we have medicaid for those who can't afford health insurance.
LOL , & to qualify for said Medicaid . U have to make under a certain amount of $$$ per year. if you make over that your screwed ... & the costs of personal ins , can cost as much as 800$ a month per person !
i aint poor , but i certainly aint rich !
Vote for PJ to play in Alaska
11/91 chicago
7/11/95 chicago
6/29/98 chicago
5/30/00 london UK
6/4/00 manchester UK
10/8/00 alpine valley
10/9/00 chicago
6/18/03 chicago
I put forth the statement that the US one is A LOT more inefficient
LOL
There is not one shred of truth to that statement. Efficient in what way? Shorter lines? That is not the economic measure of efficiency, Norway.
You measure efficiency by looking at the number of dollars that are wasted on healthcare that could be spent on other things. Naturally, when government runs a program, it will waste more than private industry would because government is required to provide services to you. Private industry can turn you away.
I like how you frequently trot out this "efficiency" argument as though it's actually true. Economically speaking, there is no efficiency in anything government does. Anything government does would be done more efficiently by a private company. The fact is, there are some activities that are public goods and government would not be best for those activities.
Universal Healthcare is not a public good. It can be divided and used up by individuals. Individuals who can afford better healthcare should be able to pay for such.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
every man for himself and to hell with everyone else.
Ahh....god bless America.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
every man for himself and to hell with everyone else.
Ahh....god bless America.
That's not what I advocate at all. It's just that you expect the federal government to help your fellow man but you won't do it yourself. Who's the selfish one?
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
That's not what I advocate at all. It's just that you expect the federal government to help your fellow man but you won't do it yourself. Who's the selfish one?
I guess I could send out everyone money in the mail or maybe paypal I guess.
How long does it take to lick and stamp a million envelopes?
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
You have a strange notion of helping your fellow man.
Helping your next door neighbor would be good enough. If everyone did that then we wouldn't need the welfare.
My mistake, I though we were talking about health care.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
That's not what I advocate at all. It's just that you expect the federal government to help your fellow man but you won't do it yourself. Who's the selfish one?
can I do both...you know, personally help others and expect my federal gov't to help, too....?
Individuals who can afford better healthcare should be able to pay for such.
in britain everyone is entitled to care/treatment under the NHS (national health system) for free... if you happen to be a millionaire or wish to take out a seperate medical insurance for private care then this can be done also... BUPA being one of these private health care organisations. Obviously this enables richer people to pay for the service if they wish and enables them to beat queues and maybe have a recovery bed in a more salubrious surrounding, but the NHS system in Britain, whilst not perfect, is a far more EFFICIENT system than in the US.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
in britain everyone is entitled to care/treatment under the NHS (national health system) for free... if you happen to be a millionaire or wish to take out a seperate medical insurance for private care then this can be done also... BUPA being one of these private health care organisations. Obviously this enables richer people to pay for the service if they wish and enables them to beat queues and maybe have a recovery bed in a more salubrious surrounding, but the NHS system in Britain, whilst not perfect, is a far more EFFICIENT system than in the US.
See, when it comes to health care, efficient to you, me, and most of the rest of the world means that more people will have better healthcare and a nation has a healthier population. To corporatewhore, efficient means that insurance companies will run leaner business and make more money. Apparently making a profit on other people's misfortunes is a good thing for a society.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Liberals at their heart are extremely selfish. They look at what others have and want it. That's why they favor utilitarian nonsense programs that are designed to give them what they want.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Liberals at their heart are extremely selfish. They look at what others have and want it. That's why they favor utilitarian nonsense programs that are designed to give them what they want.
ha haaa haaaaaa
that's some funny shit...
at the heart if this conversation is the notion that people should take care of themselves...a conservative idea....thus, "don't take my tax dollars to pay for others health care"...which sound pretty selfish to me....
tell me again how that makes liberal selfish...or was it you that had some trouble in 12 grade English class...
