Holocaust Revisionism?
AllNiteThing
Posts: 1,114
With the recent conflicts in the Mid-East involving Israel, I wanted to do some research on Israel and the purpose and history of its creation. It led me to the Holocaust, and some interesting writings on the topic. I've done much study on it in college and on my own over the years, always being a big war/WW2 buff and history enthusiast. I've always read about the Holocaust deniers as nuts and quackpots, but never fully studied their 'reasoning'. Then I stumbled upon this article:
http://www.geniebusters.org/915/04g_gas.html
http://www.geniebusters.org/915/04g_jumping.html
It doesn't appear to be written by someone who's mentally unstable or racist, but rather a very informed and logical thinking person. It's persuasive. That scares me. I've tried doing a lot of research to discredit him, and am still in the long process of gathering all of the information I can, but I'd like to see some input. Please read this and let me know what you think. I don't want blanket statements, misinformed opinions or hate speech, but reasoned debate. Help me out. The implications of this are mindboggling.
http://www.geniebusters.org/915/04g_gas.html
http://www.geniebusters.org/915/04g_jumping.html
It doesn't appear to be written by someone who's mentally unstable or racist, but rather a very informed and logical thinking person. It's persuasive. That scares me. I've tried doing a lot of research to discredit him, and am still in the long process of gathering all of the information I can, but I'd like to see some input. Please read this and let me know what you think. I don't want blanket statements, misinformed opinions or hate speech, but reasoned debate. Help me out. The implications of this are mindboggling.
24 years old, mid-life crisis
nowadays hits you when you're young
nowadays hits you when you're young
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
Comments
Hey, allnite, it is great to see you again!
I have checked the thing, and I have to tell you.... it is not easy to find out how grounded are these theories and how reliable are these authors. I just wonder what this is useful for. I could understand it only as an internal debate between historian, which to me it is apparently not the case. I think that in the historical moment we're living, such operation is not only useless, but also dangerous.
Yeah, maybe some people feel too uncomfortable to discuss this, and maybe it's in bad taste to even post it, but I'm fascinated by history, especially alternate takes. There's no question the Holocaust happened, and mass atrocities were committed, but this article raises some good points about propaganda, what is/was/was not true, etc.
I think the whole creation of Israel was a mistake in hindsite, and was borne out of a)Western racism against the Jews and b)Western want for control and a foothold in the Mid-East. It's deplorable that Western nations wouldn't take in the Jews, in fact many were turned away even while the Holocaust was going on. I think they were used as a tool to create Israel under the guise of 'humanitarianism'.
I have Jewish family and have absolutely nothing wrong with the faith or people, but I do with Zionism and Israeli militarism. To suggest that the Holocaust was exploited and possibly over exaggerated a bit for the purpose of Western expansion into the Mid-East is certainly worth an exercise in study. It is only dangerous if you use unbased 'theories' for racist activies or discussion, which I don't believe this discussion nor the article is about. We know that history is written by the victors, which is why we must scrutinize it very closely ourselves, and not rely on popular thought.
Nice to see you around too Eva.
nowadays hits you when you're young
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4733820.stm
I've read how it's illegal to even suggest that in many European countries. That just seems crazy to me! Why are so many racist and hate groups allowed to exist and practice, yet someone can't debate historical occurences logically? You can have the Klu Klux Klan spouting off that blacks are an inferior race, with absolutely no physical, mental, social or historical proof to back up their assertions, yet are allowed to express that. Then someone challenges popular thinking on the history of the Holocaust, using research and testimonials to back it up and gets jailed? I'm not saying they would reach the correct conclusion based on said research, but to be jailed over it? Wow.
nowadays hits you when you're young
I don't see anything wrong with questioning history as we've seen history change so many times with new information. Some revisionists think the Jews encouraged the holocaust and thus the reason they don't want people looking into it.
Really?? That is a scary law. I understand what their rational for it was, but I disagree with it completely. History is a story that can change over time as new evidence or new accounts surface.
