My point was, that even just for the sake of arguing,as far as who is to blame for the rooto problems, theres no real answer. Its a "which came first the chicken or the egg" situation.
My thoughts on it are that bombing or taking out relevant social structures to weaken the infrastructure of an already imbalanced country isnt a war crime, its just good strategy. When you intentionally kill civilians just for the sake of killing them, with no other meritable purpose, thats a war crime. Thats terrorism. There is a difference between "war" and "terrorism", and the rules of engagement are polar opposites.
Why not discuss or brain strorm how to remedy the situation rather than categorize or spend energy figuring out "who to blame"? Im honestly not informed enough to offer anything even remotely resembling a workable idea on how to fix them. Sometimes, I think the best route WE as outsiders could take is to just say to hell with them, and let them kill each other off. But, unfortunately, thats not a viable option either.
I also wonder how many of you "side with palestine" just because it means NOT siding with the USA.
Palestinian Death Toll Rises as Israel Pushes into Gaza
By Donald Macintyre
At least 20 Palestinians were believed dead, dozens more were wounded and an Israeli soldier was killed yesterday as Israel moved in to reoccupy a swath of the northern Gaza Strip for the first time since its forces and settlers pulled out 11 months ago.
The incursion precipitated the heaviest fighting since Israeli forces converged on Gaza eight days ago in response to the abduction of the 19-year-old army corporal Gilad Shalit and the firing of Qassam rockets.
In the northern Gaza Strip, six people were killed and dozens wounded in what the army said had been three separate aerial strikes aimed at gunmen.
Elsewhere, Palestinian sources said that eight people, including civilians, were among victims of separate attacks, at least one of whom had been killed by an unmanned aerial drone. Five Palestinian militants were later killed in two missile strikes on cars.
The Israeli soldier died after being shot by a Palestinian sniper in a Beit Lahiya house taken over by his unit. Said Siyam, the Palestinian Interior Minister and Hamas leader, last night called on security service personnel fulfill their "duty to stand up to this aggression and cowardly Zionist invasion".
Amir Peretz, Israel's Defence Minister, insisted yesterday: "We have no intention of drowning in the Gaza swamp." He said later: "Return Gilad alive and healthy, stop firing rockets and we will return our soldiers to their bases."
Arab states yesterday called on the UN Security Council to demand that Israeli forces immediately withdraw from Gaza, but France and the US criticised their proposed resolution as unbalanced.
With little sign of a breakthrough in the continuing international diplomatic efforts to broker a solution to the crisis, the fighting between a heavily armoured Israeli incursion force with air support and militants in the northern Strip was the most serious since the disengagement from Gaza ordered by Ariel Sharon last August.
Two other Hamas gunmen, among many who converged on the area with anti-tank and other missiles, were killed in an earlier incident in northern Gaza. And two Palestinians were killed in a separate Israeli air strike outside the southern Gaza town of Khan Yunis. The Israeli military said that both had been militants seeking to attack its forces while Palestinian sources said that one had been a civilian.
But the heaviest machine gun fire and most casualties were in western Beit Lahiya as Israeli forces, with tanks, armoured vehicles, drones and helicopter gunships, sought to secure control of the north-west corner of the Gaza Strip, a sector bounded by five kilometres of the northern border and about the same length of the Mediterranean coast. The area includes the ruins of the three northernmost former Jewish settlements abandoned last August and the Atatra district of Beit Lahiya.
Although most of the dead were militants, one civilian who was killed was Mohammed al-Atta, 25. His uncle, Abdul Ahmed al-Atta, 34, a taxi driver, said he had been at home with his nephew, wife and children when a tank fired at the house. Mr Atta, his shirt caked with blood from carrying his nephew to the ambulance, said: "They targeted our house; there was shooting and then I saw my nephew on the ground. There was a tank 100 metres away. We are civilians and there was no resistance in the area at the time."
He added that the Israeli forces had entered the area at about 7am, advancing through orchards rather than using the main streets.
Mr Atta said there had been a long delay after he called an ambulance, which he understood was because Palestinian liaison officers had been unable to co-ordinate safe passage with the Israeli military for emergency vehicles through the area and said he was obliged to telephone a friend in the Red Cross before the co-ordination could take place.
His nephew died on the way to hospital. The army said it had not been able to verify the incident. A group of relatives and friends stormed the ambulancemen's quarters shouting that they had received calls telling them that ambulances had still not arrived to pick up two other dead neighbours and several wounded.
