Morality

mammasan

In a thread that seems to have vanished I was told by a fellow board member that I was wrong for believing that reliogion is not the sole province of morality. Now my belief is that religion is not the only road to a moral life. I live my life to the best of my ability and I try to be the best person I can be everyday. Some day I'm not the best person I can be and realize it and other days I am. I don't need a book or a God to tell me how to live a good life. Just look at the amount of child molesting priests or the likes of Reverend Haggard. Men who preach their devotion to God and morality having a moral fiber that leaves much to be desired. Why is it that people like this can not see that morality does exist outside of religion and they and their fellow congrerants are not the sole possesors of the ability to live a moral life.

Smellyman2

I hear you Mammasan, but you will never convince the fundies. They believe they have a monopoly on morality even though the pesky "facts" stand in their way. Many of the same people who back the war in Irag. It's awfully hard to take them seriously.

Fear of God shouldn't "make" you moral. Being human should.

Ahnimus

Fundamental Attribution Error

sponger

eh, ahnimus, I'm not so sure that's an accurate application of the fundamental attribution error.

know1

mammasan wrote:

In a thread that seems to have vanished I was told by a fellow board member that I was wrong for believing that reliogion is not the sole province of morality. Now my belief is that religion is not the only road to a moral life. I live my life to the best of my ability and I try to be the best person I can be everyday. Some day I'm not the best person I can be and realize it and other days I am. I don't need a book or a God to tell me how to live a good life. Just look at the amount of child molesting priests or the likes of Reverend Haggard. Men who preach their devotion to God and morality having a moral fiber that leaves much to be desired. Why is it that people like this can not see that morality does exist outside of religion and they and their fellow congrerants are not the sole possesors of the ability to live a moral life.

You sound defensive or that you're trying to convince yourself.

That being said, EVERYONE has their own version of morality. I can't believe that it even needs to be discussed.

Jeremy1012

mammasan wrote:

In a thread that seems to have vanished I was told by a fellow board member that I was wrong for believing that reliogion is not the sole province of morality. Now my belief is that religion is not the only road to a moral life. I live my life to the best of my ability and I try to be the best person I can be everyday. Some day I'm not the best person I can be and realize it and other days I am. I don't need a book or a God to tell me how to live a good life. Just look at the amount of child molesting priests or the likes of Reverend Haggard. Men who preach their devotion to God and morality having a moral fiber that leaves much to be desired. Why is it that people like this can not see that morality does exist outside of religion and they and their fellow congrerants are not the sole possesors of the ability to live a moral life.

I couldn't have put it better myself. My morality doesnt come from a book, it comes from having an innate idea of right and wrong. sure, you could argue that that idea comes from growing up in an environment when morals orginate from religion, even if my parents weren't religious. I think that's bullshit though. That would suggest that a new born baby would be a potential killer given the ability because it hasn't had the time to learn conventional morals that may or may not have a root in religion.

mammasan

know1 wrote:

You sound defensive or that you're trying to convince yourself.

That being said, EVERYONE has their own version of morality. I can't believe that it even needs to be discussed.

Defensive yes. I don't need to convince myself that I live a moral life because I know I do. That being said I find it a bit offensive that my morality would be in question simply because I do not suscribe to any set religious doctrine. I find it foolish for people to thing that morality can only be found by reading a book or believing in a certain diety.

Byrnzie

know1 wrote:

You sound defensive or that you're trying to convince yourself.

The same can be said of every Christian. Preachers and tele-vangelists being the extreme example.

know1

mammasan wrote:

I find it foolish for people to thing that morality can only be found by reading a book or believing in a certain diety.

And I find it foolish that people even need to get defensive about it. Even the worst serial killers have some degree of morality. It's impossible not to. Therefore, anyone who claims anyone else doesn't have morality is making such an absurd statement that it's hard to believe people would be bothered by it.

mammasan

know1 wrote:

And I find it foolish that people even need to get defensive about it. Even the worst serial killers have some degree of morality. It's impossible not to. Therefore, anyone who claims anyone else doesn't have morality is making such an absurd statement that it's hard to believe people would be bothered by it.

