"who started" is a question, not an answer
Eva7
Posts: 226
Just a few articles that pose the doubt....
"The Israeli invasion of Lebanon was planned between top Israeli officials and members of the Bush administration. On June 17 and 18, former Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and Likud Knesset member Natan Sharansky met with Vice President Dick Cheney at the American Enterprise Institute conference in Beaver Creek, Colorado. There, the impending Israeli invasions of both Gaza and Lebanon were discussed [...]"
http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/
War on Lebanon Planned for at least a Year
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14159.htm
US, UN give Israel green light for Lebanon slaughter
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_1030.shtml
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=EWE20060719&articleId=2760
http://www.counterpunch.org/Roberts07242006.html
From The Lebanese People To The So Called "Civilized" West
"Thank You"
http://fromisrael2lebanon.info/
"The Israeli invasion of Lebanon was planned between top Israeli officials and members of the Bush administration. On June 17 and 18, former Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and Likud Knesset member Natan Sharansky met with Vice President Dick Cheney at the American Enterprise Institute conference in Beaver Creek, Colorado. There, the impending Israeli invasions of both Gaza and Lebanon were discussed [...]"
http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/
War on Lebanon Planned for at least a Year
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14159.htm
US, UN give Israel green light for Lebanon slaughter
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_1030.shtml
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=EWE20060719&articleId=2760
http://www.counterpunch.org/Roberts07242006.html
From The Lebanese People To The So Called "Civilized" West
"Thank You"
http://fromisrael2lebanon.info/
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Since when, exactly?
I think you'll find that the Arabs and Jews lived and interacted very, very peacefully for 3000 years.
Before trying to reason why the Middle East the way it is, please do a bit of reading and educate yourself young man, and specifically about the period BEFORE OIL WAS DISCOVERED. The Arab-Israeli conflict the media keep blowing up to be bigger than it is, is not 3000 years old. It's a hundred, at most.
Until the demise of the Ottoman empire, which coincided with the end of WW1, the discovery of oil, and the British seizing colonial control over the region, jews and muslims didnt just coexist besides each other under 1300 years of Mohammedan rule, they fully integrated and interacted. Even the Quran, through the word of Mohammed, recognises the jews as 'People of the Book', and the similarities in the two religions are incredible, and have more to do with each other than Christianity.
Look at how the Sultans treated the Christians in Jerusalem once they recaptured the city from the Crusaders. Then look at how they treated the jews.
Only white, european christians, until the current withering death dealt out to the 1.4 million Palestinians in Gaza, have committed genocide against both races. The jews and arabs are related through the 12 tribes .
Yes extremists on both sides (and on the third, the 'Christian' West) deliver rhetoric about 'wiping' each other out, but thats all it is. Minorities in power. The peopel couldnt give a shit. THe people want a quiet peaceful life. Withdraw all western interests, and then we will have the peace that existed until the end of the 19th century.
Until the oil runs out, I can't see that happening.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
Maybe but i also think that going back to the 19th century to explain what is currently happening is not going to help at all. Look into the future, what they all want, what they all need, what they all should do. Otherwise the point the finger game can go on for another century without results and with more tragedy...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
I agree. But there are some interesting news that are not coming out. In the meantime, hundreds people are being slaughtered. I agree, who started is not the point, the point is that it is not acceptable that our governments are accomplices of such crimes against humanity.
No matter who started, Israel is slaughtering civilians in Gaza and Lebanon with powerful wmd given for free from the US, passing through Italy. The EU and the UN are shamefully accountable for their non-action. Italy makes me sick with its hypocrisy, claiming to wish to find solutions while allowing the shipping of wmd from its territory.
And in all that, Hezbollah are to blame first, and responbile of all the Israeli slaughters, I agree, since they have given such a great chance to Israel to carry out their plans of occupation of Lebanon again.
But the point is that the people of the "civilized world" can't accept all this. No matter who started. The people must speak out against this crazy violence escalation and the hypocrisy of our governments. Stop debating about who is wrong and who is right. Stop debating whose land was there before. This is all product and weapon of war propaganda. The facts talk by themselves. The facts are thousands innocent victims in Iraq, Palestine, Israel, Lebanon.
Excuse me? Did you read or glance through my post? Israel, the creation of it, the promotion of migration there, has been carried out since the late 19th century, until today, for the sole reason of acting as a foothold for US / UK imperial economic interests. Therefore, if what happened then is happening now, and those western interests were withdrawn, we would have a solution.