There was no immediate confirmation of the civilian deaths in Atatra. Ambulances were forced to wait near the American School in Atatra for clearance as heavy machine-gun fire from Israeli armoured vehicles, as well as semi-automatic gunfire from militants, sounded across the district.
Later, mourners for the militants who marched through Gaza City were told through a loudspeaker that there would be a "response from Hamas to what Israel is doing."
With Israel still rejecting any suggestion of a prisoner exchange to secure the release of Cpl Shalit, the captured soldier's father Noam said: "In the end, it will be necessary to pay a price for Gilad's freedom. I don't understand why the government is delaying negotiations on this price."
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
My point was, that even just for the sake of arguing,as far as who is to blame for the rooto problems, theres no real answer. Its a "which came first the chicken or the egg" situation.
what came first in this intifada was sharon marching into the 3rd holiest site in islam w/ 1,000 armed men
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I was gonna say the same thing after reading all these posts!!!! Isreal seems to be the main ingredient to 9/11!!!!
is there something you disagree with?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
My view is Isreal post 9/11 marched into Palestine and used zionism type actions and took over land lived on by inocent civilians. As a result tensions mounted and the middle east became unstable resulting in terroists blowing up NYC for the sake of us supporting those fuckers.....Thats all! It seems to work as a theory. No?
My view is Isreal post 9/11 marched into Palestine and used zionism type actions and took over land lived on by inocent civilians. As a result tensions mounted and the middle east became unstable resulting in terroists blowing up NYC for the sake of us supporting those fuckers.....Thats all! It seems to work as a theory. No?
ok, my mistake, your reply to one of my threads and me misreading your reply in this thread made me think you were saying something else. i thought you were saying you think israel is the main ingredient (as in were physically behind) 9/11 based on what you've read in the thread.
i think that would be a large part of it, yes
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
ok, my mistake, your reply to one of my threads and me misreading your reply in this thread made me think you were saying something else. i thought you were saying you think israel is the main ingredient (as in were physically behind) 9/11 based on what you've read in the thread.
i think that would be a large part of it, yes
I think we see it the same way.....I'm kind of lost with your post. Anyway, I think the tensions in the middle east can easily be pointed back at Isreal.
oh sure, I bet they're all giggles about it. its so much fun when you feel you need to fire a rocket to defend yourself.
i wonder if they high five each other like those 5 israelis on top of that van 9/11?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
The palestinians started this incursion...what you reap is what you sow
This incursion? Well, who started this whole conflict?
Let's ask the leaders of the Zionist movement:
David Ben-Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel: "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: they think we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there."
Ahad Ha'am, writing in "Truth from Eretz Israel": From abroad we are accustomed to believing that the Arabs are all desert savages, like donkeys, who neither see nor understand what goes on around them. But this is a big mistake... The Arabs, and especially those in the cities, understand our deeds and our desires in Eretz Israel, but they keep quiet and pretend not to understand, since they do not see our present activities as a threat to their future... However, if the time comes when the life of our people in Eretz Israel develops to the point of encroaching upon the native population, they will not easily yield their place.
Vladimir Jabotinsky: "(Arabs) look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux looked upon his prairie. To think that the Arabs will voluntarily consent to the realization of Zionism in return for the cultural and economic benefits we can bestow on them is infantile."
Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel 1999-2001: "If I were a Palestinian at the right age, I would have joined one of the terrorist organizations at a certain stage."
im happy my tax dollars support israel and zionism.
so you're happy that your money goes to a foriegn government and their state-sponsored terrorism, rather than something like education or healthcare or something beneficial in this country?
i'm more a fan of popular bands.. like the bee-gees, pearl jam
so you're happy that your money goes to a foriegn government and their state-sponsored terrorism, rather than something like education or healthcare or something beneficial in this country?
I dont believe in socialized medicine...
And id like to see it go to educaton sure, but the U.S support of Israel is a huge priority imo.
And id like to see it go to educaton sure, but the U.S support of Israel is a huge priority imo.
but moreso a priority than education?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Israel-Palestine conflict is a very critical issue to the balance of the world. In my opinon it contributes largely to the growing terrorist movements in Islam. US's unwavering support for Israel then makes it, in the eyes of these barbaric terrorists a legitimate target.
Israel, certainly is a country which commits war crimes. It breached more UN resolutions than Iraq did and yet it retains the support of the US.