I will read these and post my opinion later. I agree that questioning history isn't necessarily a bad thing, although the timing of this is a bit concerning to me. There's tons and tons of anti-Israel sentiment on this board right now, so I anticipate people on both sides of the debate getting pretty worked up and perhaps saying things that aren't too constrictive.
Just for the record, there are many laws in Western societies that ban "hate speech" and such, thus making the de facto activities of many hate groups illegal. Its not just Holocaust issues that are the target of this kind of law, and in fact, why don't more people here criticize such laws in general? People seem to think they are good laws, until Jews are involved.
I don't like the laws, I started to talk about them before, and I got upset and banned :(
The law in Canada is that you can't question the 6 million dead figure of the Holocaust, you can't question wether gas chambers existed or not. It's a stupid law, the law was written by the ADL ("Protecting Jews from anti-semitism") and passed by the government. It's a stupid law.
I see a distinct difference between the Klu Klux Klan marching down the street with their sheets and effigies of hanging blacks to the academic research into the history and validity of Holocaust accounts and logical debate/discussion. There is no racial or ethnic hate speech or discrimination in the latter. Last I knew, it's legal for the KKK to hold these rallies and run meetings and provide literature/websites. There are plenty of hate groups allowed to assemble. But, stating that an HISTORICAL EVENT did or did not take place and hate speech are completely different. It has nothing to do with hate for Jews. How can you make something like that criminal for god's sake?
Also, can we please refrain from the claims of Anti-Semitism here, that is not what this discussion is for. And, I would be insulted at even the insinuation that I nor anyone is anti-Jew for wanting to find the truth. As I've stated, I have Jewish family. I've stated my motivation for posting this. Yes it did spur from recent events, and yes I am not a proponent of the Israeli military state. But, that does not make me anti-Jew in the least.
nowadays hits you when you're young
i guess the hardest part of this for me is that survivors talk about it and the people who were at the camp admit to it. He also brings up mein kampf. Hitler wrote that in prison and he wasn't taken too seriously at that time.
this guy also quotes "We cannot shoot these 3.5 million Jews, nor can we poison them"...the author assumes that the poison in reference is to gas. Hans frank could have meant with liquid poison and that wouldn't be possible.
this below is probably the worst support for an idea. He's assuming there would be pictures (and he proves this b/c of the Abu gharab situation...his thought process must be...since it happened 2 years ago it must have happened 60 years ago). This is a huge assumption!
"If the gassing scenario happened at all, let alone thousands of times, there would be photographs. But there are none.
There are no photographs of anyone being gassed because nobody was gassed."
again, that's not proof of anything, all that says is there are no photographs any other inference is purely conjecture.
Thanks, I want people to take the time and respond to it. I think he is persuasive.
Also, I never stated in the first post that it was about the Holocaust not existing. I want people to read and judge for themselves.
I think you can seperate anti-Israel with anti-Jew pretty clearly. To be anti-Jew is to be a bigot, but to be anti-Israel is to disagree with their formation, actions and tactics to this point. It doesn't mean you necessarily hate the people or type of people that make up that nation. For instance, if I am against Finland, that doesn't make me anti-Scandinavian or anti-White, does it?
I also hope this debate/discussion doesn't boil down into the anti-Jew/anti-Muslim quagmire we seem to have here.
nowadays hits you when you're young
Good start.
I've been reading some of the testimony of Nazi officials at Nuremburg...fascinating stuff. It's also interesting the fate of the crazy Dr. Mengele. Look that guy up! It's amazing how he escaped and lived in Brazil until 1979! The guy did some of the most atrocious things to humans one could possibly imagine. Worse than gassing itself.
