"who started" is a question, not an answer

Puck78

your monitor must be longer than ours, farfromglorified, your answers look like papyrus...

El_Kabong

farfromglorified wrote:

Who is "they", EK?

in this case it would be the israeli government. they are bulldozing down homes to take land that isn't theirs, they are throwing stun grenades at women and children, they are shooting tear gas at ppl for holding a memorial for rachel corrie, they are attacking ambulances as they come to pick up ppl they just beat up for peacefully protesting what in reality are illegal actions. all this while pointing billions of dollars worth of guns

i don't allow my personal bias of seeing the palestinians as more of a victim and reactionary prevent me from saying the actions of hamas and hezbollah...are wrong and that is a big difference.

danmac

El_Kabong wrote:

in this case it would be the israeli government. they are bulldozing down homes to take land that isn't theirs, they are throwing stun grenades at women and children, they are shooting tear gas at ppl for holding a memorial for rachel corrie, they are attacking ambulances as they come to pick up ppl they just beat up for peacefully protesting what in reality are illegal actions. all this while pointing billions of dollars worth of guns

i don't allow my personal bias of seeing the palestinians as more of a victim and reactionary prevent me from saying the actions of hamas and hezbollah...are wrong and that is a big difference.

What he said.

Pacomc79

danmac wrote:

Since when, exactly?

I think you'll find that the Arabs and Jews lived and interacted very, very peacefully for 3000 years.

Before trying to reason why the Middle East the way it is, please do a bit of reading and educate yourself young man, and specifically about the period BEFORE OIL WAS DISCOVERED. The Arab-Israeli conflict the media keep blowing up to be bigger than it is, is not 3000 years old. It's a hundred, at most.

Until the demise of the Ottoman empire, which coincided with the end of WW1, the discovery of oil, and the British seizing colonial control over the region, jews and muslims didnt just coexist besides each other under 1300 years of Mohammedan rule, they fully integrated and interacted. Even the Quran, through the word of Mohammed, recognises the jews as 'People of the Book', and the similarities in the two religions are incredible, and have more to do with each other than Christianity.

Look at how the Sultans treated the Christians in Jerusalem once they recaptured the city from the Crusaders. Then look at how they treated the jews.

Only white, european christians, until the current withering death dealt out to the 1.4 million Palestinians in Gaza, have committed genocide against both races. The jews and arabs are related through the 12 tribes .

Yes extremists on both sides (and on the third, the 'Christian' West) deliver rhetoric about 'wiping' each other out, but thats all it is. Minorities in power. The peopel couldnt give a shit. THe people want a quiet peaceful life. Withdraw all western interests, and then we will have the peace that existed until the end of the 19th century.

Until the oil runs out, I can't see that happening.

very nice post. Some interesting stuff in there.

PaperPlates

Eva7 wrote:

well, here's my two cents then....
It was soon obvious to me that the actual crisis in Lebanon was well planned, and it is not necessary to read those articles I have linked nor to be familiar with the world politics to state so, but it is enough to look at the military operations being carried out to understand it.
The details about such plans are just being investigated and readily skipped by all the western media, and it is just ironic to me that we would need to know more about it. In the meantime, the massacre in Gaza is being pretty much suppressed. But there are all the elements to judge what is going on, in front of our eyes.
But above all... it is so important what I think, or what you think, or what EK thinks?

Just so you know, I wasn't picking at you. I respect your opinions, tho some I tend to see differently. However, the way in which you present your opinions directly results in how someone is going to take those opinions. And you do it well.

Eva7

PaperPlates wrote:

Just so you know, I wasn't picking at you. I respect your opinions, tho some I tend to see differently. However, the way in which you present your opinions directly results in how someone is going to take those opinions. And you do it well.

I know you weren't picking at me! I just thought yours was a fair request. but at this point now I am curious to hear your two cents.

farfromglorified

El_kabong wrote:

they are taking land at gunpoint and viciously attacking ppl who don't deserve it, the collective punishment...

farfromglorified wrote:

Who is "they", EK?

El_Kabong wrote:

in this case it would be the israeli government.

There it is. Until you, the media, and anyone else realizes that "they" is both sides, this conflict will never be solved. Both "IDF" and "Hezbollah", "Israeli" and "Palestinian" can be put in the place of your "they" above. But you'll spend pages on half and pay brief lip service to the other. And it is that mindset that leads to the guns, the bombs, the rockets, the death.

i don't allow my personal bias of seeing the palestinians as more of a victim and reactionary prevent me from saying the actions of hamas and hezbollah...are wrong and that is a big difference

It is a big difference. It is that difference that allows the other side of your bias to do exactly the same. And the bombs keep coming.......

