Health Care in America

hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
edited July 2007 in A Moving Train
The Waiting Game
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: July 16, 2007

Being without health insurance is no big deal. Just ask President Bush. ''I mean, people have access to health care in America,'' he said last week. ''After all, you just go to an emergency room.''

This is what you might call callousness with consequences. The White House has announced that Mr. Bush will veto a bipartisan plan that would extend health insurance, and with it such essentials as regular checkups and preventive medical care, to an estimated 4.1 million currently uninsured children. After all, it's not as if those kids really need insurance -- they can just go to emergency rooms, right?

O.K., it's not news that Mr. Bush has no empathy for people less fortunate than himself. But his willful ignorance here is part of a larger picture: by and large, opponents of universal health care paint a glowing portrait of the American system that bears as little resemblance to reality as the scare stories they tell about health care in France, Britain, and Canada.

The claim that the uninsured can get all the care they need in emergency rooms is just the beginning. Beyond that is the myth that Americans who are lucky enough to have insurance never face long waits for medical care.

Actually, the persistence of that myth puzzles me. I can understand how people like Mr. Bush or Fred Thompson, who declared recently that ''the poorest Americans are getting far better service'' than Canadians or the British, can wave away the desperation of uninsured Americans, who are often poor and voiceless. But how can they get away with pretending that insured Americans always get prompt care, when most of us can testify otherwise?

A recent article in Business Week put it bluntly: ''In reality, both data and anecdotes show that the American people are already waiting as long or longer than patients living with universal health-care systems.''

A cross-national survey conducted by the Commonwealth Fund found that America ranks near the bottom among advanced countries in terms of how hard it is to get medical attention on short notice (although Canada was slightly worse), and that America is the worst place in the advanced world if you need care after hours or on a weekend.

We look better when it comes to seeing a specialist or receiving elective surgery. But Germany outperforms us even on those measures -- and I suspect that France, which wasn't included in the study, matches Germany's performance.

Besides, not all medical delays are created equal. In Canada and Britain, delays are caused by doctors trying to devote limited medical resources to the most urgent cases. In the United States, they're often caused by insurance companies trying to save money.

This can lead to ordeals like the one recently described by Mark Kleiman, a professor at U.C.L.A., who nearly died of cancer because his insurer kept delaying approval for a necessary biopsy. ''It was only later,'' writes Mr. Kleiman on his blog, ''that I discovered why the insurance company was stalling; I had an option, which I didn't know I had, to avoid all the approvals by going to 'Tier II,' which would have meant higher co-payments.''

He adds, ''I don't know how many people my insurance company waited to death that year, but I'm certain the number wasn't zero.''

To be fair, Mr. Kleiman is only surmising that his insurance company risked his life in an attempt to get him to pay more of his treatment costs. But there's no question that some Americans who seemingly have good insurance nonetheless die because insurers are trying to hold down their ''medical losses'' -- the industry term for actually having to pay for care.

On the other hand, it's true that Americans get hip replacements faster than Canadians. But there's a funny thing about that example, which is used constantly as an argument for the superiority of private health insurance over a government-run system: the large majority of hip replacements in the United States are paid for by, um, Medicare.

That's right: the hip-replacement gap is actually a comparison of two government health insurance systems. American Medicare has shorter waits than Canadian Medicare (yes, that's what they call their system) because it has more lavish funding -- end of story. The alleged virtues of private insurance have nothing to do with it.

The bottom line is that the opponents of universal health care appear to have run out of honest arguments. All they have left are fantasies: horror fiction about health care in other countries, and fairy tales about health care here in America.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
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Comments

  • JuberooJuberoo Posts: 472
    Sigh!
    Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.

    A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.

    Pro-life by choice.
  • I really hope America can pull itself out of this growing despair, it's pulling down all of North America in the process. Especially with issues like this.

    It's becoming critical.

    Can you imagine when they start rolling out the RFID chips?

    It's coming, and they' will be used for everything. All purchases, doctor visits, travel to anywhere. What if they decide to eliminate paper money after that?

    Don't laugh. It could happen tomorrow with this type of snap your fingers legislation.

    All they have to do is turn ioff your chip and you're screwed. Can't buy anything, can't go anywhere...nightmare.

    America get together and unite against this type of legislation.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • Thanks for posting this hippiemom.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    That's why I refer to my insurance card as "bling". No, really, I do.
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    professional liars, all of them, 99% of the politicians, virtually all the mainstream talking heads.

    they pretend to care, as bush in 2000 saying he was ever so concerned about all the ppl w/o health insurance or they flat out don't give a shit like ron paul

    how can they justify a fucking health care system that is pretty much ran on giving as little treatment as possible to save money

    profit shouldn't come before ppl's lives and it's pathetic and sick that not only they get away w/ it but how they rationalize and spin it
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Why we continue to call on the government to help this situation is beyond me. They've proven they can't do anything effectively and/or efficiently, so we need to stop relying on them to do anything for us.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • dmitrydmitry Posts: 136
    i'm from the government, and i'm here to help you
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    Answer? Entrust your health to the federal government! They know exactly how to help you! They'll never let you down!