You want peace, go back to a time in history when there was peace, look at the overlying sociological conditions, then replicate them. Its not easy, granted, with their now being 7 million illegal occupiers of Palestinian land as opposed to just 50,000 a hundred or so years ago. But it can be worked out. If the US and UK would let go of their need for a government by proxy in the region.
Understanding what and why something happened is crucial to arriving at a solution now. Anybody who dismisses this simple process of greater political thought is blind and or uneducated.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Yes yes Eva. No matter who started it, who's side you're on, civillians are being targeted and killed which is never acceptable.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Ok ok thanks for the lessons, i just don't give a fuck about the past, keep bringing those things up it doesn't matter at all to me but i'm sure you'll find some people ready to argue you all day on that matter......
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Just a thought, but maybe its the frequency? Oh yea, and the fact that she offers well thought out opinions on the articles she quotes, (not this particular time tho) and is neither argumentative nor aggresive nor overly judgemental in her presentation. And I think she has a much better perspective on it as well. Ya get more flies with honey than vinegar.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
ahah, maybe because what I link is less interesting than what you link?
(If I was you, I wouldn't take criticism that bad... criticism always comes when something has touched on a sore point....)
how can i be overly judgemental or argumentative or aggressive if i don't offer any opinion and just post a link?
you guys should work on your points, they conflict and contradict each other way too much
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i don't, i just thought it was funny that they wouldn't have the balls to say it to you or suzannepjam
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
....do you mean that I sound like a parkinson-affected elderly who says the same obvious thing over and over???
Give them time, EK... give them time... by the way, believe me, there are worst things that can happen to you for researching than being criticized on this board.......
Absolutly not, it's just that i agree so much with you, i just can't word it the way you are. You can repeat those things a thousand times, it will never be enough...
edit: in case El Kabong would feel left over, i also mostly agree with you, and you can also repeat those things a thousand times
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
we are two then. the only problem is that usually who benefits from it has also all the means to protect such benefits from the public's eyes. So, I guess, it takes some effort to see behind the curtain.
well... in case you had meant that instead, I wouldn't blame you at all!!! LOL
if you insist... go take your medication now...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
well, here's my two cents then....
It was soon obvious to me that the actual crisis in Lebanon was well planned, and it is not necessary to read those articles I have linked nor to be familiar with the world politics to state so, but it is enough to look at the military operations being carried out to understand it.
The details about such plans are just being investigated and readily skipped by all the western media, and it is just ironic to me that we would need to know more about it. In the meantime, the massacre in Gaza is being pretty much suppressed. But there are all the elements to judge what is going on, in front of our eyes.
But above all... it is so important what I think, or what you think, or what EK thinks?
And you should read slowly. I said that you tend to be judgemental/aggresive in your PRESENTATION Of the articles. Nothing I said contradicted anything, other than you're not too accurate picture of yourself in your mind. My 2 cents. You asked.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
Is that a joke?
Anywho, while a lot of these articles seem a bit long on circumstance and hindsight, I don't think any of them are terribly off kilter. I'm a bit confused by the accusations, however. Eva, do you think that preplanning this signifies something nefarious? Taking into account everything we know about the conflict, are you surprised that Israel has these kind of plans?
Probably because this thread is not sarcastically titled "those poor israeli victims". And probably because the first line in the post is "Just a few articles that pose the doubt", rather than something like "Dick Cheney schemes to kill babies".
I never was surprised. Such new conflict with Lebanon was easily foreseen. Preplanning is nefarious only considering the fact that they (Israel, the US, the western politicians and media) tell a different version.
do you mean that people get usually deceived by the form and do not pay attention to the substabce? you could be right then.
that is 1 thread title out of how many? never had anything close to the cheney schemes to kill babies, tho...also, the complaint was lobed before that one...but it was nice in theory
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
That's pretty much what I'm saying. To pose a question in the form of a question is honest. To pose a question in the form of an answer is dishonest. And people are going to call out that dishonesty, regardless of the substance.
I don't even know what complaint you're talking about. I'm only speaking to my own reactions to the situations you described. If Eva would have said something like "it's obvious that Dick Cheney is behind this conflict" or "Israel was just looking for an opportunity to kill Lebanese civilians" and then, when challenged, claimed that she was only trying to "educate", I would take similar issue.
That's fair. But I'm not sure how different that version is. Just because there were plans in place does not mean that this war was unprovocated -- such plans cannot erase or justify the attrocious actions of Hezbollah. Certainly I agree with those who say this war is a disproportional response, but I'm not going to agree that this conflict was strongly desired or engineered.