El_Kabong

farfromglorified wrote:

There it is. Until you, the media, and anyone else realizes that "they" is both sides, this conflict will never be solved. Both "IDF" and "Hezbollah", "Israeli" and "Palestinian" can be put in the place of your "they" above. But you'll spend pages on half and pay brief lip service to the other. And it is that mindset that leads to the guns, the bombs, the rockets, the death.



It is a big difference. It is that difference that allows the other side of your bias to do exactly the same. And the bombs keep coming.......

palestinians steal land? palestinians bulldoze down israeli homes and illegally set up their own? large numbers of israelis live w/ malnutrtion b/c of their actions?

sorry, but the scope of damage are not nearly the same. perhaps if israel would lift it's boot heel from the throats of the palestinians groups like hezbollah and hamas would have nothing to work w/.

what some are saying is israel needs to change nothing, just the palestinians, and when they do things will be better. ignoring that other side will not solve the problem, that's what keeps the bombs falling. both sides are being raised to fanatically hate the other.

you also left out the context of that thread title, which was made when miller had his 'raises glass to israel' thread, his comments about blessing their fine military, illana saying palestine doesn't have a right to exist, 69charger saying israel is innocent and it's all b/c of the palestinians that they act the way they do...one poster even said likened palestinians to the schoolyard bully and israel as the little kid finally sticking up for themself!...and so i was countering that one sided view by saying maybe this is what drives them to such extreme measures...see, i think those responses are extreme, on the other hand the actions of israel are constantly justified...i still see a big difference in that

my view is BOTH need to stop, not just one, so there would be no bombs to keep coming.

not even you post the way you are requiring me to. you never post the merits of the tax system, only how it's unfair to you. you don't argue that 1,000's:1 ceo to worker profits is too much, you say go work somewhere else or be your own ceo...you allow your bias to color your posts just as i do, just as everyone else who posts here does.

farfromglorified

El_Kabong wrote:

palestinians steal land?

Yes. Is that not what some seek to do by eliminating Israel?

palestinians bulldoze down israeli homes and illegally set up their own?

Bulldoze? I doubt it. Shoot rockets onto? Yes.

large numbers of israelis live w/ malnutrtion b/c of their actions?

I doubt it. But large numbers of israelis live w/ fear b/c of their actions. And large numbers of israelis die b/c of their actions.

sorry, but the scope of damage are not nearly the same.

And that means it's somehow excusable, or somehow good, or somehow less evil? Do you think that if the weaponry were switched that somehow the death toll would not be?

perhaps if israel would lift it's boot heel from the throats of the palestinians groups like hezbollah and hamas would have nothing to work w/.

Is that not what Israel has done in Lebanon over the past 15 years?

what some are saying is israel needs to change nothing, just the palestinians, and when they do things will be better.

And that is ridiculous. As is the opposite that you espouse above.

ignoring that other side will not solve the problem, that's what keeps the bombs falling. both sides are being raised to fanatically hate the other.

Yes.

you also left out the context of that thread title, which was made when miller had his 'raises glass to israel' thread, his comments about blessing their fine military, illana saying palestine doesn't have a right to exist, 69charger saying israel is innocent and it's all b/c of the palestinians that they act the way they do...one poster even said likened palestinians to the schoolyard bully and israel as the little kid finally sticking up for themself!...and so i was countering that one sided view by saying maybe this is what drives them to such extreme measures...see, i think those responses are extreme, on the other hand the actions of israel are constantly justified...i still see a big difference in that

Ok.

my view is BOTH need to stop, not just one, so there would be no bombs to keep coming.

Ok. Then perhaps you should include BOTH in your statements above.

not even you post the way you are requiring me to. you never post the merits of the tax system, only how it's unfair to you.

But my arguments are not made to eliminate the tax system. My arguments are made to prevent the tax system from enslaving me. I could care less if you have a tax system. I don't point out the negative ends of the system any more than I point out the positive ends. I simply reject its right to hold me to an obligation by birth. That is it.

you don't argue that 1,000's:1 ceo to worker profits is too much, you say go work somewhere else or be your own ceo...you allow your bias to color your posts just as i do, just as everyone else who posts here does.

I do say that 400:1 ceo-to-worker pay is typically ridiculous. I simply reject any argument that says such a thing should be illegal or treated differently than anyone who is paid an inflated wage.

PaperPlates

Eva7 wrote:

I know you weren't picking at me! I just thought yours was a fair request. but at this point now I am curious to hear your two cents.

My two cents is that we (the USA GOVT anyways) should have stayed the hell out of the middle east, aquire oil via any other means until we can find some alternative, and let them fight each other all they want. At least then they wouldnt have any real reasons to fuck with us. That said, as to the quagmire we've found ourselves stuck in? Either we should finish what we started and go all out, or leave and let them sink or swim. Kinda like throwin your little kid into the pool, either swim, or drown. Unfortunately, I dont really even think the radical islamic threat is the one to worry about. That one's right in our face, and not usually very good at what they do. Its the other countries out there, that give appearances of common ground. Im not saying the threat isnt real. Theres just much bigger threats out there Im sure. Its a crazy world. It always has been. Every generation thinks theirs is worse than the last one.

farfromglorified

PaperPlates wrote:

My two cents is that we (the USA GOVT anyways) should have stayed the hell out of the middle east, aquire oil via any other means until we can find some alternative, and let them fight each other all they want.

