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Morality

mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
edited January 2007 in A Moving Train
In a thread that seems to have vanished I was told by a fellow board member that I was wrong for believing that reliogion is not the sole province of morality. Now my belief is that religion is not the only road to a moral life. I live my life to the best of my ability and I try to be the best person I can be everyday. Some day I'm not the best person I can be and realize it and other days I am. I don't need a book or a God to tell me how to live a good life. Just look at the amount of child molesting priests or the likes of Reverend Haggard. Men who preach their devotion to God and morality having a moral fiber that leaves much to be desired. Why is it that people like this can not see that morality does exist outside of religion and they and their fellow congrerants are not the sole possesors of the ability to live a moral life.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
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  • Smellyman2Smellyman2 Posts: 689
    I hear you Mammasan, but you will never convince the fundies. They believe they have a monopoly on morality even though the pesky "facts" stand in their way. Many of the same people who back the war in Irag. It's awfully hard to take them seriously.

    Fear of God shouldn't "make" you moral. Being human should.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Fundamental Attribution Error
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    eh, ahnimus, I'm not so sure that's an accurate application of the fundamental attribution error.
    reigning champion

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    mammasan wrote:
    In a thread that seems to have vanished I was told by a fellow board member that I was wrong for believing that reliogion is not the sole province of morality. Now my belief is that religion is not the only road to a moral life. I live my life to the best of my ability and I try to be the best person I can be everyday. Some day I'm not the best person I can be and realize it and other days I am. I don't need a book or a God to tell me how to live a good life. Just look at the amount of child molesting priests or the likes of Reverend Haggard. Men who preach their devotion to God and morality having a moral fiber that leaves much to be desired. Why is it that people like this can not see that morality does exist outside of religion and they and their fellow congrerants are not the sole possesors of the ability to live a moral life.

    You sound defensive or that you're trying to convince yourself.

    That being said, EVERYONE has their own version of morality. I can't believe that it even needs to be discussed.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Jeremy1012Jeremy1012 Posts: 7,170
    mammasan wrote:
    In a thread that seems to have vanished I was told by a fellow board member that I was wrong for believing that reliogion is not the sole province of morality. Now my belief is that religion is not the only road to a moral life. I live my life to the best of my ability and I try to be the best person I can be everyday. Some day I'm not the best person I can be and realize it and other days I am. I don't need a book or a God to tell me how to live a good life. Just look at the amount of child molesting priests or the likes of Reverend Haggard. Men who preach their devotion to God and morality having a moral fiber that leaves much to be desired. Why is it that people like this can not see that morality does exist outside of religion and they and their fellow congrerants are not the sole possesors of the ability to live a moral life.
    I couldn't have put it better myself. My morality doesnt come from a book, it comes from having an innate idea of right and wrong. sure, you could argue that that idea comes from growing up in an environment when morals orginate from religion, even if my parents weren't religious. I think that's bullshit though. That would suggest that a new born baby would be a potential killer given the ability because it hasn't had the time to learn conventional morals that may or may not have a root in religion.
    "I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    know1 wrote:
    You sound defensive or that you're trying to convince yourself.

    That being said, EVERYONE has their own version of morality. I can't believe that it even needs to be discussed.

    Defensive yes. I don't need to convince myself that I live a moral life because I know I do. That being said I find it a bit offensive that my morality would be in question simply because I do not suscribe to any set religious doctrine. I find it foolish for people to thing that morality can only be found by reading a book or believing in a certain diety.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    know1 wrote:
    You sound defensive or that you're trying to convince yourself.

    The same can be said of every Christian. Preachers and tele-vangelists being the extreme example.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    mammasan wrote:
    I find it foolish for people to thing that morality can only be found by reading a book or believing in a certain diety.

    And I find it foolish that people even need to get defensive about it. Even the worst serial killers have some degree of morality. It's impossible not to. Therefore, anyone who claims anyone else doesn't have morality is making such an absurd statement that it's hard to believe people would be bothered by it.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    know1 wrote:
    And I find it foolish that people even need to get defensive about it. Even the worst serial killers have some degree of morality. It's impossible not to. Therefore, anyone who claims anyone else doesn't have morality is making such an absurd statement that it's hard to believe people would be bothered by it.

