Obama just forfeited his right to complain about McCain's tactics

Strangest Tribe

McCain himself said he voted with Bush 90% of the time.

Don't blame Obama for what McCain said.

slightofjeff wrote:

That isn't exactly true. But Obama would like you to believe it.

I don't know if you know this, but the president doesn't actually get to vote in the Senate. So it is impossible to know his stance on every single bill that comes to a vote on the Senate floor.

Where that 90 percent number comes from is an analysis (completely unbiased, I'm sure) of votes in which the analyzers were fairly certain they knew what Bush's stance might be on a given bill. That encompasses 22 percent of the Senate votes since Bush took office. So, to be completely fair, McCain agreed with Bush 90 percent of 22 percent of the time.

A better gauge of McCain's independent-ness might be this: Over that span, he voted with the Republicans only 81 percent of the time. That measures ALL votes.

FWIW, Obama and Biden voted their party lines well over 90 percent of the time.

You know, if you care about such a thing ... but the 90 percent number Obama has been throwing around as fact is grossly misleading. Which, of course, is the point.

catch22

slightofjeff wrote:

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss ... except this one's a black guy!

things are bad enough that i'm happy to toss my vote to an unknown. best case scenario is he's as classy as he says and he straightens things out a bit. worst case is he turns out to be as impotent as carter and we just plod along for 4 years or so. both alternatives are better than voting for the guy who is certain to continue making things worse.

digster

slightofjeff wrote:

The situations are different in my book for several reasons ... the first being this ad DOESN'T EVEN USE MCCAIN'S RECORD

Sleightofjeff, it seems that one of the things that separates this ad from the Obama 'sex ed', according to you, is that there is a shred of truth in that advertisement whereas this Obama ad willfully distorts McCain's positions without using any facts or positions of McCain to back up the accusations. Fair enough.

I've noticed this morning that John McCain has put out a bunch of different advertisements this week, all cautioning Americans not to vote for Obama because he will raise the income taxes of the middle class. Now this is a direct lie; Obama's plan says the exact opposite. So McCain therefore, is distorting Obama's plan, saying it says the opposite of what it really says.

This is just as odious as Obama's ad, correct? Going by your logic?

catch22

digster wrote:

Sleightofjeff, it seems that one of the things that separates this ad from the Obama 'sex ed', according to you, is that there is a shred of truth in that advertisement whereas this Obama ad willfully distorts McCain's positions without using any facts or positions of McCain to back up the accusations. Fair enough.

I've noticed this morning that John McCain has put out a bunch of different advertisements this week, all cautioning Americans not to vote for Obama because he will raise the income taxes of the middle class. Now this is a direct lie; Obama's plan says the exact opposite. So McCain therefore, is distorting Obama's plan, saying it says the opposite of what it really says.

This is just as odious as Obama's ad, correct? Going by your logic?

i'm looking forward to the wiggling excuses a-comin!

slightofjeff

ACCBootlegGoddess wrote:

Same tune can be sung about Mccain too (minus the black guy part).

Meet the really, really, really old boss ...

slightofjeff

digster wrote:

I've noticed this morning that John McCain has put out a bunch of different advertisements this week, all cautioning Americans not to vote for Obama because he will raise the income taxes of the middle class. Now this is a direct lie; Obama's plan says the exact opposite. So McCain therefore, is distorting Obama's plan, saying it says the opposite of what it really says.

I would have to see the ads in question before commenting. I think it's fair to say, "Obama says he won't raise taxes on the middle class, but his record certainly suggests otherwise." If an ad makes that point, then I've got no problem with it.

If it flat-out says, "Obama's tax plan, as published on his web site, includes tax hikes for the middle class." Then, yeah, that's a lie.

Its Evolution Baby

slightofjeff wrote:

I would have to see the ads in question before commenting. I think it's fair to say, "Obama says he won't raise taxes on the middle class, but his record certainly suggests otherwise." If an ad makes that point, then I've got no problem with it.

If it flat-out says, "Obama's tax plan, as published on his web site, includes tax hikes for the middle class." Then, yeah, that's a lie.

I'm usually respect your points even if I disagree with you but this is a stretch to me. McCain has really gone negative the last 2 weeks or so. From the Sex ed Add to the lipstick on a pig. And I saw the add in question and it didn't say based on his record it just says flatly he will raise taxes.

If Obama wants to play the game, which i think he should in order to win, then you are right he shouldn't complain anymore. But McCain really did start this right about the time he was down by 6 % and in the electoral college polls.

slightofjeff

Its Evolution Baby wrote:

I'm usually respect your points even if I disagree with you but this is a stretch to me. McCain has really gone negative the last 2 weeks or so. From the Sex ed Add to the lipstick on a pig. And I saw the add in question and it didn't say based on his record it just says flatly he will raise taxes.

If Obama wants to play the game, which i think he should in order to win, then you are right he shouldn't complain anymore. But McCain really did start this right about the time he was down by 6 % and in the electoral college polls.

I'm not going to argue McCain hasn't "gone negative." I might even be willing to agree with your assertion that "he started it."

But at least one study would disagree with the prevailing opinion that McCain has been more negative than Obama of late:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/17/AR2008091703581.html

"Seventy-seven percent of the Illinois Democrat's commercials were negative during the week after the Republican National Convention, compared with 56 percent of the spots run by McCain."

