more money in the US and other countries is actually hugely overblown. In 2006 there were only about 207 doctors who did that. More doctors who did that in the past actually returned to Canada in the same year.

    http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071025/doctors_canada_071025/20071025?hub=TopStories

    True story! It's mostly for a year to pay off more university loans. I have several nurse friends, and a lot did this. Some stayed, because they fell in love, etcetera, but most came home after a year. They make a fair wage here, and doctors make a LOT of money, but they'll get paid more in the States because you have more of a doctor/nurse shortage than we do.
  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    It's painfully obvious that something is wrong with the system. I just think that Universal Health care is is the equivalent of tearing down your house and building a huge expensive mansion that requires staff to maintain when all you really wanted to do was knock a wall down and make the master bedroom larger...oh, and by the way, you paid for your new house with someone else's $.


    But to use that analogy as an example for universal health care, wouldn't the american system be an even bigger, more expensive house that is not as good to live in?
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,524
    But to use that analogy as an example for universal health care, wouldn't the american system be an even bigger, more expensive house that is not as good to live in?


    Nope, the American analogy is currently, every has the house that they can afford, and some have no home at all.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    Ok what domestic funding is going to be cut to pay for this domestic UHC program? Don't give me Iraq, that is foreign policy. What domestic is going to be cut?

    Tax tax tax tax tax tax tax, I have enough taxes. The only way I go along with paying for this is to eliminate welfare for those that are able bodied to work, eliminate funding for health care to non-citizens, eliminate bailing out mortgage companies and the people who signed for loans they knew they couldn't afford.

    And to those that want the government to manage UHC, go ask the Veterans of this country how their health care works for them.
  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Well, you might need a tax increase on top of the general savings. But then again, if you count in all the money you spend on private health insurances... What difference if you pay a health insurance company or over the tax bill? UHC gives coverage to all. Wouldn't it be worth it to pay a tax that you (and everyone else) actually could get a use for, as opposed to multi-billion army escapades around the globe?

    (Btw you have one of the lowest tax-levels internationally, that you more than make up through what you pay privately for things that people in other countries get for "free" through their taxes.)

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • ThecureThecure Posts: 814
    know1 wrote:
    You don't think there would be government guidelines to determine who really needed that surgery? Surely the government wouldn't blindly pay for everything that every doctor orders.

    Or maybe it would, because government spending is way out of control.

    i live in canada and i have never been refused a surgery that was needed. secondly, maybe i am wrong in this please forgive, but don't HMO also do the same thing. they can tell a doctor to not give this medication but this one that might be cheaper. they can decide if they want to pay for that kidney transplant or not. i had a friend who had insurance and he was refused a kidney transplant becuase teh HMO decided that it was not needed. that might just be one story but it was true.
    People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
    - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

    If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
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  • ThecureThecure Posts: 814
    unsung wrote:
    Ok what domestic funding is going to be cut to pay for this domestic UHC program? Don't give me Iraq, that is foreign policy. What domestic is going to be cut?

    Tax tax tax tax tax tax tax, I have enough taxes. The only way I go along with paying for this is to eliminate welfare for those that are able bodied to work, eliminate funding for health care to non-citizens, eliminate bailing out mortgage companies and the people who signed for loans they knew they couldn't afford.

    And to those that want the government to manage UHC, go ask the Veterans of this country how their health care works for them.

    what do you mean non-citizens, do you mean illigal immigrants? in canada if you don't have status the only way you can get to see a doctor is by going to emergency rooms. it will be the same as you have now.
    People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
    - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

    If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
    - Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Thecure wrote:
    i live in canada and i have never been refused a surgery that was needed. secondly, maybe i am wrong in this please forgive, but don't HMO also do the same thing. they can tell a doctor to not give this medication but this one that might be cheaper. they can decide if they want to pay for that kidney transplant or not. i had a friend who had insurance and he was refused a kidney transplant becuase teh HMO decided that it was not needed. that might just be one story but it was true.