    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"
    -Ronald Reagan
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • KannKann Posts: 1,146
    know1 wrote:
    Why we continue to call on the government to help this situation is beyond me. They've proven they can't do anything effectively and/or efficiently, so we need to stop relying on them to do anything for us.

    Some people believe that some needs should be universal and not for sale :
    health, clean water... If these people are a majority in your country then your government must listen to this and offer that service. Why isn't there some kind of referendum on the subject by the way?
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    we have medicaid for those who can't afford health insurance.
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    we have medicaid for those who can't afford health insurance.

    But that's not egalitarian enough! We need more government programs.

    The left's solution to everything is more, not less.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    But that's not egalitarian enough! We need more government programs.

    The left's solution to everything is more, not less.
    In the US' case, it wouldn't be as much more programs, than just fixing the half-assed ones you already have. Since the country spending 4 times more money on health than any comparable country barely stands up to comparison on the most basic measures, well...

    Maybe you should just get one comprehensive program instead of the myriad of programs you already have. Just HealthCare instead of insurance schemes, medicare, medicaid and so on. There would be no passing the buck along, as it would all be paid the same place anyway. Billing departments would be history and so on. And perhaps the prpgram would be allowed to use it's leverage to bring down prices on medicine as well.

    Left is not equal to more programs. I for one don't need many programs. I want big simple ones solving real problems for real people. Health is to me such a no-brainer that I am slightly shocked to hear how it is done in the US. Our healthcare isn't perfect either ofcourse, but noone is flat out refused treatment at least. Besides, what is more efficient? Letting a building rot and having to do major overhaul to save it every 20 years, or just do some maintenance continously? Having people in earlier keeps them healthier, and thus the expensive last ditch measures may not have to be used.

    Anyway. I am a no good leftie and not ashamed of it!

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    Maybe you should just get one comprehensive program instead of the myriad of programs you already have....

    Once again, trial and error. Who knows?? Maybe it'll work! Why not? No need to look at silly old history. That does us no good. :D
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • inmytreeinmytree Posts: 4,741
    Answer? Entrust your health to the federal government! They know exactly how to help you! They'll never let you down!

    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"
    -Ronald Reagan

    please refer to #7....

    http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=22429
  • inmytree wrote:

    That argument doesn't work if you don't believe the government does anything right. There aren't any programs I believe are well-run.
    "All governments are murderers and liars."
    -Bill Hicks
  • That argument doesn't work if you don't believe the government does anything right. There aren't any programs I believe are well-run.


    Ever think that might have something to do with the people we let run them?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    That argument doesn't work if you don't believe the government does anything right. There aren't any programs I believe are well-run.
    ...
    Which is what i wonder...
    If the government cannot handle something such as basic health care to its own citizens... how can it Spread Democracy to a completely foriegn culture?
    How can it run a system that monitors its citizens to make sure the 'Bad Guys' aren't doing bad things? Do you want inept government workers watching what you do?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • HermanBloomHermanBloom Posts: 1,764
    Universal health care is not the answer. Canada and Europe have disastrous systems and those from this country with money come here for care. It is proven every day that the government screws everything up. You want to put your health in their hands? Crazy. I agree that the costs are high, but it draws the best doctors and research. It costs billions to make new medicine and many times the drug companies don't get a cent if their research, patents, etc. go no where. We are the ones that want an easy fix for our problems: a pill. If people would take better care of themselves and not blame others for their ills, the problems would fix themselves.
    SLC 11/2/95, Park City 6/21/98, Boise 11/3/00, Seattle 12/9/02, Vancouver 5/30/03, Gorge 9/1/05, Vancouver 9/2/05, Gorge 7/22/06, Gorge 7/23/06, Camden I 6/19/08, MSG I 6/24/08, MSG II 6/25/08, Hartford 6/27/08, Mansfield II 6/30/08; Eddie Albany 6/8/09, 6/9/09; Philly 10/30/09, 10/31/09; Boston 5/17/10
    I thought the world...Turns out the world thought me
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Universal health care is not the answer. Canada and Europe have disastrous systems and those from this country with money come here for care. It is proven every day that the government screws everything up. You want to put your health in their hands? Crazy. I agree that the costs are high, but it draws the best doctors and research. It costs billions to make new medicine and many times the drug companies don't get a cent if their research, patents, etc. go no where. We are the ones that want an easy fix for our problems: a pill. If people would take better care of themselves and not blame others for their ills, the problems would fix themselves.
    ...
    The Best Doctors money can buy... but who can afford them?
    And it seems to me... most of the people here who are against a National Health Care system.... are probably people with access to HealthCare (either through an annual income above the poverty line or through their employer). do you think that under government funding... the doctors become federal employeees? How does government funding change the doctor's skills?
    And you said it... the ones in Canada and Europe come here for the big ticket items (heart suyrgery, etc...), but do they come here for routine check-ups? Do they come here for a flu shot? Do they come here when they sprain their ankle playing soccer?
    Why not just provide a baseline coverage and let those of us who are gainfully employed to upgrade? I know that if I lose this job... I lose my coverage and have to fend for myself in the shark tank that is healthcare insurance. How many of you are in the same boat as I am?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Universal health care is not the answer. Canada and Europe have disastrous systems and those from this country with money come here for care. It is proven every day that the government screws everything up. You want to put your health in their hands? Crazy. I agree that the costs are high, but it draws the best doctors and research. It costs billions to make new medicine and many times the drug companies don't get a cent if their research, patents, etc. go no where. We are the ones that want an easy fix for our problems: a pill. If people would take better care of themselves and not blame others for their ills, the problems would fix themselves.

