The Good 'Ole Boy's Network Transcends All

NMyTree

Often on the Moving Train we have discussed, debated and argued over different political, religious, social, personal and gender issues. We see everything from generalized/sterotyped cliches to .......complex conceptual analysis..........to simple, straight-forward facts.

The one thing that keeps coming back to me, is how many of my gender are not only complete irresponsible, irrational, selfish, self-absorbed, hypocrotical, violent scum; but also how the "Men" of this world are truely the common denominator in much of our problems.

The Male gender's role and contribution to the world's problems transcends all religious and ethnic borders.

We debate the different religions, societies and ethnicities; but when you look at all the differences- you find the very same problems:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/07/AR2007050701936.html?hpid=topnews

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-03-27-our-view_x.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/19/national/main1913849.shtml


http://www.charlotte.com/115/story/116699.html

.......Men behaving like violent assholes!

It doesn't matter if it's a white guy, black guy, brown guy, red guy...whatever color or religion.


In the "Old Testament" if a woman was found to not be a virgin when she married, she could be legally killed by her husband.

Seems to have been written by a male, does it not? Certainly "god's words" favor the male. Or at least that's the way it has been interpreted for so very long.

The Koran seems to have some equally confusing (to many muslim men) passages, which apparently are exploited and used as a justification to deliver physical violence and denigrating behavior towards muslim women; by muslim men. I would suspect muslim women are equally confused by this and torn.

Certainly the passages of both the Bible and Koran deliver a similar message of women encouraged or forced to play the role of the submissive/subservient. Convienant (for all males), is it not?


I would venture to say, that 95% of the time something horrible happens on this planet, it comes down to some penis with ears as the cause of it all.

So why are so many of us males such assholes?

What can we do to educate and enlighten males ; not just change this behavorial pattern, but eliminate it.

Is that even possible? Are we stuck with the 'ole " you are what you are " cliche" ?

Do you think religions play a significant part in the role and behavior of males?

Or do you think religion was written and designed by males, to address the agenda of males.



One thing that I'm doing, as the father of two boys.

I've already started with my eldest and when my youngest is old enough to comprehend; I will continue to teach them to treat women with respect, consideration and kindness; as they would treat anyone else. Women will not be typecast into the roles of housemaids, cooks, sexual objects or bare-foot mothers who do our laundry.


Don't get me wrong, I am well aware there are women who are just as bad and who do horrible things. This is NOT a " all women are perfect, all men are bad message."

Rather, a discussion and encouragement for us as men to not only be more responsible and accountable; but maybe for all of us (men and women) to discuss some approaches in changing the tide of violent, damaging and troublesome male behavior.

Jeanwah

Thanks for bringing this up and Cheers for having and teaching the respect we all deserve.

I can't answer your question as I have no idea why a lot of guys are assholes. I'm sure it has to do with upbringing.

norm

NMyTree wrote:

One thing that I'm doing, as the father of two boys.

I've already started with my eldest and when my youngest is old enough to comprehend; I will continue to teach them to treat women with respect, consideration and kindness; as they would treat anyone else. Women will not be typecast into the roles of housemaids, cooks, sexual objects or bare-foot mothers who do our laundry.

i think you're doing it right there........raise you children to respect others - women, men, different races, religions etc......

surferdude

NMyTree wrote:

The one thing that keeps coming back to me, is how many of my gender are not only complete irresponsible, irrational, selfish, self-absorbed, hypocrotical, violent scum; but also how the "Men" of this world are truely the common denominator in much of our problems.

The Male gender's role and contribution to the world's problems transcends all religious and ethnic borders.

Well seeing as I believe in equality of the sexes nothing has ever been shown to me that women would fuck up any less or be any less of a tyrant than a man.

Breathing air is also a common denominator in all the problems you've sited. A don't suggest you go without though.

Your opening sentence applies equally to women. Fot all the maternal instinct people mythologically allude to women having they also do the most amount of child abuse.

We are all the same.

NMyTree

surferdude wrote:

Well seeing as I believe in equality of the sexes nothing has ever been shown to me that women would fuck up any less or be any less of a tyrant than a man.