    Don't mistake me for defending the insurance industry. I think it is the root of all of our problems.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Well, you might need a tax increase on top of the general savings. But then again, if you count in all the money you spend on private health insurances... What difference if you pay a health insurance company or over the tax bill? UHC gives coverage to all. Wouldn't it be worth it to pay a tax that you (and everyone else) actually could get a use for, as opposed to multi-billion army escapades around the globe?

    (Btw you have one of the lowest tax-levels internationally, that you more than make up through what you pay privately for things that people in other countries get for "free" through their taxes.)

    Peace
    Dan

    Right - they're both wrong in my opinion. Let's get rid of the government and health insurance involvement and the situation will be a lot better.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    unsung wrote:
    Ok what domestic funding is going to be cut to pay for this domestic UHC program? Don't give me Iraq, that is foreign policy. What domestic is going to be cut?

    Tax tax tax tax tax tax tax, I have enough taxes. The only way I go along with paying for this is to eliminate welfare for those that are able bodied to work, eliminate funding for health care to non-citizens, eliminate bailing out mortgage companies and the people who signed for loans they knew they couldn't afford.

    And to those that want the government to manage UHC, go ask the Veterans of this country how their health care works for them.


    I am not sure why people think they would have to pay more. In that link provided by the second poster showed a table where the US government spends considerably more per person on health care than the Canadian government and here everyone is covered. So if you could have a system where the government spends less per person, no one is paying crazy rates for private health insurance and malpractice insurance rates are lower because there are less lawsuits why would your taxes go up?

    And honestly I think my favorite thing about universal coverage is that no one has to worry about "can I afford it" if they need to see a doctor. That way a guy who is having mild chest pains can go to the doctor even if there is only a slim chance it might be something deadly, rather than waiting until the chest pains are unbearable and he decides to go and he has a fatal heart attack (where he could have been saved if he went in early). Or you know a guy over 50 can get an annual check up without having to worry about paying for it so that his doctor can catch any problems at a stage when they are still preventable (that on its own would probably bring healthcare costs down quite a bit since preventing a disease, or catching it early is usually way cheaper than treating it after the fact).
  • mertmert Posts: 167
    And honestly I think my favorite thing about universal coverage is that no one has to worry about "can I afford it" if they need to see a doctor. That way a guy who is having mild chest pains can go to the doctor even if there is only a slim chance it might be something deadly, rather than waiting until the chest pains are unbearable and he decides to go and he has a fatal heart attack (where he could have been saved if he went in early). Or you know a guy over 50 can get an annual check up without having to worry about paying for it so that his doctor can catch any problems at a stage when they are still preventable (that on its own would probably bring healthcare costs down quite a bit since preventing a disease, or catching it early is usually way cheaper than treating it after the fact).

    And best case scenario - by going early, the problem is caught earlier and fixed and/or treated earlier, therefore costing less.

    Some of us will just have to agree to disagree... This discussion was brought up on another forum I frequent, with some Americans being very anti-health care, and pretty much everyone else not understanding that.... It seems just as weird to me that some of you would want to have to pay for health care, as my opinions seem to you. My personal values and morals don't understand how a "developed" country could survive without the infrastructure to provide for its people... It also seems to me like people are buying into the whole American dream dogma when they think that health care isn't a great thing - but that's just my opinion, and it's probably just as heavily influenced by my Canadian liberal upbringing.

    Wow, but wordy there :) but to sum up: this is a cool discussion that probably will never get anywhere....
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    mert wrote:
    It seems just as weird to me that some of you would want to have to pay for health care, as my opinions seem to you.

    Newsflash: In a UHC system, the healthcare fairy does not swoop down and sprinkle FREE healthcare on everybody. We all STILL PAY FOR IT. And the issue is more that some of us look and see how much the cost of everything goes up when government gets involved and realize it's not a smart solution. Just because you're not physically writing a check out of your checkbook for healthcare does not mean you are not paying for it.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    unsung wrote:
    Ok what domestic funding is going to be cut to pay for this domestic UHC program? Don't give me Iraq, that is foreign policy. What domestic is going to be cut?