Liberals at their heart are extremely selfish. They look at what others have and want it. That's why they favor utilitarian nonsense programs that are designed to give them what they want.
You should submit that to wikipedia under liberalism...it might stick
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
That's really not what I said at all. 12th grade English wasn't good to you, was it?
Then what exactly is our system more efficient at?
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Conservatism is fine with people taking care of eachother, so long as there is no unnatural change from the traditional order of society. The Puritans lived on common lands together and they could be considered a rather conservative society. They certainly took care of one another.
Conservatives don't believe the government must take care of your fellow man. We believe that we can do it just fine.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Conservatism is fine with people taking care of eachother, so long as there is no unnatural change from the traditional order of society. The Puritans lived on common lands together and they could be considered a rather conservative society. They certainly took care of one another.
Conservatives don't believe the government must take care of your fellow man. We believe that we can do it just fine.
right, which means a big ol' screw you to those who need help...which is pretty selfish...
and this "traditional order of society" you mention...who gets to define that...?
Liberalism is a bullshit ideology anyway so it can't get much worse! Maybe I could put photos of dogshit in that entry and pretty it up.
Why not just show a pic of it coming straight from the dogs ___ with you in the shot right next to it with a huge smile giving the thumbs up?
That would be worthwhile...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Universal health care is not the answer. Canada and Europe have disastrous systems and those from this country with money come here for care. It is proven every day that the government screws everything up. You want to put your health in their hands? Crazy. I agree that the costs are high, but it draws the best doctors and research. It costs billions to make new medicine and many times the drug companies don't get a cent if their research, patents, etc. go no where. We are the ones that want an easy fix for our problems: a pill. If people would take better care of themselves and not blame others for their ills, the problems would fix themselves.
Bullshit.....I have money....and I do not need to go pay to see a doctor....once again bullshit.....
Conservatism is fine with people taking care of eachother, so long as there is no unnatural change from the traditional order of society. The Puritans lived on common lands together and they could be considered a rather conservative society. They certainly took care of one another.
Conservatives don't believe the government must take care of your fellow man. We believe that we can do it just fine.
You use the Puritans as a conservative example because they lived on common land and they took care of each other... sounds like a small socialist society.
You talk about the old days of everyone helping their neighbor, but in the next breath you support private business, only the strong survive, and rich people deserve better healthcare if they can afford it. It's not just the government to blame.
You can't have it both ways. Our society (especially young people) has moved to a very selfish one... It's not the quaint little towns and settlements that you love so much anymore. I'm not saying the federal gov't helps the situation all that much, but people are selfish these days (especially young people)... it's a dog eat dog world and role models are the rich and famous.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Our society (especially young people) has moved to a very selfish one... It's not the quaint little towns and settlements that you love so much anymore. I'm not saying the federal gov't helps the situation all that much, but people are selfish these days (especially young people)... it's a dog eat dog world and role models are the rich and famous.
Couldn't agree more. But I do think we can have it both ways. Get rid of ever-present government first and then address these issues.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
There is not one shred of truth to that statement. Efficient in what way? Shorter lines? That is not the economic measure of efficiency, Norway.
Money spent on service received. You pay a lot, and receive comparatively little. (although your top-end people get super service, of course)
You measure efficiency by looking at the number of dollars that are wasted on healthcare that could be spent on other things. Naturally, when government runs a program, it will waste more than private industry would because government is required to provide services to you. Private industry can turn you away.
So since the government by definition wastes, it doesn't matter whether it wastes 1 of your dollars or 100.000 of them? That government must waste more than private is not accurate either, although it would depend heavily on your definition of what waste (and efficiency) is. I would say putting aside entire floors in hospitals to manage payment from all the insurance schemes is a waste of time and money if the purpose is the health of the people.
I like how you frequently trot out this "efficiency" argument as though it's actually true. Economically speaking, there is no efficiency in anything government does. Anything government does would be done more efficiently by a private company. The fact is, there are some activities that are public goods and government would not be best for those activities.
