Morality

mammasan

redrock wrote:

Mammasan.. though I believe morality has absolutely nothing to do with religion, some might see a reference to religion in definition 2 where it states
"a doctrine". After all, religion is a doctrine (or is this another debate!). Relgion is just one set of moral values one may follow but
by no means the only.

I agree with you. I should have worded my post a little better by stating that religious doctrine is not the only source of morality. The second part of the first definition can also refer to religion (Bible, Koran, etc...): a literary or other imaginative work teaching a moral lesson.

redrock

Heineken Helen wrote:

However, there are some people who I just believe are really evil and cold blooded.

Agree, but they may think they have some morality because they adhere to certain principles which are generally recognized as 'moral values'.

redrock

mammasan wrote:

The second part of the first definition can also refer to religion (Bible, Koran, etc...): a literary or other imaginative work teaching a moral lesson.

True...

Heineken Helen

redrock wrote:

Agree, but they may think they have some morality because they adhere to certain principles which are generally recognized as 'moral values'.

but some of them don't... like sociopaths I suppose. They're usually recognised as the kid who kills the neighbours pet cos it's fun... maybe the first step is pulling the legs off flies or wings off butterflies or something.

redrock

Heineken Helen wrote:

but some of them don't... like sociopaths I suppose. They're usually recognised as the kid who kills the neighbours pet cos it's fun... maybe the first step is pulling the legs off flies or wings off butterflies or something.

Maybe this sociopath would never steal from someone poor because it's 'wrong' or again, with my sexual preferences example, wouldn't do 'that' because it is still morally wrong for a number of people.. These examples may be silly but I'm trying to say there is always some principle someone adheres to. I do believe all human beings have some form of morality - as basic as it may be, sociopath or not, as twisted as they come.

Mammasan.. anyone.. your thoughts? Am I the only one with still some faith in human nature?

Heineken Helen

redrock wrote:

Maybe this sociopath would never steal from someone poor because it's 'wrong' or again, with my sexual preferences example, wouldn't do 'that' because it is still morally wrong for a number of people.. These examples may be silly but I'm trying to say there is always some principle someone adheres to. I do believe all human beings have some form of morality - as basic as it may be, sociopath or not, as twisted as they come.

Mammasan.. anyone.. your thoughts? Am I the only one with still some faith in human nature?

Oh stop being so argumentative

Lol, no I see what you're getting at and I understand to a certain extent but just because they view anal sex (for example) as morally wrong doesn't, in my opinion, mean they can kill someone and still have morality... ah now I'm confusing myself

cornnifer

You're absolutely right. A certain sense of "morality" does come with just being Human. i've said this on here a few times now. You don't have to be a "religious" person, or have even the slightest theistic faith, to know, for example, that killing or stealing is wrong. Heck, you don't even have to be TAUGHT these things. Many of the obvious "morals" seem to come naturally. i'll let you decide where they come from.

redrock

Heineken Helen wrote:

Oh stop being so argumentative

Lol, no I see what you're getting at and I understand to a certain extent but just because they view anal sex (for example) as morally wrong doesn't, in my opinion, mean they can kill someone and still have morality... ah now I'm confusing myself

But I'm in one of those moods.. no chocolate at home!

At least you're seeing what I'm getting at. But if they conform to some idea that is 'an ideal of human conduct' (as per definition), however small it may be and whatever else they may be doing, it is still showing some morality. Never mind that it is not what you or I would expect of morality, but it is something.

onelongsong

mammasan wrote:

In a thread that seems to have vanished I was told by a fellow board member that I was wrong for believing that reliogion is not the sole province of morality. Now my belief is that religion is not the only road to a moral life. I live my life to the best of my ability and I try to be the best person I can be everyday. Some day I'm not the best person I can be and realize it and other days I am. I don't need a book or a God to tell me how to live a good life. Just look at the amount of child molesting priests or the likes of Reverend Haggard. Men who preach their devotion to God and morality having a moral fiber that leaves much to be desired. Why is it that people like this can not see that morality does exist outside of religion and they and their fellow congrerants are not the sole possesors of the ability to live a moral life.

once again i'll tell you that you're confusing church with religion. church is something conceived by man; and run by man. under the guise of honoring God. similar to lots of charities that only pad the pockets of the administrators. religion is a "spark" inside of you. untouchable by outside forces. it gives you the power of reason seperating you from other animals. if you haven't found it yet or refuse to acknowledge it; it's still there.