Its Evolution Baby

slightofjeff wrote:

I'm not going to argue McCain hasn't "gone negative." I might even be willing to agree with your assertion that "he started it."

But at least one study would disagree with the prevailing opinion that McCain has been more negative than Obama of late:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/17/AR2008091703581.html

"Seventy-seven percent of the Illinois Democrat's commercials were negative during the week after the Republican National Convention, compared with 56 percent of the spots run by McCain."

What's really upsetting is I expected a fair campaign to be run by both men based on there past actions.

But once you get so close to the finish line I guess its time to go for the win.

I hope the debates are more civil and stick to the issues but I have my doubts about that at this point.

digster

catch22 wrote:

i'm looking forward to the wiggling excuses a-comin!

To be fair, I think for the most part of sleightofjeff backs up what he's saying (I disagree that he is in this instance), and he doesn't agree with me on anything. I'd rather be talking to someone who disagrees with me on nothing.

slightofjeff

digster wrote:

To be fair, I think for the most part of sleightofjeff backs up what he's saying (I disagree that he is in this instance), and he doesn't agree with me on anything. I'd rather be talking to someone who disagrees with me on nothing.

Thanks ... I think

digster

slightofjeff wrote:

I would have to see the ads in question before commenting. I think it's fair to say, "Obama says he won't raise taxes on the middle class, but his record certainly suggests otherwise." If an ad makes that point, then I've got no problem with it.

If it flat-out says, "Obama's tax plan, as published on his web site, includes tax hikes for the middle class." Then, yeah, that's a lie.

Well, here it is; one of about five I believe where McCain accuses Obama of having plans that will increase income taxes for Americans...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFHdXEmpI7Q

I think it is pretty straightforward; both Obama and McCain pledged to run a clean campaign without petty distortions and outright lies. I think McCain started it first, but that doesn't matter to me too much, because no matter what I think it was heading there anyway. The thing is that Obama's ads have primarily been focused on the big issues of the day (Iraq and especially the economy), for a simple reason; as the polls show it, the majority of Americans right now agree with his approach. This leads McCain to want to take the focus off those issues, since he's not necessarily in the mainstream of these at the current moment, and he engages in character attacks that will distract the news cycle. That I think, for the most part, other than this most recent ad from Obama has been the differentiation.

But I fail to see how McCain's ads are more dignified, or even more honest.

puremagic

slightofjeff wrote:

I officially hate politics now. How in the world can people get away with this stuff?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/from-the-fact-1.html

How in the fuck McCain could ever be construed as anti-immigration is beyond me. One of the reasons conservatives balked at him pre-Palin was because they are scared to death he's going to push through an amnesty bill.

At the very least, Obama is now officially even with McCain over the kindergarted sex-ed ad, which at least had a grain of truth to it.

This is just a flat-out malicious fabrication from the guy who was supposed to magically change the tone in Washington .... sheesh.

Such drama!


Obama will never come close to the underhanded lies put out by the Republican party, McCain and Palin. No one, is against immigration, they against illegal immigration and what can be done to resolve the status of illegals who have been in this country for years. McCain has flip flopped on his joint bill with Kennedy regarding amnesty.

slightofjeff

digster wrote:

But I fail to see how McCain's ads are more dignified, or even more honest.

Well, nobody ever accused a political campaign of being dignified ... I'll give you that.

LiteTheMatch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSPb-fmqUyY

jimed14

hey slight .... what's your opinion on push-polling?


From the NY Times ....

A Caucus reader in Florida tells us that she too was called by a research firm that has been telephoning other Jewish voters and delivering negative information about Senator Barack Obama.

After readers reported to various Web sites — including Politico , The New Republic, and Talking Points Memo — that they had received offensive calls, Politico reported that the poll was sponsored by the Republican Jewish Coalition, which is working on behalf of Senator John McCain.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/17/troubling-phone-polls/

more from the AP and Politico ...

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jYNQyAwFMCq4ykSL3w_lsV950-vwD937GIN00

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13516.html

YieldInHiding

slightofjeff wrote:

That isn't exactly true. But Obama would like you to believe it.

I don't know if you know this, but the president doesn't actually get to vote in the Senate. So it is impossible to know his stance on every single bill that comes to a vote on the Senate floor.

Where that 90 percent number comes from is an analysis (completely unbiased, I'm sure) of votes in which the analyzers were fairly certain they knew what Bush's stance might be on a given bill. That encompasses 22 percent of the Senate votes since Bush took office. So, to be completely fair, McCain agreed with Bush 90 percent of 22 percent of the time.

A better gauge of McCain's independent-ness might be this: Over that span, he voted with the Republicans only 81 percent of the time. That measures ALL votes.

FWIW, Obama and Biden voted their party lines well over 90 percent of the time.

You know, if you care about such a thing ... but the 90 percent number Obama has been throwing around as fact is grossly misleading. Which, of course, is the point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4DrL8-UA4U

You were saying?

Dirtie_Frank

YieldInHiding wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4DrL8-UA4U

You were saying?

I would like to hear all of what was said instead of just clips. Showing a democrat commercial is not proving anything

YieldInHiding

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

I would like to hear all of what was said instead of just clips. Showing a democrat commercial is not proving anything

It proves it comes directly from McSame's mouth. Not some left wing political strategist.

digster

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

I would like to hear all of what was said instead of just clips. Showing a democrat commercial is not proving anything

How exactly could those quotes be 'spun' may I ask?