    Tax tax tax tax tax tax tax, I have enough taxes. The only way I go along with paying for this is to eliminate welfare for those that are able bodied to work, eliminate funding for health care to non-citizens, eliminate bailing out mortgage companies and the people who signed for loans they knew they couldn't afford.

    And to those that want the government to manage UHC, go ask the Veterans of this country how their health care works for them.

    How much do you (and your company) pay for your health insurance now?

    I sat down with my HR person last year to talk about insurance trying to decide if it was better for my wife and I to go with her work or mine. I don't know what the average is, but for my company, a decent family medical plan costs about $1,000 a month. The employee pays about 30% of that and the company pays about 70%.

    So yes, taxes would pretty much have to go up, but I can't imagine that they would go up $12,000 a year for a couple. My take home pay would probably go up if me and my company didn't have to pay for health insurance.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    So yes, taxes would pretty much have to go up, but I can't imagine that they would go up $12,000 a year for a couple. My take home pay would probably go up if me and my company didn't have to pay for health insurance.
    Would taxes go up that much though? I still think that if everyone had easy access to regular doctor visits health care costs would go down. I mean under the US system (and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong), if a person with no insurance walks into a county hospital complaining of a major headache, which is actually a stroke, is treated in a hospital, and dies after spending time in the hospital then since he is dead and has no insurance doesn't the government basically pays the bill for his care? Now if the same person had easy access to regular doctor visits and his risk factors could be identified early so that he doesn't end up having that stroke. I would think that a once a year or what ever visit to your GP for a check up would be way cheaper for the government to pay for than the time spent in the ER and possibly the ICU.

    Plus I am pretty sure that with a universal system, malpractice lawsuits go down. I mean if your family member dies in surgery and then after that you are still sent his bill for the doctor fees, you might be pissed off and call a lawyer. But if you don't have to worry about paying out of pocket for the surgery, you are probably a lot less likely to be pissed off. That means a lot less judges and other court staff freed up to deal with other issues.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    How much do you (and your company) pay for your health insurance now?

    I sat down with my HR person last year to talk about insurance trying to decide if it was better for my wife and I to go with her work or mine. I don't know what the average is, but for my company, a decent family medical plan costs about $1,000 a month. The employee pays about 30% of that and the company pays about 70%.

    So yes, taxes would pretty much have to go up, but I can't imagine that they would go up $12,000 a year for a couple. My take home pay would probably go up if me and my company didn't have to pay for health insurance.

    This is partially why I believe that we could just pay for healthcare ourselves and keep the government bureaucracy out of it. The extra income that is being spent now on supporting the insurance industry's infrastructure could be in our pockets to pay for our healthcare. Why transfer that extra money to the government's infrastructure?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • fanch75fanch75 Posts: 3,734
    mert wrote:
    Wow, but wordy there :) but to sum up: this is a cool discussion that probably will never get anywhere....

    This is a great way to disagree with someone. Honest, not backing down, but saying "Hey, we disagree, what else can I say?" without throwing out an insult. Well done!
    Do you remember Rock & Roll Radio?
  • it's always the same people that are against helping others when this topic comes up. at least you count on them for that. greed and ignoring those who need help...oh, what a life filled with bliss it must be.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    it's always the same people that are against helping others when this topic comes up. at least you count on them for that. greed and ignoring those who need help...oh, what a life filled with bliss it must be.

    What are you talking about? Perhaps some arguing against it are doing so because they believe there is a better solution that will help more people. Greed has nothing to do with it for me.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,524
    it's always the same people that are against helping others when this topic comes up. at least you count on them for that. greed and ignoring those who need help...oh, what a life filled with bliss it must be.