Well call me foolish them because I was bothered by it.

Pacomc79

I don't know that morality has ever come solely out of religion really, rather it's a combination of all the information presented to you and how you process that or how you are taught to process that information. Religion might be a part of it for some, but it is not capable of being the sole bastion of morality. Parents, teachers, outside influences...then you get old enough and start making up your mind based on the input you've received.

Some moral ideas may spring from religious dogma, but even for religious people morality can't come solely from a book even if you take every word in that book completely literally. Morality still comes from interpretation and one not need be religious to have moral ideas of proper and improper.

Heineken Helen

know1 wrote:

You sound defensive or that you're trying to convince yourself.

That being said, EVERYONE has their own version of morality. I can't believe that it even needs to be discussed.

one can be defensive simply cos they're defending themselves... not cos they're trying to convince themselves. I would get defensive if somebody said the way I live does not exist... something like that can be quite infuriating and make you want to defend it. Nobody ever claimed that religion does not exist (i.e. there are no religious people in the world) so why do people feel they have the right to say stuff like 'morality only comes from religion?', I can't tell you what you feel or what your inner beliefs are, only you know that... but that doesn't just go for you.

know1

Heineken Helen wrote:

one can be defensive simply cos they're defending themselves... not cos they're trying to convince themselves. I would get defensive if somebody said the way I live does not exist... something like that can be quite infuriating and make you want to defend it. Nobody ever claimed that religion does not exist (i.e. there are no religious people in the world) so why do people feel they have the right to say stuff like 'morality only comes from religion?', I can't tell you what you feel or what your inner beliefs are, only you know that... but that doesn't just go for you.

Because it's ridiculous. You can't be a human without having some form of morality.

Collin

So know1 do you think non-religious people have less morality than religious people?

Heineken Helen

know1 wrote:

Because it's ridiculous. You can't be a human without having some form of morality.

Do you think so? Not being argumentative or anything... but do you really believe everyone has some form of morality?

mammasan

know1 wrote:

Because it's ridiculous. You can't be a human without having some form of morality.

That's obvious to me but there are people out there, and at least one on this board, who either don't see or refuse to see that.

know1

mammasan wrote:

That's obvious to me but there are people out there, and at least one on this board, who either don't see or refuse to see that.

And that's my point - whoever this is is too foolish to be given any credibility.

redrock

Heineken Helen wrote:

Do you think so? Not being argumentative or anything... but do you really believe everyone has some form of morality?

Depends how far you want to strip the word morality. It can be just a concept of conformity within society or can be far reaching moral values.

One can put a vile criminal never having same sex intercourse down to morality - morally it may be wrong to him/her (and to many others). That is a form of morality.

Could go on forever. Just depends how you want to understand the word.

mammasan

Well here is the definition of morality from the Medrriam-Webster's dictionary.

Main Entry: mo·ral·i·ty
Pronunciation: m&-'ra-l&-tE, mo-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 a : a moral discourse, statement, or lesson b : a literary or other imaginative work teaching a moral lesson
2 a : a doctrine or system of moral conduct b plural : particular moral principles or rules of conduct
3 : conformity to ideals of right human conduct
4 : moral conduct : VIRTUE

No where in that definition does the word religion even appear.

redrock

Mammasan.. though I believe morality has absolutely nothing to do with religion, some might see a reference to religion in definition 2 where it states
"a doctrine". After all, religion is a doctrine (or is this another debate!). Relgion is just one set of moral values one may follow but
by no means the only.

Heineken Helen

redrock wrote:

Depends how far you want to strip the word morality. It can be just a concept of conformity within society or can be far reaching moral values.

One can put a vile criminal never having same sex intercourse down to morality - morally it may be wrong to him/her (and to many others). That is a form of morality.

Could go on forever. Just depends how you understand the word.

well I would strip it down to a question of not only KNOWING right from wrong but knowing to act only from within the 'right' column. So looking at it that way, ok even some of the vilest criminals I can empathise with to a certain degree if they have had a bad upbringing or something happened which made them like that... I don't always or EVER really understand but I can see it. However, there are some people who I just believe are really evil and cold blooded.