You aren't refuting as much as just throwing ideology at me here. My "efficiency" argument holds, and is based from the most recent reports from the World Health Organization. You pay the most, have a ridiculous amount of uninsured people, and lag behind on measures like infant mortality. As a nation, you do get outperformed by almost all other industrial on simple measures for public health. And you are the ones with the private sector involved in the healthcare the most. I'm talking factual data here, not economic liberalism 101 talking points.
Universal Healthcare is not a public good. It can be divided and used up by individuals. Individuals who can afford better healthcare should be able to pay for such.
Oh, but if the health of the people is not in the interest of the people, then what is? And universal healthcare by itself does not actually in itself bar that some people can buy "better" at private clinics. That depends on how you set it up. It's fundamentally about having decent care for all the people, instead of spectacular care for some of them.
By the way: To you, what are public goods that cannot be privatized anyway?
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Liberals at their heart are extremely selfish. They look at what others have and want it. That's why they favor utilitarian nonsense programs that are designed to give them what they want.
hm, i wonder why when he was asked he just says flatly no instead of sometimes free, sometimes a payment plan, sometimes a discount?
still, i would like to see the number of free surgeries or births he gave, especially compared to how many could've used medicare/aid
it was good of him to do, tho
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
0
g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
TODAY'S DEMOCRACY NOW!:
* Children's Defense Fund's Marian Wright Edelman Calls on Congress & Bush
Administration to Help the Country's Nine Million Children Without Health
Insurance *
As President Bush vows to veto a bill expanding the Children's Health
Insurance Program, Marian Wright Edelman says Washington must do far more to
help the nation's children and to truly leave no child behind.
In this country we neglect even our most prescious OUR CHILDREN!
Peace
Earle
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
* Children's Defense Fund's Marian Wright Edelman Calls on Congress & Bush
Administration to Help the Country's Nine Million Children Without Health
Insurance *
As President Bush vows to veto a bill expanding the Children's Health
Insurance Program, Marian Wright Edelman says Washington must do far more to
help the nation's children and to truly leave no child behind.
In this country we neglect even our most prescious OUR CHILDREN!
Peace
Earle
"A new poll released Monday from Georgetown University’s Center for Children and Families shows 91% of Americans support expanding SCHIP to cover more children. It even has bipartisan support in Congress and approval, if tepid, from major drug insurance companies. It sounds like a no-brainer, but there's an obstacle. President Bush has vowed to veto the bill. Speaking last week at a healthcare forum in Maryland, he explained why."
"He made a comment a few weeks ago about -- just everybody can get healthcare; just take them to the emergency room. Well, you can go to the emergency room, but that means you're going to spend thousands and thousands more taxpayer dollars to have people go to an emergency room, when we could have prevented that through primary care.That same asthma, if it gets more serious and the parents have to take their children to the emergency room, is going to cost about $11,000 "
AMY GOODMAN: Marian Wright Edelman, who is President Bush listening to? Who are the forces arrayed against children, poor children, getting health insurance and the increase on the cigarette tax?
MARIAN WRIGHT EDELMAN: Well, that’s a good question. I think it must be the insurance industry that wants to protect their profits, because he certainly is not listening to the American people, who -- you know, 90% of whom want to have healthcare for all children and provide comprehensive healthcare
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
National defense, police, roads. They can't be divided up individually or bought in units. Everyone uses them or no one.
Sure they can. Private security, walled in neighbourhoods, roads you have to pay per kilometre to the company that built it. It's not that it can't be done. But why is socialized protection something you must have, while socialized healthcare is such an impossibility and abomination? They are both concerned with the individuals health, are they not? It's really about ideology and values. I say include healthcare in those values, as they are in most other comparable countries, and to most of the american public as well.
