Luis Posada Carriles - terrorist or not?

mammasan

El_Kabong wrote:

no, they are to blame...they were part of operation condor and were working for other regimes as well as the cia.

how can you plan bombs on airliners and not fully know what you are doing? how can you blow up a hotel and not know fully what you are doing? how can you assasinate a diplomat and not fully know what you are doing? the cia knew of the assasination, they didn't do anything until Letelier was killed. there was an american politician (ed koch> they also wanted to kill, they did something to stop that, but not Letelier's assasination

Just to add to what you have already stated, it was Pinochet who actually hired Posada and Bosch to carry out the Letelier assasination.

mammasan

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm not going to blindly defend anyone here. But I am going to defend these men called terrorists. Hear me out before you label me please.

These men were employed by government to carry out acts of terrorism. So the government is to be blamed. These men were performing acts for their country, they may not have fully understood what they were doing either. If it can be proven that these men were performing terrorism to their knowledge and without the sanctions of the CIA then they are to blame. Though it looks like the CIA and the Government are to blame for these people.

To another poster that said Democrats are no better. I think most people are in agreeance with you. I certainly am. I think the two-party system is seriously flawed. Canada has a multi-party system, but it's not much better. I think the NDP and maybe the Bloc have gained a minority government once or twice, but Liberals and Conservatives rule the government. We essentially have a two-party system, because it's nearly impossible for a party like CAP, The Green Party or The Canadian Christian Party to ever win. People think in terms of Liberal or Conservative, because the vast majority of voters don't read. They don't know anything about the people they are voting for. This past election I asked people "Who did you vote for?" most said "Conservative" so I asked "Why?" and they said "I don't know". The Cons ran a really good campaign and that's what got them elected. They only had an awesome campaign because they have a lot of contributions, I didn't see one TV add for CAP. The only TV spots were for Liberal, Conservative or NDP. All the debates were Liberal, Conservative, NDP and Bloc.

It's all fucked up anyway.

What about the string of bombings at Cuban resorts that Posada carried out in 1997 that resulted in the death of an Italian tourist. By that point he was no longer in the employ of the CIA. I can see your point that the government(s) that employedd these men to carry out these acts should be held responsible but that does not relieve them of their responsibilities. They willingly took the job to blow up an airliner with 73 people on board. These men are terrorists and while many people sit at home praising our government for fighting the War on Terror that very same government harbors two well known terrorists and refuses to let justice be served.

polaris

mammasan wrote:

I can see your point that the government(s) that employedd these men to carry out these acts should be held responsible but that does not relieve them of their responsibilities.

hence why they are finding safe shelter in the US ... they aren't terrorists if they do the bidding of the CIA or the US gov't ...

mammasan

polaris wrote:

hence why they are finding safe shelter in the US ... they aren't terrorists if they do the bidding of the CIA or the US gov't ...

Well of course to the US government they aren't terrorist because of that double standard we employ. To the rest of the world, especially to the families who's loved ones they killed, they are definetly terrorist.

I wonder how US citizens would react in the governments of all the countries who have been victims of our state sponsored terrorism where to suddenly form a Coalition of the Willing and state that you are either with them or against them and that they make no distinction between a country who sponsors terrorism and one that harbors them, them again our government is guilty of both.

polaris

mammasan wrote:

Well of course to the US government they aren't terrorist because of that double standard we employ. To the rest of the world, especially to the families who's loved ones they killed, they are definetly terrorist.

I wonder how US citizens would react in the governments of all the countries who have been victims of our state sponsored terrorism where to suddenly form a Coalition of the Willing and state that you are either with them or against them and that they make no distinction between a country who sponsors terrorism and one that harbors them, them again our government is guilty of both.

that is the point of this thread i guess ... like so many other things - its much easier to ignore it ...

mammasan

polaris wrote:

... like so many other things - its much easier to ignore it ...

Too true.

TheVoiceInside

polaris wrote:

that is the point of this thread i guess ... like so many other things - its much easier to ignore it ...

The US harbors terrorist?!! Holy Shit! Paris Hilton lost her dog!! what will she do?!! Oh wait there's at sale at Penny's!!

mammasan

TheVoiceInside wrote:

The US harbors terrorist?!! Holy Shit! Paris Hilton lost her dog!! what will she do?!! Oh wait there's at sale at Penny's!!

Last year Posada's extradition hearing received near zero coverage. No discussion about his involvement in the Cubana Air bombing or Letelier assasination. Now Paris Hilton getting a DUI that's covered adnausium.

TheVoiceInside

mammasan wrote:

Last year Posada's extradition hearing received near zero coverage. No discussion about his involvement in the Cubana Air bombing or Letelier assasination. Now Paris Hilton getting a DUI that's covered adnausium.

That just goes to show the press needs to get their heads out of their culo

rebornFixer

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

I'm sure theres gong to be someone who is blindly going to defend the actions that 'our' government has taken.

OK, someone's got to say it, and it might as well be me.
Most of the people who make blanket statements on here are NOT unequivocal supporters of the Bush government. Sure, there are a few. But most people prone to making "blind" comments are on the other end of the political spectrum. I think its telling that most on the "right" here either haven't commented or have come right out and said that this guy is indeed a terrorist.
Keep waiting, in other words.

Ahnimus

mammasan wrote:

What about the string of bombings at Cuban resorts that Posada carried out in 1997 that resulted in the death of an Italian tourist. By that point he was no longer in the employ of the CIA. I can see your point that the government(s) that employedd these men to carry out these acts should be held responsible but that does not relieve them of their responsibilities. They willingly took the job to blow up an airliner with 73 people on board. These men are terrorists and while many people sit at home praising our government for fighting the War on Terror that very same government harbors two well known terrorists and refuses to let justice be served.