    How come police and fire aren't privatized? Are they more important than health...life itself?
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • JuberooJuberoo Posts: 472
    we have medicaid for those who can't afford health insurance.
    And why should we have to pay taxes to support your medicaid because you can't afford health insurance?

    When will the screwing stop?
    Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.

    A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.

    Pro-life by choice.
  • Ever think that might have something to do with the people we let run them?

    Absolutely.The problem is that there will always be extreme levels of corruption in politics. The cyclical nature of politics also ensures that even if you agree with a politician, you will probably disagree with his predecessor.
    "All governments are murderers and liars."
    -Bill Hicks
  • Absolutely.The problem is that there will always be extreme levels of corruption in politics. The cyclical nature of politics also ensures that even if you agree with a politician, you will probably disagree with his predecessor.

    I have high hopes that we will adapt to learn to address these problems and hold our representatives accountable. Certain people make good leaders and can do a good job serving the people but it takes all of us participating in the system to make a strong, worthwhile democracy.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    Cosmo wrote:
    Why not just provide a baseline coverage and let those of us who are gainfully employed to upgrade? I know that if I lose this job... I lose my coverage and have to fend for myself in the shark tank that is healthcare insurance. How many of you are in the same boat as I am?

    Exactly... and if we all had coverage for checkups and preventative care, it would lessen the demand for some of the big ticket expensive health care items.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • Say for example America was a recipe for something delicious...like a chocolate chip cookie. You need integrity of all the ingredients (not just some) for it to taste fantastic. If you use 95% super duper high quality chocolate chips and 5% sprinkles of dog shit, the cookie is ruined.

    People are the ingredients. Focus on improving the integrity of the ingredients.

    Interesting how for (some) self professed food connoisseurs, making and eating a shit sandwich (Iraq) is a fantastically delicious event.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    Answer? Entrust your health to the federal government! They know exactly how to help you! They'll never let you down!

    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"
    -Ronald Reagan


    yeah, reagan wouldn't know anything about increasing the government, increasing governmental spending, corporate handouts, limiting rights (some constitutional)

    :rolleyes:

    how many tens of billions does his war on drugs cost us a year?
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    we have medicaid for those who can't afford health insurance.


    which dr's like ron paul refuses to accept
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    Canada and Europe have disastrous systems.

    i dont know how you know this living in Utah :rolleyes: but i've needed various things looked at over the years in hospitals and at doctors and i think our system is excellent... ok, i live in Scotland and its not exactly inner-city or a built up metropolis, but our National Health System, at least where i live, is still one of the greatest political achievements of modern day.

    FREE healthcare... whats not to like
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    dunkman wrote:
    i dont know how you know this living in Utah :rolleyes: but i've needed various things looked at over the years in hospitals and at doctors and i think our system is excellent... ok, i live in Scotland and its not exactly inner-city or a built up metropolis, but our National Health System, at least where i live, is still one of the greatest political achievements of modern day.

    FREE healthcare... whats not to like
    Exactly.

    Our system is a long way from shit. In need of improvements here and there, and everything is not smoothly run for all all the time. But generally, you need treatment, you get treatment. And without having to pay more than a small co-payment. (which will cease once you reach the limit of roughly 2-300$ for the year)

    I can only speak for myself I guess, but I have never had any trouble whatsoever with the provision of my health care. Infected eye with consequent visits to a specialist, no problem. Admitted to hospital for constipation (as it turned out) no problem. There are waiting lines for some surgery, yes. But it doesn't sound like the US system doesn't have waiting either.

    The point is that neiter the european or american health systems are shite in themselves, but I put forth the statement that the US one is A LOT more inefficient, and has far more people falling outside getting none but the most urgent treatment. That european health services pay for sending some of their surgery to the US is just a further sign of our system working well. You have to wait too long, they send you to the US at their expense and gets it done.

    Healthcare for all, no questions asked. And the funny thing is that it might even be cheaper than the system you have going now.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
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