Breathing air is also a common denominator in all the problems you've sited. A don't suggest you go without though.

Your opening sentence applies equally to women. Fot all the maternal instinct people mythologically allude to women having they also do the most amount of child abuse.

We are all the same.

That's all a given.

But that's not the focus of the subject matter.

Guess it doesn't matter how many disclaimers I put my posts, someone will always want to ignore them, get defensive and focus of being defensive. Oh well.

gue_barium

Jeanwah wrote:

Thanks for bringing this up and Cheers for having and teaching the respect we all deserve.

I can't answer your question as I have no idea why a lot of guys are assholes. I'm sure it has to do with upbringing.

That's certainly part of it. It is a part that has a lot to do with culture.

Awhile back I did a lot of reading on early America, and then even more on the the Civil War era. As I was reading Nmytree's post I got to thinking about the bio's I read on Lee, Grant, Lincoln, Jackson, and many more. I do recall being impressed with the culture of Dixie before the Civil war. Among the upper class and educated of the South, within that culture, men weren't expected to marry until they were in their early 30's with a career and prospects well in sight. Often they married women in their late teens and early 20's. In a biological/intellectual sort of way this jibes with the way men and women develop not only within a culture/community of intellect, but in a human lifespan sort of way, and the biological clock.

Does that make any sense?

NMyTree

gue_barium wrote:

That's certainly part of it. It is a part that has a lot to do with culture.

Awhile back I did a lot of reading on early America, and then even more on the the Civil War era. As I was reading Nmytree's post I got to thinking about the bio's I read on Lee, Grant, Lincoln, Jackson, and many more. I do recall being impressed with the culture of Dixie before the Civil war. Among the upper class and educated of the South, within that culture, men weren't expected to marry until they were in their early 30's with a career and prospects well in sight. Often they married women in their late teens and early 20's. In a biological/intellectual sort of way this jibes with the way men and women develop not only within a culture/community of intellect, but in a human lifespan.

Does that make any sense?

Yeah, it certainly does.

Rushlimbo

If I was a woman I'd be a lesbian.

surferdude

NMyTree wrote:

That's all a given.

But that's not the focus of the subject matter.

Well what is the focus of the subject matter? That men show human traits and you don't believe women would in the same position.

In one sentence you say "This is NOT a " all women are perfect, all men are bad message."" But then in the next sentence you focus solely on men to be "more responsible and accountable" while focusing solely on "troublesome male behavior."

It's not male behavior, it's human behavior.

chopitdown

teach your kids to be real men. Men who stand up for principle, don't resort to violence to get their way, take responsibility if something goes wrong, know how to win and lose with dignitiy, know how to treat a lady with respect (which does not mean that women are less then men by any means). Teach them to have a purpose and to enjoy work, not have everything handed to them. And that it's never ok to order any drink at a bar that has the phrase or eludes to sex or orgasms in it's name, unless it's for someone else.

I think religion has been used by many men to justify keeping women "in their place" which is terrible. Women and men are equal and have different abilities and skills, which doesn't make one or the other superior...it makes them different.

gue_barium

chopitdown wrote:

teach your kids to be real men.

Let kids be kids.

surferdude

chopitdown wrote:

teach your kids to be real men. Men who stand up for principle, don't resort to violence to get their way, take responsibility if something goes wrong, know how to win and lose with dignitiy, know how to treat a lady with respect (which does not mean that women are less then men by any means). Teach them to have a purpose and to enjoy work, not have everything handed to them. And that it's never ok to order any drink at a bar that has the phrase or eludes to sex or orgasms in it's name, unless it's for someone else.

Why does there have to be a sexist approach?