That isn't bad.

At least then they wouldnt have any real reasons to fuck with us.

"Real reasons" probably don't matter.

That said, as to the quagmire we've found ourselves stuck in? Either we should finish what we started and go all out, or leave and let them sink or swim. Kinda like throwin your little kid into the pool, either swim, or drown.

They are not your "kids".

Unfortunately, I dont really even think the radical islamic threat is the one to worry about. That one's right in our face, and not usually very good at what they do. Its the other countries out there, that give appearances of common ground. Im not saying the threat isnt real. Theres just much bigger threats out there Im sure. Its a crazy world. It always has been. Every generation thinks theirs is worse than the last one.

This actually make a lot of sense.

PaperPlates

farfromglorified wrote:

That isn't bad.



"Real reasons" probably don't matter.



They are not your "kids".



This actually make a lot of sense.

"Real reasons" probably don't matter.

You're probably right. I was trying to be nice.

They are not your "kids".

No they are not.

This actually make a lot of sense.

Imagine that.
While not the most articulate fellow, it can happen when I get my words to match my thoughts.

rebornFixer

El_Kabong wrote:

i wonder why eva doesn't get criticized for posting links like some like to do to others? odd, that...

Because she has posted maybe, 1/8th of the links you have? If that? Sheesh.

Abookamongstthemany

reborncareerist wrote:

Because she has posted maybe, 1/8th of the links you have? If that? Sheesh.

She's also not on near as often

rebornFixer

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

She's also not on near as often

Alright, fair enough.

Abookamongstthemany

reborncareerist wrote:

Alright, fair enough.

phew

rebornFixer

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

phew

Kabong and I are reasonably cool, last I heard. People must have really been ragging on him if he is still bringing this issue up.

breakmarysfall

Eva7 wrote:

I agree. But there are some interesting news that are not coming out. In the meantime, hundreds people are being slaughtered. I agree, who started is not the point, the point is that it is not acceptable that our governments are accomplices of such crimes against humanity.


EU and the UN are shamefully accountable for their non-action.

ut the point is that the people of the "civilized world" can't accept all this. No matter who started. The people must speak out against this crazy violence escalation and the hypocrisy of our governments. Stop debating about who is wrong and who is right. Stop debating whose land was there before. This is all product and weapon of war propaganda. The facts talk by themselves. The facts are thousands innocent victims in Iraq, Palestine, Israel, Lebanon.

thanks Eva again for these smart words.
I had no idea that the weapons get delivered over Italian ground.
I just realize that Germany does not open the mouth at all. We support Israel, that is it and it is fully understood.
To me it seems that German hands are bounded.

But the EU is so much larger. Why do they not go hand in hand and speak out. Why are they so silent, all of them...

..Germany focus on the US again and forgets Europe... that to me is a shame as well!!!

diplomatic solution. ahah.

I wish to call out, I want to call out,
but our next vote is years ahead and for the rest you just be over- heart.
none single person has such a load voice... so lets hope for the media and a good education on the subject.

...and here goes another THANK YOU to you!
and of course El

Puck78

Eva7 wrote:

I agree. But there are some interesting news that are not coming out. In the meantime, hundreds people are being slaughtered. I agree, who started is not the point, the point is that it is not acceptable that our governments are accomplices of such crimes against humanity.
No matter who started, Israel is slaughtering civilians in Gaza and Lebanon with powerful wmd given for free from the US, passing through Italy. The EU and the UN are shamefully accountable for their non-action. Italy makes me sick with its hypocrisy, claiming to wish to find solutions while allowing the shipping of wmd from its territory.
And in all that, Hezbollah are to blame first, and responbile of all the Israeli slaughters, I agree, since they have given such a great chance to Israel to carry out their plans of occupation of Lebanon again.
But the point is that the people of the "civilized world" can't accept all this. No matter who started. The people must speak out against this crazy violence escalation and the hypocrisy of our governments. Stop debating about who is wrong and who is right. Stop debating whose land was there before. This is all product and weapon of war propaganda. The facts talk by themselves. The facts are thousands innocent victims in Iraq, Palestine, Israel, Lebanon.

I totally agree with Eva. Even more I find it a joke that they need to establish a conference for wednesday for this: when the "crisis" started the so-called world leaders were already together at the G8, and they could have moved faster to find a solution. Even more they decided the wednesday conference last friday and between friday and wednesday there's too many victims...

PaperPlates

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

She's also not on near as often

never mind.