The argument linked to may have many holes, so hopefully this isn't an exercise in futility, but an opportunity to learn more about such a pivotal event in our history.
nowadays hits you when you're young
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/hoess-memoirs/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/denial/revisionism-qa.shtml
Holocaust deniers argue that there was no first gassing of Soviet POWs in Auschwitz. 20 However, in 1994, Cracow's Institute for Forensic Research did a comprehensive study of the structures at Auschwitz identified as homicidal gas chambers. The Institute found traces of hydrocyanic acid, the poison gas used for mass murder, in the cellar of Block 11, the place identified by Höss as the site of the first gassing. Moreover, the Institute also found that there were low levels of such acid when compared to the other gassing sites, thus substantiating Höss's statement that Block 11 was abandoned early on as a gassing site because of unsuitability. The Institue also found hydrocyanic acid in Crematorium I, where Höss states that the gassing operations for Soviet POWs were moved to. 21
As Ed Vedder said on the VH1 Storytellers show "Truth seems to be a vanishing commodity"
As a journalist , I learnd over the years not to trust everything a politician says! The Holocaust happened , that's sure , But not the way we've been told ! And what is happening now in the middle east is the same ! The Israeli government is surely not Bonbing Lebanon to get back the prisonners , there is many other ways to do that without any blood flowing ! And it's the same with the Us invading Iraq , "Freeing the pople in Iraq" This is the Biggest lie I have ever heard !!!
What you have to know is that every governament acts for its own profits !
That is a fantastic post.
Similarly, I think the creation of Israel as we know it was a mistake. While I appreciate Jerusalem being a holy site for people of all creeds and spiritualities, the middle east is no place for Zionists. For their own good, for the good of the Muslim populus. As much as the Jews need a land to call their own, with safety and security, so do the Palestinians and denying them that right has caused decade after decade of conflict.
I think the Jews should take Quebec or Alberta. They are nice places, plenty of stuff there.
Hmmmmm
Strangely revolutional
lol, they wouldn't anyway, because they aren't Holy places. I doubt they'd even trade Israel for all of Canada. Because this is land is crap compared to the Holy Land.
I think the creation of this message board was a mistake. It has become a despicable anti-Israel hatefest.
See, now you were asked not to say this is Anti-Israel, but you went and did it anyway. This is not a display of hate towards Israel or Jews, in-fact I've yet to see anyone clearly display animosity towards Israel or Jews. You are obviously viewing these statements through a Jewish lens.
Oh no, no animosity at all. You're just saying that Israel doesn't have a right to exist.
I didn't say that, however, Israel is an illegal state, therefor it doesn't really have a right to exist. It does exist though and I don't expect it to stop existing, I just expect it to stop killing arabs, and lose it's superiority complex. I don't give a shit about Judaism, it's all lies and hipocrisy to me, so is Christianity and Islam. So you and your ADL can just shut up about anti-semitism. Above all Jews are the most racist people on the planet. How's that for a racist remark? Don't like it? Well then think twice about what you are saying.
Yup. Thanks for confirming what a racist asshole you are.
I don't see how you concluded that. Obviously you want me to be racist so you can discredit what I am saying. That is the primary tool of Jews and the ADL, to call anyone that opposes them racist. So that makes you racist, because if I am not a jew that doesn't support jews, then I am racist, which is a racist conclusion. Understand?
I think he dis-agrees with organized religion....
Who happens to hate Jews. It is anti-semitism, plain and simple, when you post something like this:
"That is the primary tool of Jews and the ADL, to call anyone that opposes them racist."
No matter how good it sounds, Israel wouldn't uproot because of the holy site of Jerusalem.
EVEN THOUGH Mecca to Muslims is just as holy (even more holy?) and not even 10% of the muslim populus live in Saudi Arabia.
Make a pilgrimage out of it.
Just don't get all possesive over who should be there and who shouldn't, and who is in the wrong. It doesn't work like that
It's a generalization I'll give you that. However, it's not racist. Think about it, what if this same philosophy applied to everyone? Criticism of Aryan people is racism, Criticism of every nation and ethnicity in the world is racism. What kind of world would we live in? a nazi regime probably.