Shouldn't it be "Teach your kids to be real people. A person who stands up for principle, don't resort to violence to get their way, take responsibility if something goes wrong, know how to win and lose with dignitiy, know how to treat a person with respect. Teach them to have a purpose and to enjoy work, not have everything handed to them."

chopitdown

gue_barium wrote:

Let kids be kids.

yes, but while they are kids begin to instill values of adults in them. I'm not saying not to play and enjoy life. But begin to look out for others, share, work together etc... we have a generation now that doesn't look out for others and is increasingly selfish..which in my mind is a major part of the problem.

gue_barium

chopitdown wrote:

yes, but while they are kids begin to instill values of adults in them. I'm not saying not to play and enjoy life. But begin to look out for others, share, work together etc... we have a generation now that doesn't look out for others and is increasingly selfish..which in my mind is a major part of the problem.

example is the greatest teacher.

or, if anyone must install anything as a parent, independence is a good start.

chopitdown

surferdude wrote:

Why does there have to be a sexist approach?

Shouldn't it be "Teach your kids to be real people. A person who stands up for principle, don't resort to violence to get their way, take responsibility if something goes wrong, know how to win and lose with dignitiy, know how to treat a person with respect. Teach them to have a purpose and to enjoy work, not have everything handed to them."

i'm ok with using your semantics.

Kann

surferdude wrote:

Well seeing as I believe in equality of the sexes nothing has ever been shown to me that women would fuck up any less or be any less of a tyrant than a man.

Breathing air is also a common denominator in all the problems you've sited. A don't suggest you go without though.

Your opening sentence applies equally to women. Fot all the maternal instinct people mythologically allude to women having they also do the most amount of child abuse.

We are all the same.

We are not the same at all. Believing men and women are exacty the same in their behaviour as well as physically is a stupid idea which has lead to more miscomprehension between the two genders. Understanding the differences and not treating a gender as inferior because of these differences is the basis to tolerance.

surferdude

Kann wrote:

We are not the same at all. Believing men and women are exacty the same in their behaviour as well as physically is a stupid idea which has lead to more miscomprehension between the two genders. Understanding the differences and not treating a gender as inferior because of these differences is the basis to tolerance.

In our humaness we are all the same.

gue_barium

surferdude wrote:

In our humaness we are all the same.

Philosophically, not culturally, or biologically.

El_Kabong

Jeanwah wrote:

Thanks for bringing this up and Cheers for having and teaching the respect we all deserve.

I can't answer your question as I have no idea why a lot of guys are assholes. I'm sure it has to do with upbringing.

could a part be most religions teach a women is inferior to a man and women are responsible for sin?

surferdude

El_Kabong wrote:

could a part be most religions teach a women is inferior to a man and women are responsible for sin?

Which religions teach this? I've gone to a few different denominations; Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, and non-demoninational and I've never heard this idea being taught or preached.

I'm just wondering how your experience could be so much different than mine.

gue_barium

surferdude wrote:

Which religions teach this? I've gone to a few different denominations; Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, and non-demoninational and I've never heard this idea being taught or preached.

I'm just wondering how your experience could be so much different than mine.

In a sense, in the modern sense, I believe as you do, what you observe. When desperation comes, when hard times come and there is blame to be laid.... Ye Olde Book says it was the woman who gave in to Evil.

surferdude

gue_barium wrote:

Ye Olde Book says it was the woman who gave in to Evil.

And then the man gave into temptation. Who went first is immaterial.

gue_barium

surferdude wrote:

And then the man gave into temptation. Who went first is immaterial.

Alright, but at that point in YE Olde Book, who begat whom through whom?

I guess that's immaterial, too, since mitochondrial DNA shows us that woman begat woman.

Derrick

1 - Biologically, most men are ingrained with the unconscious desire to spread the seed as often as possible.
2 - Biologically, men are typically larger stronger and more aggressive than women.

Now, put those two things together and you will see situations where the sexual aggressor uses his power described in point 2 to achieve the need/desire from point 1.

If the sexual aggressor were the physically weaker gender, there would probably be a lot fewer births, possibly even to the point of no significant change in population in the past x thousand years humans have existed. Disease or other mass-tragedy may have rendered our species extinct with so few numbers. There are a lot of potential discussions that can begin with "WHAT IF the more sexual aggressive gender was the least powerful gender?"