Or, if you're gonna be consistent principally, also denounce military, police and free roads.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Comments
LOL , & to qualify for said Medicaid . U have to make under a certain amount of $$$ per year. if you make over that your screwed ... & the costs of personal ins , can cost as much as 800$ a month per person !
i aint poor , but i certainly aint rich !
11/91 chicago
7/11/95 chicago
6/29/98 chicago
5/30/00 london UK
6/4/00 manchester UK
10/8/00 alpine valley
10/9/00 chicago
6/18/03 chicago
PLAY ALASKA U PUSSIES
LOL
There is not one shred of truth to that statement. Efficient in what way? Shorter lines? That is not the economic measure of efficiency, Norway.
You measure efficiency by looking at the number of dollars that are wasted on healthcare that could be spent on other things. Naturally, when government runs a program, it will waste more than private industry would because government is required to provide services to you. Private industry can turn you away.
I like how you frequently trot out this "efficiency" argument as though it's actually true. Economically speaking, there is no efficiency in anything government does. Anything government does would be done more efficiently by a private company. The fact is, there are some activities that are public goods and government would not be best for those activities.
Universal Healthcare is not a public good. It can be divided and used up by individuals. Individuals who can afford better healthcare should be able to pay for such.
-Enoch Powell
Ahh....god bless America.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
That's not what I advocate at all. It's just that you expect the federal government to help your fellow man but you won't do it yourself. Who's the selfish one?
-Enoch Powell
I guess I could send out everyone money in the mail or maybe paypal I guess.
How long does it take to lick and stamp a million envelopes?
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
You have a strange notion of helping your fellow man.
Helping your next door neighbor would be good enough. If everyone did that then we wouldn't need the welfare.
-Enoch Powell
My mistake, I though we were talking about health care.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
can I do both...you know, personally help others and expect my federal gov't to help, too....?
in britain everyone is entitled to care/treatment under the NHS (national health system) for free... if you happen to be a millionaire or wish to take out a seperate medical insurance for private care then this can be done also... BUPA being one of these private health care organisations. Obviously this enables richer people to pay for the service if they wish and enables them to beat queues and maybe have a recovery bed in a more salubrious surrounding, but the NHS system in Britain, whilst not perfect, is a far more EFFICIENT system than in the US.
See, when it comes to health care, efficient to you, me, and most of the rest of the world means that more people will have better healthcare and a nation has a healthier population. To corporatewhore, efficient means that insurance companies will run leaner business and make more money. Apparently making a profit on other people's misfortunes is a good thing for a society.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Yes, that's why he did medical services for free.
Liberals at their heart are extremely selfish. They look at what others have and want it. That's why they favor utilitarian nonsense programs that are designed to give them what they want.
-Enoch Powell
That's really not what I said at all. 12th grade English wasn't good to you, was it?
-Enoch Powell
ha haaa haaaaaa
that's some funny shit...
at the heart if this conversation is the notion that people should take care of themselves...a conservative idea....thus, "don't take my tax dollars to pay for others health care"...which sound pretty selfish to me....
tell me again how that makes liberal selfish...or was it you that had some trouble in 12 grade English class...
You should submit that to wikipedia under liberalism...it might stick
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
False.
-Enoch Powell
Liberalism is a bullshit ideology anyway so it can't get much worse! Maybe I could put photos of dogshit in that entry and pretty it up.
-Enoch Powell
Then what exactly is our system more efficient at?
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
not false...it's true...
Conservatism is fine with people taking care of eachother, so long as there is no unnatural change from the traditional order of society. The Puritans lived on common lands together and they could be considered a rather conservative society. They certainly took care of one another.
Conservatives don't believe the government must take care of your fellow man. We believe that we can do it just fine.
-Enoch Powell
right, which means a big ol' screw you to those who need help...which is pretty selfish...
and this "traditional order of society" you mention...who gets to define that...?
Why not just show a pic of it coming straight from the dogs ___ with you in the shot right next to it with a huge smile giving the thumbs up?