    Well call me foolish them because I was bothered by it.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    I don't know that morality has ever come solely out of religion really, rather it's a combination of all the information presented to you and how you process that or how you are taught to process that information. Religion might be a part of it for some, but it is not capable of being the sole bastion of morality. Parents, teachers, outside influences...then you get old enough and start making up your mind based on the input you've received.

    Some moral ideas may spring from religious dogma, but even for religious people morality can't come solely from a book even if you take every word in that book completely literally. Morality still comes from interpretation and one not need be religious to have moral ideas of proper and improper.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    know1 wrote:
    You sound defensive or that you're trying to convince yourself.

    That being said, EVERYONE has their own version of morality. I can't believe that it even needs to be discussed.
    one can be defensive simply cos they're defending themselves... not cos they're trying to convince themselves. I would get defensive if somebody said the way I live does not exist... something like that can be quite infuriating and make you want to defend it. Nobody ever claimed that religion does not exist (i.e. there are no religious people in the world) so why do people feel they have the right to say stuff like 'morality only comes from religion?', I can't tell you what you feel or what your inner beliefs are, only you know that... but that doesn't just go for you.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Heineken Helen wrote:
    one can be defensive simply cos they're defending themselves... not cos they're trying to convince themselves. I would get defensive if somebody said the way I live does not exist... something like that can be quite infuriating and make you want to defend it. Nobody ever claimed that religion does not exist (i.e. there are no religious people in the world) so why do people feel they have the right to say stuff like 'morality only comes from religion?', I can't tell you what you feel or what your inner beliefs are, only you know that... but that doesn't just go for you.

    Because it's ridiculous. You can't be a human without having some form of morality.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    So know1 do you think non-religious people have less morality than religious people?
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  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    know1 wrote:
    Because it's ridiculous. You can't be a human without having some form of morality.
    Do you think so? Not being argumentative or anything... but do you really believe everyone has some form of morality?
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    know1 wrote:
    Because it's ridiculous. You can't be a human without having some form of morality.

    That's obvious to me but there are people out there, and at least one on this board, who either don't see or refuse to see that.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    mammasan wrote:
    That's obvious to me but there are people out there, and at least one on this board, who either don't see or refuse to see that.

    And that's my point - whoever this is is too foolish to be given any credibility.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Heineken Helen wrote:
    Do you think so? Not being argumentative or anything... but do you really believe everyone has some form of morality?

    Depends how far you want to strip the word morality. It can be just a concept of conformity within society or can be far reaching moral values.

    One can put a vile criminal never having same sex intercourse down to morality - morally it may be wrong to him/her (and to many others). That is a form of morality.

    Could go on forever. Just depends how you want to understand the word.
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    Well here is the definition of morality from the Medrriam-Webster's dictionary.

    Main Entry: mo·ral·i·ty
    Pronunciation: m&-'ra-l&-tE, mo-
    Function: noun
    Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
    1 a : a moral discourse, statement, or lesson b : a literary or other imaginative work teaching a moral lesson
    2 a : a doctrine or system of moral conduct b plural : particular moral principles or rules of conduct
    3 : conformity to ideals of right human conduct
    4 : moral conduct : VIRTUE

    No where in that definition does the word religion even appear.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Mammasan.. though I believe morality has absolutely nothing to do with religion, some might see a reference to religion in definition 2 where it states
    "a doctrine". After all, religion is a doctrine (or is this another debate!). Relgion is just one set of moral values one may follow but
    by no means the only.
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    redrock wrote:
    Depends how far you want to strip the word morality. It can be just a concept of conformity within society or can be far reaching moral values.

    One can put a vile criminal never having same sex intercourse down to morality - morally it may be wrong to him/her (and to many others). That is a form of morality.

    Could go on forever. Just depends how you understand the word.
    well I would strip it down to a question of not only KNOWING right from wrong but knowing to act only from within the 'right' column. So looking at it that way, ok even some of the vilest criminals I can empathise with to a certain degree if they have had a bad upbringing or something happened which made them like that... I don't always or EVER really understand but I can see it. However, there are some people who I just believe are really evil and cold blooded.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    redrock wrote:
    Mammasan.. though I believe morality has absolutely nothing to do with religion, some might see a reference to religion in definition 2 where it states
    "a doctrine". After all, religion is a doctrine (or is this another debate!). Relgion is just one set of moral values one may follow but
    by no means the only.