    Yep, that's exactly what it's all about. Jesus, the drama of some people.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    know1 wrote:
    This is partially why I believe that we could just pay for healthcare ourselves and keep the government bureaucracy out of it. The extra income that is being spent now on supporting the insurance industry's infrastructure could be in our pockets to pay for our healthcare. Why transfer that extra money to the government's infrastructure?

    I just see that as heading in the wrong direction... Right or wrong, If people have to pay large sums of money for tests or whatever, A LOT of them just won't do it, and end up with larger problems down the road. Even with health savings accounts and things like that, it still comes down to a financial decision on whether to have a procedure, instead of a health decision.

    If the average person had occasional minor stomach pain, and the doctor advised them to undergo a few tests that were going to cost a couple thousand dollars, how many do you think would do it? Most of us would just say that the pain isn't that bad and deal with it. Then two years later, we find out we have stomach cancer that could have been treated much cheaper then. Now who pays for this incredibly costly treatment?

    And like I mentioned before, the idea of catastrophic insurance would be an administrative mess as well.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • fanch75fanch75 Posts: 3,734
    it's always the same people that are against helping others when this topic comes up. at least you count on them for that. greed and ignoring those who need help...oh, what a life filled with bliss it must be.

    I don't know you or what you've done to help others, but I would suggest doing a self-check before tossing out insults like that.

    The reason I say that is I'm not sure if compassion or helping others is defined as simply stating, "Those people over there need to pay for healthcare for these people over here." Tossing the responsibility someone else's way may be considered a bit selfish, as well.

    Again, I don't know you or if you've helped others, so I apologize if this doesn't apply to you. I just get annoyed when people get on a high moral horse and feeling so great about their own morals because they favor nationalized healthcare.
    Do you remember Rock & Roll Radio?
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    I just see that as heading in the wrong direction... Right or wrong, If people have to pay large sums of money for tests or whatever, A LOT of them just won't do it, and end up with larger problems down the road. Even with health savings accounts and things like that, it still comes down to a financial decision on whether to have a procedure, instead of a health decision.

    If the average person had occasional minor stomach pain, and the doctor advised them to undergo a few tests that were going to cost a couple thousand dollars, how many do you think would do it? Most of us would just say that the pain isn't that bad and deal with it. Then two years later, we find out we have stomach cancer that could have been treated much cheaper then. Now who pays for this incredibly costly treatment?

    And like I mentioned before, the idea of catastrophic insurance would be an administrative mess as well.

    Just realize this - WE'RE ALL PAYING FOR ALL OF THOSE THINGS ALREADY.

    The medical industry and the health insurance industry aren't donating things like those thousand dollar tests. PLUS - we're paying for the infrastructure and salaries of the health insurance industry.

    I truly believe that through a combination of increased salaries and income (due to not having to pay health insurance premiums) and the reduction of the monopoly and fixed cost pricing, plus the cost of paying for the health insurance industry, that health care costs will be lower and more reasonable for everyone.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Double Post
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    I live in a country that has one of the best healthcare systems in the world and has the highest-quality medical care.

    Healthcare insurance is a part of the our social security system. To benefit you must join a health insurance fund 'group'. Most of these are linked to religious groups or political parties, however, there is little difference because reimbursement rates are fixed by the government.

    You indeed pay a some of money, which is directly deducted from your salery. This is part of our social security system.

    You do have cover the entire cost, however, up to 75% is reimbursed.

    You do not have to wait if you need immediate medical care. You just call an ambulance (if necessary) and it takes you to the nearest hospital or to a specialist who is most suited, for example a burn centre.

    You can also opt for additional (private) insurance.

    I would not want it any other way. The waiting list is definitely not an issue here. If you need it, you'll get it, usually within days. It's definitely not a perfect system, I don't think a perfect system exists. But it seems to be a very good one, so good people from other countries are coming here, often people from country that do have waiting lists. It's cheap (even with travel costs added) and it's of high quality. I don't mind paying for it, neither do my parents or anyone I know.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


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