That would be worthwhile...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Bullshit.....I have money....and I do not need to go pay to see a doctor....once again bullshit.....
You use the Puritans as a conservative example because they lived on common land and they took care of each other... sounds like a small socialist society.
You talk about the old days of everyone helping their neighbor, but in the next breath you support private business, only the strong survive, and rich people deserve better healthcare if they can afford it. It's not just the government to blame.
You can't have it both ways. Our society (especially young people) has moved to a very selfish one... It's not the quaint little towns and settlements that you love so much anymore. I'm not saying the federal gov't helps the situation all that much, but people are selfish these days (especially young people)... it's a dog eat dog world and role models are the rich and famous.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Couldn't agree more. But I do think we can have it both ways. Get rid of ever-present government first and then address these issues.
-Enoch Powell
So since the government by definition wastes, it doesn't matter whether it wastes 1 of your dollars or 100.000 of them? That government must waste more than private is not accurate either, although it would depend heavily on your definition of what waste (and efficiency) is. I would say putting aside entire floors in hospitals to manage payment from all the insurance schemes is a waste of time and money if the purpose is the health of the people.
You aren't refuting as much as just throwing ideology at me here. My "efficiency" argument holds, and is based from the most recent reports from the World Health Organization. You pay the most, have a ridiculous amount of uninsured people, and lag behind on measures like infant mortality. As a nation, you do get outperformed by almost all other industrial on simple measures for public health. And you are the ones with the private sector involved in the healthcare the most. I'm talking factual data here, not economic liberalism 101 talking points.
Oh, but if the health of the people is not in the interest of the people, then what is? And universal healthcare by itself does not actually in itself bar that some people can buy "better" at private clinics. That depends on how you set it up. It's fundamentally about having decent care for all the people, instead of spectacular care for some of them.
By the way: To you, what are public goods that cannot be privatized anyway?
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
National defense, police, roads. They can't be divided up individually or bought in units. Everyone uses them or no one.
-Enoch Powell
hm, i wonder why when he was asked he just says flatly no instead of sometimes free, sometimes a payment plan, sometimes a discount?
still, i would like to see the number of free surgeries or births he gave, especially compared to how many could've used medicare/aid
it was good of him to do, tho
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
* Children's Defense Fund's Marian Wright Edelman Calls on Congress & Bush
Administration to Help the Country's Nine Million Children Without Health
Insurance *
As President Bush vows to veto a bill expanding the Children's Health
Insurance Program, Marian Wright Edelman says Washington must do far more to
help the nation's children and to truly leave no child behind.
Listen/Watch/Read
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/24/1431211
In this country we neglect even our most prescious OUR CHILDREN!
Peace
Earle
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
"A new poll released Monday from Georgetown University’s Center for Children and Families shows 91% of Americans support expanding SCHIP to cover more children. It even has bipartisan support in Congress and approval, if tepid, from major drug insurance companies. It sounds like a no-brainer, but there's an obstacle. President Bush has vowed to veto the bill. Speaking last week at a healthcare forum in Maryland, he explained why."
"He made a comment a few weeks ago about -- just everybody can get healthcare; just take them to the emergency room. Well, you can go to the emergency room, but that means you're going to spend thousands and thousands more taxpayer dollars to have people go to an emergency room, when we could have prevented that through primary care.That same asthma, if it gets more serious and the parents have to take their children to the emergency room, is going to cost about $11,000 "
AMY GOODMAN: Marian Wright Edelman, who is President Bush listening to? Who are the forces arrayed against children, poor children, getting health insurance and the increase on the cigarette tax?
MARIAN WRIGHT EDELMAN: Well, that’s a good question. I think it must be the insurance industry that wants to protect their profits, because he certainly is not listening to the American people, who -- you know, 90% of whom want to have healthcare for all children and provide comprehensive healthcare
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Or, if you're gonna be consistent principally, also denounce military, police and free roads.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965