Smellyman2

This reminds me of my favorite Colbert "know your district"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcofsmFXCYE

redrock

onelongsong wrote:

once again i'll tell you that you're confusing church with religion. church is something conceived by man; and run by man. under the guise of honoring God. similar to lots of charities that only pad the pockets of the administrators. religion is a "spark" inside of you. untouchable by outside forces. it gives you the power of reason seperating you from other animals. if you haven't found it yet or refuse to acknowledge it; it's still there.

Having 'found' religion or not or what is religion is not the debate here. What is being debated is that one does not need religion (or whatever you want to call it) to have moral values. You use 'the power of reason separating you from other animals" - that is not a religious thing but a human trait whether you have that 'spark' or not.

lalalalaaaaaaaa

Talking about morality and religion is like talking about the best topping for a hotdog.

Just be good to eachother....and just eat the damn thing.

Collin

onelongsong wrote:

once again i'll tell you that you're confusing church with religion. church is something conceived by man; and run by man. under the guise of honoring God. similar to lots of charities that only pad the pockets of the administrators. religion is a "spark" inside of you. untouchable by outside forces. it gives you the power of reason seperating you from other animals. if you haven't found it yet or refuse to acknowledge it; it's still there.

That's your definition of religion.

religion Show phonetics
noun
1 [C or U] the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship:

This is what religion is according to Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary.

Heineken Helen

redrock wrote:

But I'm in one of those moods.. no chocolate at home!

At least you're seeing what I'm getting at. But if they conform to some idea that is 'an ideal of human conduct' (as per definition), however small it may be and whatever else they may be doing, it is still showing some morality. Never mind that it is not what you or I would expect of morality, but it is something.

Oh you're so easily pleased

redrock

Collin wrote:

That's your definition of religion.

religion Show phonetics
noun
1 [C or U] the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship:

This is what religion is according to Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary.

Noooooooo... don't start with definitions of religion and church... we'll never hear the end of it! Might as well just post a link to http://dictionary.reference.com/ and let people look the terms up themselves

cornnifer

Collin wrote:

That's your definition of religion.

religion Show phonetics
noun
1 [C or U] the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship:

This is what religion is according to Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary.

They defined theism, not religion.

redrock

cornnifer wrote:

They defined theism, not religion.

Theism doesn't mean the worship of the gods. You may believe they exist but you may also not worship them... at least, I think...

**quickly goes to dictionary**

EDIT: Checked... I'm right

Heineken Helen

redrock wrote:

Noooooooo... don't start with definitions of religion and church... we'll never hear the end of it! Might as well just post a link to http://dictionary.reference.com/ and let people look the terms up themselves

^^^^^^^ see above

redrock

Heineken Helen wrote:

^^^^^^^ see above

I know! I get carried away, but had to put things straight!!!!! All this defining has nothing to do with the morality debate!

onelongsong

Collin wrote:

That's your definition of religion.

religion Show phonetics
noun
1 [C or U] the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship:

This is what religion is according to Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary.

was that dictionary written by God or man? deffinitions change over the years.
if i say a chic is cool; does that mean she's cold; hot; or someone you like?
the world used to defined as flat. the solar system used to be defined as the sun revolving around the earth. religion used to be the sacrifice of something important to you; given to God.

if that is their deffinition; then my definition is correct because that is my belief or system of belief as contained in your presented deffinition.