Sexual aggression and assault are terrible terrible things, but I don't think it takes a scholar to understand why it happens, and why it will continue to happen. We can educate our young to the very best of our ability, but there is an element of biology our education will be fighting against....an "uphill battle" if you will.

gue_barium

Derrick wrote:

1 - Biologically, most men are ingrained with the unconscious desire to spread the seed as often as possible.
2 - Biologically, men are typically larger stronger and more aggressive than women.

Now, put those two things together and you will see situations where the sexual aggressor uses his power described in point 2 to achieve the need/desire from point 1.

If the sexual aggressor were the physically weaker gender, there would probably be a lot fewer births, possibly even to the point of no significant change in population in the past x thousand years humans have existed. Disease or other mass-tragedy may have rendered our species extinct with so few numbers. There are a lot of potential discussions that can begin with "WHAT IF the more sexual aggressive gender was the least powerful gender?"

Sexual aggression and assault are terrible terrible things, but I don't think it takes a scholar to understand why it happens, and why it will continue to happen. We can educate our young to the very best of our ability, but there is an element of biology our education will be fighting against....an "uphill battle" if you will.

You're using the ape-thing, and ignoring culture and art. Biology isn't everything. Even among apes, at least among the bonobos, sex is used as the release for communal differences.

onelongsong

i think you should check into the stats of women committing crimes.

Cosmo

Rushlimbo wrote:

If I was a woman I'd be a lesbian.

...
I'm not a woman and I'm still a lesbian.
...
Only... just the cute, lipstick lesbians... like Anne Heche... not the bulldyke, John Goodman softball player lesbians.

onelongsong

Derrick wrote:

1 - Biologically, most men are ingrained with the unconscious desire to spread the seed as often as possible.
2 - Biologically, men are typically larger stronger and more aggressive than women.

Now, put those two things together and you will see situations where the sexual aggressor uses his power described in point 2 to achieve the need/desire from point 1.

If the sexual aggressor were the physically weaker gender, there would probably be a lot fewer births, possibly even to the point of no significant change in population in the past x thousand years humans have existed. Disease or other mass-tragedy may have rendered our species extinct with so few numbers. There are a lot of potential discussions that can begin with "WHAT IF the more sexual aggressive gender was the least powerful gender?"

Sexual aggression and assault are terrible terrible things, but I don't think it takes a scholar to understand why it happens, and why it will continue to happen. We can educate our young to the very best of our ability, but there is an element of biology our education will be fighting against....an "uphill battle" if you will.

another female teacher was arrested for having sex with a male student. i lost track of how many that makes this year alone. many school girls participate in fights and violence; just watch the tele.
i think you need to do a little more research.

Byrnzie

What about the other side of the coin? What have women done to make postive change in the world and turn back the tide of 'male aggression'?

Please list for me all the women in history who have made a difference in the world re: reigning those men in who have taken us down the wrong path. In my experience it has been mostly men who have rocked the boat and made positive changes.

Please name me one female Che Guevara, a female Noam Chomsky, a female Albert Camus, a female Ho chi Min, or a female Malcolm X?

CaterinaA

Byrnzie wrote:

What about the other side of the coin? What have women done to make postive change in the world and turn back the tide of 'male aggression'?

Please list for me all the women in history who have made a difference in the world re: reigning those men in who have taken us down the wrong path. In my experience it has been mostly men who have rocked the boat and made positive changes.

Please name me one female Che Guevara, a female Noam Chomsky, a female Albert Camus, a female Ho chi Min, or a female Malcolm X?

Well, I guess it depends on what you think of "rocked the boat and made positive changes" means. For me, as a Latin American the legacy of Che Guevara is actually a very sad one, and not somebody I will list as a great man, as I will never admire anybody that condones violence, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

However, I believe that Rigoberta Menchu, Rosa Parks, Eva Peron, Mary Robinson, Susan Sontag, Marie Curie, among many others, are quite remarkable women that have left their mark and are still doing it.

Abookamongstthemany

Byrnzie wrote:

Please name me one female Che Guevara, a female Noam Chomsky, a female Albert Camus, a female Ho chi Min, or a female Malcolm X?

off the top of my head

Arundhati Roy
http://www.myspace.com/weroy

Emma Goldman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Goldman

Medha Patkar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medha_Patkar