The violence is a vicious circle and to be honest I'm fed up of people who claim 'they started this, they started that, blah blah blah'. To be honest it reminds me of when me and my sister had arguments when we were 5 or 6. Someone, needs to take the 1st step to stop this cycle and as the sovereign state and occupier this undoubtedly has to be Israel. A two state solution is the only viable conclusion if there is to be peace in the area.
Is this realistic? NO, Israel have the unwavering (financial and diplomatic) support of the US, while this continues they won't feel the need to compromise. The US govt needs to do pinch Israel into making concessions if this happens then there might just might be a stabel cease fire and eventually a two state solution will be possible.
Comments
this, which was quickly rammed down the memory hole, happened first:
"Beach strike shakes Hamas cease-fire"
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/09/mideast/
The beach bombing was quickly forgotten, world cups on.
Id love to leave it in Israels hands...
My point was, that even just for the sake of arguing,as far as who is to blame for the rooto problems, theres no real answer. Its a "which came first the chicken or the egg" situation.
My thoughts on it are that bombing or taking out relevant social structures to weaken the infrastructure of an already imbalanced country isnt a war crime, its just good strategy. When you intentionally kill civilians just for the sake of killing them, with no other meritable purpose, thats a war crime. Thats terrorism. There is a difference between "war" and "terrorism", and the rules of engagement are polar opposites.
Why not discuss or brain strorm how to remedy the situation rather than categorize or spend energy figuring out "who to blame"? Im honestly not informed enough to offer anything even remotely resembling a workable idea on how to fix them. Sometimes, I think the best route WE as outsiders could take is to just say to hell with them, and let them kill each other off. But, unfortunately, thats not a viable option either.
I also wonder how many of you "side with palestine" just because it means NOT siding with the USA.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
Palestinian Death Toll Rises as Israel Pushes into Gaza
By Donald Macintyre
At least 20 Palestinians were believed dead, dozens more were wounded and an Israeli soldier was killed yesterday as Israel moved in to reoccupy a swath of the northern Gaza Strip for the first time since its forces and settlers pulled out 11 months ago.
The incursion precipitated the heaviest fighting since Israeli forces converged on Gaza eight days ago in response to the abduction of the 19-year-old army corporal Gilad Shalit and the firing of Qassam rockets.
In the northern Gaza Strip, six people were killed and dozens wounded in what the army said had been three separate aerial strikes aimed at gunmen.
Elsewhere, Palestinian sources said that eight people, including civilians, were among victims of separate attacks, at least one of whom had been killed by an unmanned aerial drone. Five Palestinian militants were later killed in two missile strikes on cars.
The Israeli soldier died after being shot by a Palestinian sniper in a Beit Lahiya house taken over by his unit. Said Siyam, the Palestinian Interior Minister and Hamas leader, last night called on security service personnel fulfill their "duty to stand up to this aggression and cowardly Zionist invasion".
Amir Peretz, Israel's Defence Minister, insisted yesterday: "We have no intention of drowning in the Gaza swamp." He said later: "Return Gilad alive and healthy, stop firing rockets and we will return our soldiers to their bases."
Arab states yesterday called on the UN Security Council to demand that Israeli forces immediately withdraw from Gaza, but France and the US criticised their proposed resolution as unbalanced.
With little sign of a breakthrough in the continuing international diplomatic efforts to broker a solution to the crisis, the fighting between a heavily armoured Israeli incursion force with air support and militants in the northern Strip was the most serious since the disengagement from Gaza ordered by Ariel Sharon last August.
Two other Hamas gunmen, among many who converged on the area with anti-tank and other missiles, were killed in an earlier incident in northern Gaza. And two Palestinians were killed in a separate Israeli air strike outside the southern Gaza town of Khan Yunis. The Israeli military said that both had been militants seeking to attack its forces while Palestinian sources said that one had been a civilian.
But the heaviest machine gun fire and most casualties were in western Beit Lahiya as Israeli forces, with tanks, armoured vehicles, drones and helicopter gunships, sought to secure control of the north-west corner of the Gaza Strip, a sector bounded by five kilometres of the northern border and about the same length of the Mediterranean coast. The area includes the ruins of the three northernmost former Jewish settlements abandoned last August and the Atatra district of Beit Lahiya.
Although most of the dead were militants, one civilian who was killed was Mohammed al-Atta, 25. His uncle, Abdul Ahmed al-Atta, 34, a taxi driver, said he had been at home with his nephew, wife and children when a tank fired at the house. Mr Atta, his shirt caked with blood from carrying his nephew to the ambulance, said: "They targeted our house; there was shooting and then I saw my nephew on the ground. There was a tank 100 metres away. We are civilians and there was no resistance in the area at the time."