    I agree with you. I should have worded my post a little better by stating that religious doctrine is not the only source of morality. The second part of the first definition can also refer to religion (Bible, Koran, etc...): a literary or other imaginative work teaching a moral lesson.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Heineken Helen wrote:
    However, there are some people who I just believe are really evil and cold blooded.
    Agree, but they may think they have some morality because they adhere to certain principles which are generally recognized as 'moral values'.
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    mammasan wrote:
    The second part of the first definition can also refer to religion (Bible, Koran, etc...): a literary or other imaginative work teaching a moral lesson.

    True... :)
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    redrock wrote:
    Agree, but they may think they have some morality because they adhere to certain principles which are generally recognized as 'moral values'.
    but some of them don't... like sociopaths I suppose. They're usually recognised as the kid who kills the neighbours pet cos it's fun... maybe the first step is pulling the legs off flies or wings off butterflies or something.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Heineken Helen wrote:
    but some of them don't... like sociopaths I suppose. They're usually recognised as the kid who kills the neighbours pet cos it's fun... maybe the first step is pulling the legs off flies or wings off butterflies or something.

    Maybe this sociopath would never steal from someone poor because it's 'wrong' or again, with my sexual preferences example, wouldn't do 'that' because it is still morally wrong for a number of people.. These examples may be silly but I'm trying to say there is always some principle someone adheres to. I do believe all human beings have some form of morality - as basic as it may be, sociopath or not, as twisted as they come.

    Mammasan.. anyone.. your thoughts? Am I the only one with still some faith in human nature? :o
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    redrock wrote:
    Maybe this sociopath would never steal from someone poor because it's 'wrong' or again, with my sexual preferences example, wouldn't do 'that' because it is still morally wrong for a number of people.. These examples may be silly but I'm trying to say there is always some principle someone adheres to. I do believe all human beings have some form of morality - as basic as it may be, sociopath or not, as twisted as they come.

    Mammasan.. anyone.. your thoughts? Am I the only one with still some faith in human nature? :o
    Oh stop being so argumentative :p

    Lol, no I see what you're getting at and I understand to a certain extent but just because they view anal sex (for example) as morally wrong doesn't, in my opinion, mean they can kill someone and still have morality... ah now I'm confusing myself :D
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • cornnifercornnifer Posts: 2,130
    You're absolutely right. A certain sense of "morality" does come with just being Human. i've said this on here a few times now. You don't have to be a "religious" person, or have even the slightest theistic faith, to know, for example, that killing or stealing is wrong. Heck, you don't even have to be TAUGHT these things. Many of the obvious "morals" seem to come naturally. i'll let you decide where they come from.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Heineken Helen wrote:
    Oh stop being so argumentative :p

    Lol, no I see what you're getting at and I understand to a certain extent but just because they view anal sex (for example) as morally wrong doesn't, in my opinion, mean they can kill someone and still have morality... ah now I'm confusing myself :D

    But I'm in one of those moods.. no chocolate at home!

    At least you're seeing what I'm getting at. But if they conform to some idea that is 'an ideal of human conduct' (as per definition), however small it may be and whatever else they may be doing, it is still showing some morality. Never mind that it is not what you or I would expect of morality, but it is something.
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    mammasan wrote:
    In a thread that seems to have vanished I was told by a fellow board member that I was wrong for believing that reliogion is not the sole province of morality. Now my belief is that religion is not the only road to a moral life. I live my life to the best of my ability and I try to be the best person I can be everyday. Some day I'm not the best person I can be and realize it and other days I am. I don't need a book or a God to tell me how to live a good life. Just look at the amount of child molesting priests or the likes of Reverend Haggard. Men who preach their devotion to God and morality having a moral fiber that leaves much to be desired. Why is it that people like this can not see that morality does exist outside of religion and they and their fellow congrerants are not the sole possesors of the ability to live a moral life.

    once again i'll tell you that you're confusing church with religion. church is something conceived by man; and run by man. under the guise of honoring God. similar to lots of charities that only pad the pockets of the administrators. religion is a "spark" inside of you. untouchable by outside forces. it gives you the power of reason seperating you from other animals. if you haven't found it yet or refuse to acknowledge it; it's still there.
  • Smellyman2Smellyman2 Posts: 689
    This reminds me of my favorite Colbert "know your district"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcofsmFXCYE
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