Yea, the guy is a terrorist by any measure, but at the same time, he worked for the government and they allow him to be free even though he is a terrorist.

By the way nice sig.

polaris

reborncareerist wrote:

. But most people prone to making "blind" comments are on the other end of the political spectrum.

sure thing

rebornFixer

polaris wrote:

sure thing

Dismiss it all you want.

polaris

reborncareerist wrote:

Dismiss it all you want.

if you can explain to me how anyone can support george bush as president - i might give it a little more thought ...

rebornFixer

polaris wrote:

if you can explain to me how anyone can support george bush as president - i might give it a little more thought ...

I'm not qualified to answer, because I think he's a git. My comment was more about sheer numbers of posters on here, and the type of people a Pearl Jam board would tend to attract. There are way more anti-Bush people here than the converse. There are also way more people who tend to have "leftist" leaning political views. Statisically speaking, close-minded posts are more likely to come from that demographic. Its not because the left is "wrong" ... Its because Bush polarizes people on both ends, making them prone to rash statements.

Also, these posts make me laugh, because they are intended to goad "Bushies" into defending bad actions on the part of the U.S. government ... Based on my experience/observation (wasting too much time on here, probably), many of the people on the right here are also fed up with Bush's policies. Who is going to come on here and say that this man isn't a terrorist, and that he deserves to be sheltered? I guess no one, now that I've made a big deal about it ... But hopefully you get what I mean ...

Cosmo

you know what I wish?
I wish that ONE President would have the balls to come clean and air out America's dirty laundry, once and for all. Give us a clean slate by bareing out the truth... the cold, hard... sometimes ugly truth. Regardless of how 'embarrassing' it may be to previous administrations.
Give out all the 'classified' information about 'Roswell' and the Kennedy assassinations. What F.D.R. knew about Pearl Harbor or secret deals between Reagan and Iran. All that crap... if it is about military radiation tests on small towns in Kansas in the 1950s lead to high rates of cancer or weapons deals with Saddam Hussein, put it all out there and quit giving that 'National security' bullshit line. The wreckage in Roswell, N.M. in the 1950s has no National Security implications in 2006. Release all the videos siezed on September 11, 2001 as well as place all of the wreckage from whatever hit the Pentagon on public display... end the speculation.
Clear the air... get rid of the suspecion. Start off new.
...
Then, hold himself to the very same scrutiny to make sure he does what's best for America... but, not at the expense of America. As we have learned... it is NOT in America's best interest to arm, fund, train and supply fundamentalist Islamic terrorist to fight against our enemies. We need to take the high road if we expect others to respect and follow us.
We know we've done some shitty things in the past. Pretending they didn't happen or lying about them doesn't make us the Good Guys. Let's own up to our mistakes, accept the responsibility, learn from them and move forward, vowing never to repeat them in the future. We are America, people... let's try acting like it for a change.

polaris

reborncareerist wrote:

Statisically speaking, close-minded posts are more likely to come from that demographic. Its not because the left is "wrong" ... Its because Bush polarizes people on both ends, making them prone to rash statements.

Also, these posts make me laugh, because they are intended to goad "Bushies" into defending bad actions on the part of the U.S. government ... Based on my experience/observation (wasting too much time on here, probably), many of the people on the right here are also fed up with Bush's policies. Who is going to come on here and say that this man isn't a terrorist, and that he deserves to be sheltered? I guess no one, now that I've made a big deal about it ... But hopefully you get what I mean ...

ha! ... i hope you're not a statistician!! ... cuz in the same token i could say statistically speaking more open-minded posts are gonna come from the "left" based on your logic ...

these posts aren't about goading bushies - you know for a fact that there are many here who still support this president and that if an election is held today they would STILL vote for him ... these posts are aimed at showing the brutal hypocrisy this (and many other) administrations have governed by ... for each person on the "right" who would admit this guy is a terrorist there is someone who probably will not want to hold their country accountable for it and continue to support a PR campaign that aims to portray america as the righteous ... well, these posts aim to debunk that myth ...

Vedderlution_Baby

reborncareerist wrote:

OK, someone's got to say it, and it might as well be me.
Most of the people who make blanket statements on here are NOT unequivocal supporters of the Bush government. Sure, there are a few. But most people prone to making "blind" comments are on the other end of the political spectrum. I think its telling that most on the "right" here either haven't commented or have come right out and said that this guy is indeed a terrorist.
Keep waiting, in other words.

I'm just waiting for a troll to show up and do it's work. I could list a couple of examples but I'd have to send it in a PM.

rebornFixer

polaris wrote:

ha! ... i hope you're not a statistician!! ... cuz in the same token i could say statistically speaking more open-minded posts are gonna come from the "left" based on your logic ...

You could say that, and quite possibly you would be right. You don't have to be a statistician to see the obvious.

mammasan

reborncareerist wrote:

Also, these posts make me laugh, because they are intended to goad "Bushies" into defending bad actions on the part of the U.S. government ... Based on my experience/observation (wasting too much time on here, probably), many of the people on the right here are also fed up with Bush's policies. Who is going to come on here and say that this man isn't a terrorist, and that he deserves to be sheltered? I guess no one, now that I've made a big deal about it ... But hopefully you get what I mean ...

I don't see topics or posts like these as goading expedition. I see this more as discussing the hypocrisy of our government. Something like the Posada case transends party affiliation. This one case spans 7 different administrations all of them just as guilty as the next.