He added that the Israeli forces had entered the area at about 7am, advancing through orchards rather than using the main streets.
Mr Atta said there had been a long delay after he called an ambulance, which he understood was because Palestinian liaison officers had been unable to co-ordinate safe passage with the Israeli military for emergency vehicles through the area and said he was obliged to telephone a friend in the Red Cross before the co-ordination could take place.
His nephew died on the way to hospital. The army said it had not been able to verify the incident. A group of relatives and friends stormed the ambulancemen's quarters shouting that they had received calls telling them that ambulances had still not arrived to pick up two other dead neighbours and several wounded.
There was no immediate confirmation of the civilian deaths in Atatra. Ambulances were forced to wait near the American School in Atatra for clearance as heavy machine-gun fire from Israeli armoured vehicles, as well as semi-automatic gunfire from militants, sounded across the district.
Later, mourners for the militants who marched through Gaza City were told through a loudspeaker that there would be a "response from Hamas to what Israel is doing."
With Israel still rejecting any suggestion of a prisoner exchange to secure the release of Cpl Shalit, the captured soldier's father Noam said: "In the end, it will be necessary to pay a price for Gilad's freedom. I don't understand why the government is delaying negotiations on this price."
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
what came first in this intifada was sharon marching into the 3rd holiest site in islam w/ 1,000 armed men
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I was gonna say the same thing after reading all these posts!!!! Isreal seems to be the main ingredient to 9/11!!!!
is there something you disagree with?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
My view is Isreal post 9/11 marched into Palestine and used zionism type actions and took over land lived on by inocent civilians. As a result tensions mounted and the middle east became unstable resulting in terroists blowing up NYC for the sake of us supporting those fuckers.....Thats all! It seems to work as a theory. No?
ok, my mistake, your reply to one of my threads and me misreading your reply in this thread made me think you were saying something else. i thought you were saying you think israel is the main ingredient (as in were physically behind) 9/11 based on what you've read in the thread.
i think that would be a large part of it, yes
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I think we see it the same way.....I'm kind of lost with your post. Anyway, I think the tensions in the middle east can easily be pointed back at Isreal.
oh sure, I bet they're all giggles about it. its so much fun when you feel you need to fire a rocket to defend yourself.
i wonder if they high five each other like those 5 israelis on top of that van 9/11?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
This incursion? Well, who started this whole conflict?
Let's ask the leaders of the Zionist movement:
David Ben-Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel: "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: they think we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there."
Ahad Ha'am, writing in "Truth from Eretz Israel": From abroad we are accustomed to believing that the Arabs are all desert savages, like donkeys, who neither see nor understand what goes on around them. But this is a big mistake... The Arabs, and especially those in the cities, understand our deeds and our desires in Eretz Israel, but they keep quiet and pretend not to understand, since they do not see our present activities as a threat to their future... However, if the time comes when the life of our people in Eretz Israel develops to the point of encroaching upon the native population, they will not easily yield their place.
Vladimir Jabotinsky: "(Arabs) look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux looked upon his prairie. To think that the Arabs will voluntarily consent to the realization of Zionism in return for the cultural and economic benefits we can bestow on them is infantile."
Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel 1999-2001: "If I were a Palestinian at the right age, I would have joined one of the terrorist organizations at a certain stage."
so you're happy that your money goes to a foriegn government and their state-sponsored terrorism, rather than something like education or healthcare or something beneficial in this country?
I dont believe in socialized medicine...
And id like to see it go to educaton sure, but the U.S support of Israel is a huge priority imo.
but moreso a priority than education?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Israel, certainly is a country which commits war crimes. It breached more UN resolutions than Iraq did and yet it retains the support of the US.
The violence is a vicious circle and to be honest I'm fed up of people who claim 'they started this, they started that, blah blah blah'. To be honest it reminds me of when me and my sister had arguments when we were 5 or 6. Someone, needs to take the 1st step to stop this cycle and as the sovereign state and occupier this undoubtedly has to be Israel. A two state solution is the only viable conclusion if there is to be peace in the area.
Is this realistic? NO, Israel have the unwavering (financial and diplomatic) support of the US, while this continues they won't feel the need to compromise. The US govt needs to do pinch Israel into making concessions if this happens then there might just might be a stabel cease fire and eventually a two state solution will be possible.